God's chosen people :ROTFLMGDMFAO:

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Gaarder clarifies view on Israel, Jews:

"I evidently have been misunderstood by many due to the literary technique I used when writing the op-ed about “God’s chosen people,” and I therefore find it necessary to return to the Aftenposten op-ed space with an attempt to clarify."

[link to sirocco.blogsome.com]

Aftenposten:

Hate mail and dialogue
[link to www.aftenposten.no]

Gaarder's article 'a hope for peace'
[link to www.aftenposten.no]

The Jewish people did not welcome Jesus as the Messiah. They were blinded by God for a reason.

The rejection of Jesus by the Jews allowed Salvation to go out to the rest of the world; the gentiles, that's you and I. This was God's plan.

The opportunity we have been blessed with though has a time limit. The door will eventually shut on those who refuse to see their need of a Saviour, those who refuse to acknowledge their condition. We are lost sinners.

God has a covenant with Abraham.

God is not finished with Israel.

God's word is sure.

The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to bible prophecy. Most other endtime prophecies depend on the Jewish people living in Israel and not scattered amongst the Gentiles. Israel has not existed as a nation since hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. Israel was established on May 15, 1948.

• Moses predicted that the Jews would be scattered throughout the world and persecuted as has occurred for the last three thousand years and that one day the Jews would return to God and to the land of Israel which he promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

• The fig tree is used by Hosea and Jeremiah to refer to Jewish people.

Matthew 24

32 Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;

33 even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that he is near, right at the door.

• Israel the fig tree has put forth its leaves and been reborn as a nation therefore the coming of Christ draws near.

ac 116360, that was beautifully worded and the total truth. Thank you for posting that. There seems to be so much Jew/Israel hatred on this board. I hope your post will help some see that God is not done with Israel. God Bless

I hope the AntiChrist comes and sends you hook nosed kikes straight to Hell where you belong :5:

Warning: this post is only for people interested in Bible prophecy and theology:

ac116360,
Regarding the regathering of physical Israel and its restoration as a nation, how do you explain the many passages that describe that as occuring not during this age, but at the beginning of the Millenium -- i.e., after Christ's return? Fore example, Jeremiah 23:3 states:

"And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase ..."

This passage continues through verse 8, and describes it as a time when the Branch of David, the King (Christ) will reign over them and the earth (verse 5); it describes it as a time when Judah shall be saved, and Israel will call upon YHWH. That certainly cannot apply to the present time.

Another example: Micah chapter 4:

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more ...

"IN THAT DAY, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will GATHER her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever."

------------------------------

Again, it states that Israel will be regathered and made a nation at the time that YHWH will reign over them. Obviously, that is not now.

Also Jeremiah 30:

Verse 3: "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I WILL CAUSE THEM TO RETURN TO THE LAND that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."

WHEN will that occur? Verses 6-9:
<> "Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

"For it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY , saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

"But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

-----------------------------------

The regathering is to occur at the time when David will be resurrected and Christ rules them -- that is not yet.

Continuing in verses 10-11:
"Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

"For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

--------------------------

See the entire chapter of Jeremiah 31. It presents a Millenial picture of Israel, and portrays Christ Himself leading them out of captivity in that context.
<>Notice Ezekiel 11:17-20:
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even GATHER you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, AND I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAND OF ISRAEL. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

<>"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

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When? It clearly says that God will give them the land of Israel concurrently with giving them a new heart and new spirit.

Ezekiel 20:33 state that Israel will be brought out of captivity at the time that God will RULE them:

"As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. <>

"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. "

Continuing a few verses later:
"For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things. <>" I will accept you with your sweet savour, WHEN I BRING YOU OUT FROM THE PEOPLE, AND GATHER YOU out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; AND I WILL BE SANCTIFIED IN YOU BEFORE THE HEATHEN. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed."

-----------------------------

None of that can apply to the supposed "return" that some imagine has already occurred for Israel.

See also Ezekiel 34:11-31 where the return from captivity is beautifully pictured. Read the entire passage. Notice especially v. 23-24 for the time setting:

"And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it."

-------------------------------

Also, Joel 2:3 -- where is Israel is portrayed as still scattered among all nations at the time of the "battle of Armageddon."
"I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

There are many other passages. But to conclude, I must agree with some of the torah Jews who deny that the modern secular state that calls itself Israel fulfills the scriptural prophecies regarding the ingathering from the diaspora and the restortion of Israel. What exists there now is a humanly motivated attempt to restore Israel by modern day secular political zionists. The genuine regathering spoken of in scripture is to occur AFTER Christ's return, by the agency of Christ Himself. The prophecies make this clear. No other interpretation is possible, as far as literal interpretations go.

