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Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?

 
Truth-finder
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08/13/2006 05:40 PM
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Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
It seems to me that the salvation and atonement doctrines of Christianity came about because the Catholic Church found out that religion could be run for a profit and control the masses. One could only 'go to heaven' or 'be absolved of sin' if they went through the religious hierarchy of the Church (and contributed to the coffers). They hated the Gnostic Christians, who knew that divine union could be experienced directly, without the aid of the priesthood.

Does anyone else feel that Christianity has essentially become a Salvation Cult? I tend to think that most people here in GLP and freethinkers are really Gnostic Christians at heart. To them, following the example of Jesus' life and listening to his teachings are more paramount than believing in his sacrificial death and atonement for humanity.

Any comments on this from you guys?

Truth-finder
Manticore

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08/13/2006 05:49 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
What the early Church did to their rivals was absolutely despicable, even worse than what the Romans used to do to them. The brutal persecution and eventual genocide of the Cathars during the Inquisition is particularly notable.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

They treated the Gnostics in much the same way, although some Gnostic sects have managed to survive until the present, mainly because they're located far away from major centres of Christianity.
Messenger
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08/13/2006 05:49 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
I'm a former Roman Catholic of 26 years. I was Born-Again at age 26, I'm now 64. Catholic Doctine is the same as it has always been, SALVATION BY good works, the sacremnets, extra grace, and so on. It is basiclly a cult type church.

However, TRUE CHRISTIANTY is strickly of GRACE. God's Grace through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. We are forgiven by the BLOOD Jesus shed once and for all on the cross.

Yes, we need to live good lives, but we all fail to be "perfect."

Therefore, Almighty God GAVE us JESUS. He has obtained eternal life for all who accept HIM as their SAVIOR!!!!! hf
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 05:55 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Salvation by good works makes a lot more sense than salvation by grace.
Truth-finder (OP)
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08/13/2006 05:59 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Messenger,

What about all those 5 billion people who weren't born into the Christian faith? Are they not 'saved' if they don't believe in Jesus as Savior. If you weren't predisposed to this belief, none of Christian theology would be self-evident. I think religions try hard at getting you to believe things that aren't observeable or verifiable with your senses or intuition.

Truth-finder
The Lilac Fairy (nli)
User ID: 116263
Singapore
08/13/2006 06:20 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
It seems to me that the salvation and atonement doctrines of Christianity came about because the Catholic Church found out that religion could be run for a profit and control the masses. One could only 'go to heaven' or 'be absolved of sin' if they went through the religious hierarchy of the Church (and contributed to the coffers). They hated the Gnostic Christians, who knew that divine union could be experienced directly, without the aid of the priesthood.

Does anyone else feel that Christianity has essentially become a Salvation Cult? I tend to think that most people here in GLP and freethinkers are really Gnostic Christians at heart. To them, following the example of Jesus' life and listening to his teachings are more paramount than believing in his sacrificial death and atonement for humanity.

Any comments on this from you guys?

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082


You hit the nail right on the head,
Truth-finder.
Gnostics know that there is absolutely no need for any 'middleman'.
Early 'christians' usurped the pristine teachings of Jesus, metamorphosing them into something quite unrecognisable to His true companions.
Something a little funny, though:
Most of the Gnostics I know today were once adherents of Roman Catholicism.
LF

rose
Truth-finder (OP)
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08/13/2006 06:39 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Lilac,

Ya gotta love those Gnostics. They just 'knew'!

Maybe you, me, Manticore and others here at GLP were some of the Cathars who were burned alive back in the 12th century. I do feel kind of a connection with them.

Truth-finder
Ne1

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08/13/2006 06:46 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Finding some really good stuff on this...
"If the woman [the soul] had not separated from the man
[the spirit], she would not die with the man.
His separation became the beginning of death.
Because of this, Christ came to repair the separation
which was from the beginning, and again unite the two,
and to give life to those who died
as a result of the separation and unite them."
- The Gospel of Philip 70:9-22
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.

Mark Twain
Æon

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08/13/2006 06:54 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Salvation by good works makes a lot more sense than salvation by grace.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2298


You will know them by their good works...
Ave Gæ , morituri te salutamus!
Ne1

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08/13/2006 06:58 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Perhaps not one thing alone but by their powers combined, I am Captain Planet!....oh wait sorry got carried away there. =) But seriously "faith" should naturaly produce good works, perhaps makinf one elligible for Grace, like if you don't pick a number you'll never be called...simplistic i know...
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.

Mark Twain
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 07:03 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Catholics are basically conservative as a group and thereby arrogant by nature. This is the root of their problems.
The Lilac Fairy (nli)
User ID: 116263
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08/13/2006 07:09 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Lilac,

Maybe you, me, Manticore and others here at GLP were some of the Cathars who were burned alive back in the 12th century. I do feel kind of a connection with them.

