Free Will is a Delusion

Dan Rowden:
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Sadly, you have demonstrated thus far that you don't really know what it means to be intellectual. I suspect you mean well, but you need to think about it a lot more than you have.
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I never said I was an intellectual, I said I was "over-educated" :P To me, that can very easily turn into a flaw (and end up being counter productive) as your rigid thinking shows quite clearly.

Dan Rowden:
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I think it's a kind of arrogance to assume that our brains are now "ultimately developed" and that there's nothing we can't understand.
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Ok, so has anyone actually expressed that view?
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Yes... unless I'm misunderstanding your whole point. Are you or are you not, dismissing even the *possibility* of free will? If you're not, if you're just 99% certain it doesn't exist, then I have no interest in trying to convince you otherwise at this point. It's simply the 100% certainty mind-set I'm arguing against.

You can ignore this last part if you're willing to concede even a 1% margin of error... but if not...

Dan Rowden:
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Then you will have to have a problem with them because I will not pretend to merely believe what I know.
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Well this is probably where I, like Celador, realize that you have an agenda - and it's not the search of the truth (or even a closer approximation of it) it's the imposition of *your truth*. Like as not, you're the believer... and what's more, you're a "true believer" ;)

I believe just two things.

We are what we are.

What is, is.

Everything else is open for discussion, as far as I'm concerned. Your beliefs, however much you like to delude yourself into calling them facts, go much much deeper than mine. But perhaps an intellectual like yourself can't quite bring yourself to accept that you really only *know* very little... I've had my fair share of these types of "unyielding on topics of dogma" discussions with Christians on this board in the past, haha, but I never thought I'd get to have them with a "philosopher".

Pity though, because some of your fellow intellectuals did manage to be both smart AND wise.

Didn't Socrates say

"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

?

Ahh but of course, you're so much smarter than him, I'm sure... ignorant fool, he didn't know anything, and he admitted as much!

:P

[link to pespmc1.vub.ac.be]

It Seems Naturyl Doesn't Know How To Play Nice With Others.

Before anyone else wastes time in a discussion with Naturyl, you should check the link to see what kind of fruit basket he is first.

... no and not at all... haven't you been paying attention... and again?

And argument?????... lol, now that's really rich... pray tell what 'argument' are you talking about?
Are you like maybe feeling one of them causal and/or circumstantial kinda e-ventings of yours... and argumentively speaking, of course of course?
Or... are you still just pissin' in the wind, and so to speak? And I only say that cuz if you were to take look at what my response up there is to... you may just find yourself in the position of accusing others of exactly what you are so very feebly attempting to do to them... odd ain't it... and yet too then, what is there to make any sort of an argument of your on-going rantings and ravings there... eh?
Hell-o... anyone home?

... hell-o... anybody home, lol???????????

Maybe you ought to have been taking your own advice there... eh? And I do mean really, if ya can't take it then maybe you shouldn't be dishin' it out... and don't ya think?

Or, lol, even better yet... why don't we just all go back and have a look at your postings? That ought to do it, and don't ya think?

And heck, I'm still waiting on ya for to just answer one of my questions that was put to ya... go figure, huh?

Do you like have one of them shortened attention span kinda thingies, and maybe?

... me dear boy, lol, and again, how very cavalier "you" be with "your" usage of "your" worded issuings... and I do say, and most whole-heartedly I do... tsk, and tsk.

Simply put... by its very nature each and every consciousness "is" a most particular, peculiar, lol, and quite unique focus of awareness... which 'will' experience any possible realities through its very own characteristics. This is the way that diversity plays itself out... or, seeks its 'value' potential, and if ya so like.
So... when I hear you say 'reality', to me it is like the story of the blind man touching but a part of the elephant, and yet thinking that he has grasped the whole. And I am sad to say but I do think/feel/know that your idea of reality is but a very small part, or portion, of what I would term reality... and that is coming from just the limitations I've seen you imposing upon yourself here. You sir, are no seeker of truth.... and that's an ouch for us all too.

And I would suggest that you try expanding upon yourself maybe a tad. Try putting aside all of those convenient labels o'yours, and maybe really take a gooder look at your thoughts for (of) you? Then.... please to tell me just what dualites... and more.... you may find there?

Sorry... that was me up there... I must've timed out.

... in other words, you are just being 'silly', and as you put it... and ... you didn't get it... right?

It is not a threat to your rather immature ego if you don't get something, and it's always okay to ask... and cuz all asking really means... is that you don't get it... get it?

And to... in-sane might just be quite gooder for ya too... and if ya just maybe stop and think about it.... and causally speaking even, of course of course, lol.... go ahead just give it a bit of a try.

your number identifies you, and I enjoy reading posts of yours where you're not 'yep yep yo-ing' your way through them.

Zaphod and the others are in denial

its all about emotion - they cant take the truth of the fact that you cant find the origin of your thoughts therefore theres no free will - so what they do is go into emotional denial and this thread, which is like arguing weather or not 2 + 2 = 4 turns into an 11 page thread fo trash because of that emotional denial.

they are trying to say that this thread is some sort of philosophical debate of options, because of emotional denial

it is not. its a fact that has been stated, because you dont control the origin of your thoughts. this is all that beeds to be said, yet people will keep replying with nonsense because of their denial.