There's no denying that a secular, godless state exists in the Middle East calling itself "Israel" -- obviously whatever occurs is by God's allowance and plan. But it is NOT the regathering spoken of in the OT prophecies. The prophecies of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 speak of the geographical area of Judea; they speak of a temple; they speak of the city of Jerusaelm being encompassed by armies -- but they do not make reference to a nation-state of Israel as if being God-ordained. Neither did Israel truly exist as an independent nation at the time of the typical fulfillment in 70AD.

What is transpiring in the region of Palestine for the last hundred years, especially since 1948, will obviously play into end-of-the-age events, but it is not God's regathered nation of physical Israel described by the biblical prophets. The ruler and motivator of all nations at this time is the Adversary.

Well said 120949,

The only thing 1948 points to is the abomination of desolation set up.

I would take that to mean that the modern secular state of so-called Israel (which in no way fits the OT prophetic desription of Israel after the TRUE ingathering from the diaspora) is part of a satanic buildup to the beast/false prophet prophecies which include the abomination of desolation in the book of Daniel. It might also explain why the book of Revelation (Rev. 11:8) describes end-time Jerusalem as "spiritual Sodom and Egypt" -- not as "the Holy Land" like so many evangelicals do in their false clinging to physical representations of spiritual truths.

But beyond that, my main point is that the OT prophecies regarding Israel returning to the land and being led out of captivity by Christ (Moses was a type of Christ) occur at a time when Christ is present, David resurrected, and the house of Israel being given a new heart and spirit, and YHWH ruling over a spiritual, peaceful, and prosperous land of Israel ... with Israel being a beacon to all nations. To try and stretch and distort these prophecies in an attempt to make them apply to what has happened in the last 80 years or so in the land of Palestine by the zionist political movement is absurd.

A side point is that some of those OT prophecies also refer to some wars and rebellions going on even after Christ returns and Israel is regathered, during the earlier period of the Millenium.

The Olivet prophecy in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (which also corresponds to portions of the book of Daniel) had a typical fulfillment in 70AD. Israel was not a nation then -- there were Jews living in the area and in Jerusalem, but Israel as a genuine, independent nation-state ordained by God did not exist in 70AD -- they lived under the Roman yoke.

By the same token, nor does Israel exist as God's legitimate nation-state during the anti-typical end-time fulfillment of the Olivet prophecy. There are some Jews and others living there now, but many are still in diaspora, scattered throughout the world (some of them living peacefully and unharrassed in Iran, for example ... and of course many in the United States and elsewhere -- and I'm not going to get into the Khazarian/Ashkenazi debate at this time).

If the OT prophecies regarding the ingathering and the restoration of the physical kingdom of Israel are to be taken literally, they occur by Christ's agency upon His return, not in 1948.

Agreed.

Also the House of Judah and House of Israel (two sticks) will join as one once again (EZ. 37) at the coming of the King.

Regardless of how it may seem to you it should have been accomplished, the fact is that Israel has been reborn, and it happened as prophesied, in a single day.
I don't believe your standpoint is valid because many scriptures covering the same incident describe it differently.And your "scholarship" is more than a little sloppy.
For instance, in your example from Joel,you don't even have the correct number for the scripture.It is from Joel 3, not Joel 2, and it does NOT in any way indicate that Israel is still scattered at the time of Armegeddon.It clearly states the exact opposite, that Armegeddon takes place AFTER the restoration of Israel.Read it yourself:Joel 3 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Joel 3
The Nations Judged
1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink.

4 "Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. 5 For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples. 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland.

7 "See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away." The LORD has spoken.

9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.

10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
"I am strong!"

11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.
Bring down your warriors, O LORD!

12 "Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.

13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!"

14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.

16 The LORD will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the sky will tremble.
But the LORD will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Blessings for God's People
17 "Then you will know that I, the LORD your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
18 "In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the LORD's house
and will water the valley of acacias.

19 But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.

20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.

21 Their bloodguilt, which I have not pardoned,
I will pardon."
The LORD dwells in Zion!

Also worth noting in a similar vein is that despite the railings of Jew Haters, there is nothing anywhere in the Word that indicates the blessings are held in abeyance if the Jews read Talmud.Talmud, by the way, is what the so called "Torah True Jews" base their wrongheaded opposition to Israel on, not Torah at all.They call themselves Torah True to hide that fact.The Torah they refer to is Oral Torah, better known as Talmud.