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082


LOL. Yep, it wouldn't surprise me at all.
Many have reconnected.
LF

rose
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 07:11 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
ac2298, do you really believe anyone can save themselves by their good works? Have you ever met one person, no matter how many good works they do, who has never done bad ones? Just one bad thing separates you from God. The only atonement for sin and separation from God had to come from a sinless person. Therefore, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus Christ, God Himself, became a man to die for our sins. His was the ONLY sacrifice that could pay for the sins of mankind
Kay

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08/13/2006 07:12 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
It seems to me that the salvation and atonement doctrines of Christianity came about because the Catholic Church found out that religion could be run for a profit and control the masses. One could only 'go to heaven' or 'be absolved of sin' if they went through the religious hierarchy of the Church (and contributed to the coffers). They hated the Gnostic Christians, who knew that divine union could be experienced directly, without the aid of the priesthood.

Does anyone else feel that Christianity has essentially become a Salvation Cult? I tend to think that most people here in GLP and freethinkers are really Gnostic Christians at heart. To them, following the example of Jesus' life and listening to his teachings are more paramount than believing in his sacrificial death and atonement for humanity.

Any comments on this from you guys?

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082


Of course not.

The Old Testament, which has NEVER been in the hands of the Catholic Church - it has been safely behind synagogue doors - has many direct references to atonement, sacrificial death, in fact everything that Jesus said and did was prophecied in the Old Testament.
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Kay

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08/13/2006 07:14 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Like this:


Isaiah 53


1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



==============


There you go, Jesus Christ's mission and purpose, written 500 years before HIs birth.
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 07:22 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
ac2298, do you really believe anyone can save themselves by their good works? Have you ever met one person, no matter how many good works they do, who has never done bad ones? Just one bad thing separates you from God. The only atonement for sin and separation from God had to come from a sinless person. Therefore, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus Christ, God Himself, became a man to die for our sins. His was the ONLY sacrifice that could pay for the sins of mankind
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 130373



Sheep and Goats parable. That is where the truth lies. If you can comprehend that, then you can comprehend how salvation really works. We will inherit the heaven we deserve, no more or less.
Kay

User ID: 72054
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08/13/2006 07:25 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Messenger,

What about all those 5 billion people who weren't born into the Christian faith? Are they not 'saved' if they don't believe in Jesus as Savior. If you weren't predisposed to this belief, none of Christian theology would be self-evident. I think religions try hard at getting you to believe things that aren't observeable or verifiable with your senses or intuition.

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082



Actually, Jesus told us that a person is accountable for the information that they do have, however little or however much that is.

The Bible tells us that we are all born with 'a priori' (instinctive)knowledge - that just by watching the stars, the sky, the earth, we will know His nature. Perhaps we understand forgiveness with the coming of Spring, we understand that God has a plan for our lives by watching the constellations. Perhaps we understand judgment when we witness disaster.


Here is a passage from Job, the oldest book in the Bible. At that time, there was no 'knowledge' of Jesus Christ, no Judaism, or any organized known religion to explain it to him:


25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

=============


In this oldest passage, you find Christianity - thousands of years before Jesus Christ was born, before a Bible existed to tell us His name.

So, the answer is that basic knowledge is available, and however much you understand of that knowledge, you will be responsible for on the day the Lord calls you home.
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Kay

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08/13/2006 07:29 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Salvation by good works makes a lot more sense than salvation by grace.


You will know them by their good works...
 Quoting: Æon



Actually, that is a misquote.

It is:

You will know them by their works.

(Good or bad).
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Æon

User ID: 122996
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08/13/2006 07:34 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Actually, that is a misquote.

It is:

You will know them by their works.

(Good or bad).
 Quoting: Kay


I wasn't quoting. I don't care much for the term 'fruit'. And I guess you don't either...

The fact is, however, James is a thorn in the sides of many false Jesusians...
Ave Gæ , morituri te salutamus!
Kay

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08/13/2006 07:35 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Actually, that is a misquote.

It is:

You will know them by their works.

(Good or bad).


I wasn't quoting. I don't care much for the term 'fruit'. And I guess you don't either...
 Quoting: Æon



Well, then. You're a bible scholar and didn't even know it! I'm impressed!
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Æon

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08/13/2006 07:37 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Well, then. You're a bible scholar and didn't even know it! I'm impressed!
 Quoting: Kay


I've probably already forgotten more than you'll ever know...

tounge
Ave Gæ , morituri te salutamus!
Kay

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08/13/2006 07:39 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Well, then. You're a bible scholar and didn't even know it! I'm impressed!