And how do you arrive at that rather limiting, and empirically b'held conclusion o'yours?
Do you not have the eyes for to see and/or the ears for to hear... what's wrong with you, lol?
Please to show me one of 'your' actions and/or one of 'your' words that has no purpose?

... only in 'your' reality, lol... eh?

You arent making any sense and thinking this is opinions of philisophy. its not.

You dont control the origin of your thoughts which is what leads to your choices, therefore technically there is no free will. stop the garbage posts.

... please then... and really too... holler at me whenever you see that I am doing that... and would ya? I would really appreciate it.

... yeah, that's the ticket, lol... "let's have an open discussion but if you don't see it my way than you are in denial."

Hmmm... and where oh where have I ever run into that kind of crap before... oh that's right, it's that 'if you don't go along with me you die' kinda crap again... OY!

As Paradox Priest in the Church of the Divine Uncertainty and Immaculate Mystery, I decree the following:

"You create your own reality till shit happens, then it's god's fault...."

deal

... this is simply not true at all... and don't ya get it yet that that's what we're saying here, lol... hell-o!
And then if you know that to be true, then show me the origin of your thoughts please?

And too... if you were to really look out there, and into our dear Ma Nature... and all of the rest of them universes out there (in here), you'd find that it's not at all about control... control is man made shit... it's all about flow... and even them scientists now know that one... energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Energy simply changes form... and two, all energy flows along the paths of least resistance.

Soooo, get over it...and yourself too.

Now... where's that origin of thought... and please.

LOL! Precisely.

And when a debate doesn't go their way, the immature start name calling.

... I like that one... but, and kinda sad to say... I also thinks it's been a bit overly abused too, lol.

... I sure hear ya Kay... and I just really don't get it at all. What is all that 'making others out to be somehow less in order for me to feel better about me' stuff about anyways?

Ya know... guy! I mean, I can understand the immaturity stuff, and cuz we are all still learning and growing and all that gooder stuff... but that spoiled little brat immaturity stuff?????... I don't know... if just seems to be so very strong now-a-days. I'm sorry... and for going on and on like that... it just hurts is all.

[link to www.dhushara.com]

Didn't our resident self appointed geniuses read the link I posted? It PROVES your little laws do not apply to consciousness.
You cannot apply a law based on Quantum mechanics to something that lies outside the laws of Quantum mechanics.
Consciousness does not fit within the framework. Until such time as it does, and someone reconciles the problem, your little conundrum does not apply. Of course this will never happen but I leave you with that little straw to clutch at.

Read the link. The author attempts to build a quantum consciousness and does a pretty good job of explaining why it doesn't work.

In deference to the simple minded "geniuses" here 2+2=5

Yep, 2+2 does equal 5 for the "free will" faithful. Whether it's god, consciousness, or the kitchen sink, they always find some way to preserve their pet delusions. 2+2=4 is not comforting or ego-gratifying enough for them. No, they need magic and invisible friends and eternal life and "free will." And they will say and do anything necessary to have them.

One can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.

Read the link.

So just when we have had enough of religious clones and their tiring, provincial, pedantic and tedious ways of discussing ultimate truth and reality - enter the philosophers - the new boys on the block - self assured and loaded with brain cells to spare - shooting holes in anyone's and everyone's positions as if we were suddenly elected the village idiots and they the elite intelligencia, charged with preserving the mantle of truth for all mankind.

Anyone notice the similarities in their take-no-prisoners approach to what they believe to be true? I

It is their way or the highway.


Yet the irony is just as palpable on their side of the hubris highway as on the religious side - as these philosopher kings elevate and defend a selected philosophical construct as sacrosanct, ignoring perhaps the fact that others of equal renown - such as existentialism - has personal choice/free will as its centerpiece.


But we are the idiots I guess for suggesting free will as a maxim is facile as to be laughable.

I have news for you guys.

You can debate and defend all you want and flash your intellectual acumen as some sort of badge of superiority if you wish, but I am telling you that YOU are wrong.


As a non-philosopher I may carry no sway with you guys - saddled with a paltry genius level IQ neophyte with an ivy league level education - but all that matters not a wit to me for it has naught to do with who I am, what I am and what I know to be in reality.


So continue to lift your legs on the rabble as if we are consigned for eternity looking up at you.


You too will know truth ultimately, but just as your Christian brothers, it will be AFTER you pass on that you finally discover that your pet models of reality are just that.

2 whats plus 2 whats?

mind you numbers don't really exist anywhere outside the human mind...they are symbols representing a value and therefore useless unless assigned value.

2 lemons plus 2 lemons can equal 5 ounces of lemon juice


if you think i'm being trite...think again.

it is a matter of perception..ESPECIALLY when referring to free will. which, in this thread you are.

... nicely put.

"You can debate and defend all you want and flash your intellectual acumen as some sort of badge of superiority if you wish, but I am telling you that YOU are wrong.
"

So, let me get this straight. You bash us for asserting that others are wrong and then proceed to announce that WE are wrong. Okie-dokie...



BTW, the fact that you think we are wrong implies that you consider your own "intellectual acumen" to be be superior to ours. Incidentally, the same is true of everyone who disagrees with anyone else. There would be no reason to disagree with anyone unless you feel that you know better than they do. So guess what?