Yes, everyone always seems to overlook the fact that Judah was only one of twelve tribes -- there was a northern kingdom of ten tribes ("Israel") as well as the southern kingdom composed of Judah/Benjamin. "Judah" and "Israel" are not synonymous. In the larger context all those of Judah are of Israel ... but not all those of Israel are of Judah. Judah was only one of Jacob's (name later changed to Israel) twelve sons.

On the other hand, there is some evidence in the book of Acts that whatever portions of all the various tribes who had returned to the Palestine area by that time were all included under the general nomenclature of "Jew" or "Judah."

But certainly in the OT and in the OT prophecies, the "House of Israel" and "the House of Judah" are distinguished from each other. The former went into Assyrian captivity in 721BC, the latter into Babylonian captivity in 585BC.

As far as the "lost ten tribbes," I do not subscribe to the British Israelism interpretation.

Truth!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that *whoever* believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

380,
I have read many of your posts ... I have always disagreed with the tone and content of what you say. I won't go into detail ...

Several points:
Excuse me if I inadvertantly put "Joel 2" instead of "Joel 3" in my post -- a simple error, not sloppy scholarship.

You did not address the large bulk of my OT quotations or points ... because you can't. The prophecies plainly say what they say.

I notice also that you resort to the childish and lame "ad hominem" attack of "Jew hater" -- as you almost always do in your posts. Obviously I don't hate Jews or anyone else. But I do love truth ... which is more than I would want to say about you. God will restore the kingdom to physical Israel in His own time and manner, as described in the OT prophecies.

You chose to quibble about one of my references -- Joel 3. Your interpretation is not accurate. The setting is given earlier in the prophecy, in Joel 2, which speaks of "the day of the Lord" and the return of Christ -- that is the general setting of the entire prophecy -- not 1948 AD.

Joel chapter two refers to the "trumpet" being blown, a day of darkness and gloom, clouds and thick darkness, the earth quaking, the sun and moon being darkened, the stars not shining, wonders in heaven and earth; it refers to YHVH thundering at the head of His army, and Israel returning to YHVH, a restoration of Israel in the eyes of the nations, and perfect weather and harvests, His Spirit will be poured out, etc. ...

Then comes chapter three (verse 1):
"IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem ..."

NONE of those events occurred in 1948, or have occured yet, ac 380. "In those days and at that time ..." Your timeline is off. Israel will be restored at that time, when the described conditions of the prophecy (and many parallel prophecies)are fulfilled.

The literal translation of Joel 3:1 is: "For lo, in those days, and in that time, when I turn back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem ..." THAT is when the captivity will end -- not in 1948 ... 58 years ago. None of the events described occurred in 1948. Can't you see that??

The NAS translates Joel 3:1 as: "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem ..."

What does this mean? A parallel verse, speaking of the same event, is Jeremiah 30:3 --

"For behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah ' The LORD says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'"

All of the other passages I quoted in my original post clearly show that this occurs concurrent with Christ's coming and the establishment of the Millenial kingdom, not in 1948. Ignore them all if you will. Was David resurrected in 1948 and designated king over Israel?!

Another parallel verse to Joel 3:1 is Jeremiah 16:14-15:

"Therefore behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when it will no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from ALL the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers."

Has that happened yet, ac 380?? Most Jews and Israelites are NOT in Palestine today.

If that's not enough evidence, let's continue on to verse 2 of Joel 3:

"I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land. "

This states that at the time God gathers the nations to the valley of Jehoshaphat ... that at that time ... Israel is in a scattered condition among the nations, and the land divided up. If you don't think it says that, then check all of the other references I gave earlier which say it clearly. If one verse is even partially obscure, then cover your ass and check the parallel passages for clarity. This I have done ...

The clincher which shows your interpretation is fallacious, 380, are verses 6-7 of that same chapter of Joel 3, (in your preferred version NIV):

"You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, who took them far from their homeland. But I WILL BRING THEM BACK AGAIN from all these places to which you sold them ..."

Obviously future tense, ac 380. Read it again. As of that time, the regathering will be yet future. Not 1948.

If you read through Joel chapters 2 and 3, the phrase "in that day" or similar verbiage is used -- it refers to the entire period of events surrounding Christ's return, and also to his immediate GENUINE restoration of the physical kingdom to Israel, and Israel's conversion, with Christ and David present. That did not occur in 1948. I refer you back to my previous posts.