I've probably already forgotten more than you'll ever know...

tounge
 Quoting: Æon

lala
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Æon

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08/13/2006 07:42 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
lala
 Quoting: Kay


I.C.H.Y. Witchy...
Ave Gæ , morituri te salutamus!
Truth-finder (OP)
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08/13/2006 08:04 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
The only thing that one needs to be 'saved' from is the ignorance of their divine nature, pure and simple. We live in an illusion of separation from our Source (God). Once we die and return to a less dense, higher frequency plane of existence, we'll know that we were never really separated at all from the All That Is.

The notion that Jesus died for our sins and makes the connection for us, I'm afraid to say, is just hollow religious dogma that the Church has used to control the masses.

It is much better to know, than to believe.

Truth-finder
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 08:54 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
jesus came to make all men and women, free. he opened to door to have open contact with the Father. he bridged the gap and it never has to be done again. we don't keep our salvation, it is jesus' job to keep us. god was/is willing that none perish.

catholic church goes against of a lot of what jesus said but yes, religion can be used to confine, have power over, keep people in darkness. it's also money making businesses.
Anonymous Coward
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08/13/2006 09:34 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Salvation is a myth.


Sin is a myth.


Redemption is a myth.


Atonement is a myth.


To discuss these myths at all is to lend them a measure of viability, whether potential or actual.


We need nothing.


We are eternal creatures.


End of mythology.
Truth-finder (OP)
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08/13/2006 09:53 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Well said, 117166.
Kay

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08/13/2006 09:56 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
The only thing that one needs to be 'saved' from is the ignorance of their divine nature, pure and simple. We live in an illusion of separation from our Source (God). Once we die and return to a less dense, higher frequency plane of existence, we'll know that we were never really separated at all from the All That Is.

The notion that Jesus died for our sins and makes the connection for us, I'm afraid to say, is just hollow religious dogma that the Church has used to control the masses.

It is much better to know, than to believe.

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082



Oh, really? Can you explain to me how it is that anyone can control me after I realize that all my sins (past, present and future) have all been paid for, and therefore I can do ANYTHING I want to do without fear of punishment of any kind?


Wouldn't that make me 'out-of-control'?
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
Truth-finder (OP)
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08/13/2006 10:18 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Kay, first of all it's not God's purpose to judge, it's to create. The Divine spark of creation rests within all of us so what purpose would it serve the Creator to judge part of itself as unworthy? I think a big hangup most Christians have is that they believe we are physically separated from God (Source). WE ARE NOT. WE ARE ALL ONE.

This business of 'original sin' was largely concocted by St. Augustine in the 4th century when he didn't have an answer to why some people were born into poor circumstances while others weren't. Then they went on to make the Adam and Eve story literal and not allegorical. They claimed that Adam fouled it all up when he disobeyed 'God' and therefore Jesus had to recify the situation.

I wish more Christians would read the historical background of their theologies. Once you start studying objectively you can really start to see a clear picture develop as to what methods the Church used to keep the masses in spiritual bondage.

Truth-finder
The Lilac Fairy (nli)
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08/13/2006 10:37 PM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
Kay, first of all it's not God's purpose to judge, it's to create. The Divine spark of creation rests within all of us so what purpose would it serve the Creator to judge part of itself as unworthy? I think a big hangup most Christians have is that they believe we are physically separated from God (Source). WE ARE NOT. WE ARE ALL ONE.

This business of 'original sin' was largely concocted by St. Augustine in the 4th century when he didn't have an answer to why some people were born into poor circumstances while others weren't. Then they went on to make the Adam and Eve story literal and not allegorical. They claimed that Adam fouled it all up when he disobeyed 'God' and therefore Jesus had to recify the situation.

I wish more Christians would read the historical background of their theologies. Once you start studying objectively you can really start to see a clear picture develop as to what methods the Church used to keep the masses in spiritual bondage.

Truth-finder
 Quoting: Truth-finder 118082


Truth-finder
I agree with you wholeheartedly on many points but beg to differ on a major one.
Gnostics know that there are TWO creations: The Divine Creation and the False creation.
The children of the True Divine creation bear the spark of the "Divine" but those of the counterfeit creation do not. The latter have been given the option many times to forsake the false and aspire to the 'True'. It is their choice.
Jesus did not come to 'redeem'.
Jesus came to awaken the sleepers and remind them of their heritage.....to get their 'House' into order, so to speak.
Jesus was murdered because he spoke loudly against the 'religious' of the time.
The very words of Jesus today are not a teaching......they are A FORCE IN ACTION.
LF
rose
Anonymous Coward
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08/14/2006 12:37 AM
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Re: Did the Catholic Church turn Christianity into a 'Salvation Cult'?
The term "false creation " can only be an oxymoron.


Interesting metaphysical mythology.


Just goes to show that there is mythology on both sides of the fence.


We have nothing to awaken to over and above our own eternal natures.


Master beings such as Esu (if indeed he existed) was one in a continuous line that showed us that - as he was - so we are - and ever more shall be.





GLP