And just as an aside, ac380 ... would you be interested in the apostle Peter's interpretation of Joel 2? He quoted Joel 2:28-32 as having been fulfilled on the first day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given (Acts 2:14-21). He didn't say one word about the restoration of physical land to Israel ... he gave a NON-LITERAL interpretation of Joel 2:28 pertaining to the church and the giving of the Holy Spirit ... heaven forbid ... a non-literal interpretation:

"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women

"I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

But I'm not too sure you're interested in Peter's interpretation, are you, 380? But even if not, I have shown that even a literal interpretation puts the end of the diaspora and the return of Israel during the period of Christ's return ... not in 1948. That was a secular, political, zionist agenda.

Truth hurts, eh 380?

A Godly Jew explains the Satanic Jews
Quote

Hiding and Seeking - A Godly Jew explains the Satanic Jews

From: Menachem Daum
To: Shalom Berger

Subject: Hiding and Seeking

Dear Rabbi Berger,

Despite having spent many years in some of the finest American yeshivas I wish to make it perfectly clear that I am neither a talmid chacham nor a halachic authority. Neither am I a theologian, a scholar or a deep thinker. What I am is simply a grandfather who is deeply concerned about the way my grandchildren are being raised and the world they will, G-d willing, eventually inherit. I try, through the films that I make with my partner, Mr. Oren Rudavsky, to make that world a little less dangerous for them.

Our previous film, A Life Apart Hasidism in America, was an attempt to humanize charedi Jews to the outside word. Millions of Jews and gentiles saw the film on American national public television. I like to think that many viewers came to realize that despite chareidim's strange outward dress and appearance they nonetheless share the audience's basic human desire for loving families, strong communities and lives of meaning. Our most recent film, Hiding and Seeking: Faith and Tolerance After the Holocaust, tells the story of my attempt to humanize the outside world to my charedi kollel sons. Many in the Orthodox world who lauded our first film have serious problems with our newest film. I have been vilified as a self-hating Jew, a traitor to the Jewish people, one who incites pogroms against Jews, etc, etc. I'm sure those making these charges feel genuine righteous indignation. However, I suspect these personal accusations are also meant to discredit the messenger rather than grapple with the troubling implications of the seemingly simple message quoted in the film, "There is one G-d. He created one world. We are all brothers and sisters." General audiences seem to get the film's message. The film has been voted "Best Inter-faith Film of 2004" and was well received at the Barcelona Parliament of World Religions. However, among some Orthodox groups the film's seemingly benign message is seen as an ominous religious threat.

Since this a "personal" film, the story takes place in the charedi Jewish world that I live in. Nonetheless, I don't see this only as a film for charedim, nor do I even see this as only a "Jewish" film. Instead, I see it as a plea for honest self-examination in all monotheistic religions that claim to have a monopoly on G-d's love and truth. To bolster their exclusive claim to Divine favor some religious leaders feel compelled to demean or dehumanize the "other". Of course, they all claim to speak in G-d's name while doing so. Such teachers can be found in radical Islam, fundamentalist Christianity and, sadly, among Orthodox Jews as well. I fervently hope that my film will inspire people of good will in all faiths to look critically at some of their own religious teachers and teachings and to reject those that fail to see the Divinity within all human beings.

I recently came across the acronym FTP, which I'm told stands for "frummer than parents". That probably best describes my two wonderful sons, who indeed are great talmiday chachamim. When I was younger I attended kollel during the day and college in the evenings. However, my sons have rejected all secular higher education. Instead, they have spent many years immersed in Torah study even as they raised their growing families in Israel. In one controversial scene in the film I try to show my sons the danger of extreme insularity by playing a tape of a thundering rabbi who says we have to instill in our children hatred of all goyim. However, I go out of my way to make sure the audience is not left with the impression that this is typical of Orthodox Jews. My older son immediately challenges this pronouncement by saying he has spent 30 years in yeshiva and has never heard such extremist talk. The film further contrast this off-screen hate-mongering voice with an obviously charedi-looking Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach zt"l who is seen on-screen singing to enthusiastic Catholic Poles, " I want you to know, my beautiful friends, don't ever give up on the world. Don't ever give up on any human being, because we are all in G-d's image. Every one of us is so holy. Everyone of us has the capacity to be so good". I believe the audience walks away with the impression that there are more Carlebachs in our midst than hate-mongers. Sadly, however, I know this is dishonest. The hate-mongering rabbi continues to spread his poisonous teaching to thousands of Jewish parents every year while few in our midst are carrying on the message of Reb Shlomo.

Many Orthodox viewers, especially those who are involved in Jewish education, may ask themselves why the film makes such a big deal about one extremist charedi educator. After all, "We are more moderate. We are more modern. We don't preach hatred of the other". Please be brutally honest with yourselves for a moment and think again.

Let me begin with a brief anecdote. A few years ago I watched a play being performed in a well-known Bais Yaakov by my five-year old granddaughter's class. Her class was divided into three groups, each identified by a banner. A little girl dressed as an angel approached the first group, whose banner read "Esau", and asked them to accept the Torah. Being told that the Torah prohibits murder the Esau group refused saying it was in their nature to kill. The angel approached the group whose banner read "Ishmael" who also refused to accept the Torah because it prohibits stealing. Being Ishmael they have to no choice but to steal. The angel finally turns to the "Yisroel" group who accept without question and say, "We will do and we will hear". The parents in attendance were kvelling with pride. I went over to the principal and said told him I was aware that this play was based on well-known Sifri and Medrash. However, I told him, to be honest, I have never been able to understand its meaning. Does it mean that that if I am Esau or Ishmael I have no bechira, no ability to choose goodness? Does that mean that every member of Esau and Ishmael, without exception, is beyond redemption? I told the principal I don't know the answers to these questions but there is one thing I do know for sure. I am absolutely certain my five-year old granddaughter does not have the answers either. All she will walk away with from this play is the simplistic and childlike notion that all goyim are evil. I asked him, "How do we feel when we see little Arab kids in plays that demonize Israelis or Jews?" Needless to say, the principal looked at me as if I had taken complete leave of my senses and quickly excused himself.

Speaking of my own nearly 20 years of Jewish education I never once heard a shiur or discourse about our obligation as Jews to spread the light of heaven to the rest of humanity. Instead I heard countless mussar shmoozin warning me about the moral dangers posed by the hostile and morally reprehensible outside world. I was taught that goyim are my inferiors in every way possible, morally, religiously, and in the eyes of G-d. I was endlessly assured that the outside world was inherently evil and had nothing of value worthy of emulation. (At the time I didn't think to ask, "What about democracy or the rule of law?) In all those years I never once heard a shiur about how we should go about spreading the seven Noachide laws of basic decency to all of mankind. However, I was told that for even the slightest infraction of any of these laws, a goy, unlike a Jew, incurs the penalty of cherev. In those days I accepted this very matter-of-factly without thinking twice about it. But that was long before I saw one of the beheading videos coming out of Iraq and was finally able to visualize what cherev really means.

All Jews, especially educators, who claim allegiance to halacha must grapple with difficult questions dealing with the value of human life. In my film a Jew who was rescued by Polish gentiles during the Holocaust says quite honestly that if the situation had been reversed he would not have done so for a Pole. Some people in the audience gasp and condemn him for his morally questionable response. But halachically, would he have been permitted to risk his live for a goy? Avrohom Zelmanowitz, zt"l, was lauded by President Bush on the evening of 9/11 for not abandoning his paraplegic friend and staying with him until the Twin Towers collapsed. Had Avrohom called his halachic authority and asked if he was permitted to endanger his life for a non-Jew, what would have been the response?

Another question. You hear a thud while you are eating your Shabbos tsulent. You run to the back of your house and peek through your blinds to see your non-Jewish neighbor has fallen off his roof and is laying in a rapidly growing pool of blood. You can return to your meal and no one will ever know what you saw. Are you permitted to violate the Shabbos by calling an ambulance? Ask your halachic authority this question. While you are at it, forget about Shabbos or about putting your own Jewish life in danger. Ask your halachic authority whether we are ever allowed to save a goy on a regular weekday if our inaction will not have adverse consequences for any other Jew?

A friend emailed me a discourse as to whether or not the prohibition against inflicting pain on any living creature applies to a gentile. (See Tzar Baalei Chayim B'Halacha uB'Hagaddah by Yitzchok Nachman Eshkoli, pages 257 to 262). Surprisingly, many halachic authorities hold there is no such prohibition. Even those who say the prohibition applies, do so only with respect to goyim who observe the seven Noachide laws. However, most halachic authorities consider Christianity a form of idolatry and therefore a violation of the Noachide laws. So the conclusion to be drawn seems to be that torture of Christians (other than Unitarians), Buddhists, Hindus and many others is halachically acceptable (other than for the fact that we don't wish to antagonize the goyim amongst whom we live).

Getting back to Hiding and Seeking, none of the above painful questions are explored in the film. So while some may condemn the film as an unwarranted assault on Orthodox Judaism others may consider the film a relatively charitable portrayal. One viewer characterized the film as "a faint cry against the roar of Orthodox hate".

I sincerely hope that some of those Orthodox educators reading this will be kind enough to help me understand those halachic teaching which go against my intuitive moral sensibilities. Lest my subjective sensibilities be too easily dismissed let me note that throughout Genesis we read about people being punished for their actions even though that had no Divine revelation to guide their conduct. How was Cain supposed to know he wasn't supposed to kill Abel? How was the generation of the flood or the Sodomites supposed to know that what they were doing was wrong and would bring such terrible punishment? One must therefore surmise that we have all been granted an intuitive moral sense that recognizes the basic law of all humankind, "that which you don't want done to you, you mustn't do it to others". This seems to be expected of all of us without the need for revelation. So what am I to do when my intuitive moral sensibilities run counter to the texts that I, my children and my grandchildren have been taught to believe in?

What is the solution? I have seen a quote from Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook zt"l to the effect that every hateful or negative image of other traditions that is in our own should now be seen as a mountain we have to climb over as we try to reach G-d. (If there are any Rav Kook scholars out there, I would be grateful for the exact citation and source.) I hope and pray that my children and grandchildren become adept at mountain climbing. I want them to know that we diminish G-d when we demote him to a little tribal deity and fail to see him as a Father who loves all His children.

As Jews we have an obligation to provide a light to the nations. Let us set an example of how to bring an end to the greatest danger we all face; the inter-generational transmission of religious hatred. I can think of no greater mission befitting the continued existence of the Jewish people.

Respectfully,
Menachem Daum

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

Who is the genuine "Israel of God" of the New Testament? A physical nation ... or a spiritual reality composed of "called-out-ones" indwelt by God, i.e., the Church?

Romans 9:6-8:
"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, IT IS NOT THE NATURAL CHILDREN WHO ARE GOD'S CHILDREN, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring ..."

Could anything be more clear?

And who are "the children of the promise?" Galations 3:29: "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Gal. 4:28: "And you brethren [i.e., gentile residents of Galatia] like Isaac, are children of promise."

Romans 4:16: "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."

Galations 3:7-8: "Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: 'All nations will be blessed through you.'"

The Abrahamic covenant? Gal. 3:16: "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say 'and to seeds,' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed,' meaning one person, who is Christ."

That plainly states that the Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in Christ ... not physical Israel. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:28-29)

Paul was despised and hated by the Jews and "christian" judaizers because they could not accept his pronouncement that the special status granted to physical Israel under the Old Covenant was abolished in Christ. Even the other apostles initially had problems with accepting his message and the leading of the Spirit.

And in one of his final epistles, the prison epistle of Ephesians written shortly before he was beheaded in Rome, he stated that the distinction between Jew and Gentile had been erased, and that God had made out of the two, one NEW man. Ephesians 2:11-16:

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

"For he himself is our peace, WHO HAS MADE THE TWO ONE and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was TO CREATE IN HIMSELF ONE *NEW* MAN out of the two, thus making peace, and in this ONE BODY to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."

Notice: a "new man" -- something that had not existed before, a new man out of the two, one new body, a new creation. To cling to distinctions between Israelites and Gentiles is a spiritually immature retrogression to something that has been superceded and replaced by a new reality.Nobody who accepts the authority of scripture can deny what is stated in Ephesians chapter 2.

And as far as Romans chapters 9-11, that deals with the ultimate spiritual salvation of Israel, who has been set aside until "the times of the gentiles" is fulfilled. The people of Israel rejected their Messiah but were given nearly 40 years to repent -- then in 70AD Jerusalem and the temple were obliterated and its inhabitants scattered. They are blinded and their hearts hardened.

After the period designated to the "gentiles," (the nations) is completed, Israelites and Jews will have the veil and blindness removed from their eyes, their hardness of heart will be supernaturally eliminated, and they shall receive salvation. Romans chapters 9-11 has little or nothing to do with physical Israel or a physical kingdom. It is referring to spiritual salvation -- any physical kingdom promises are secondary. And notice that it says that ALL Israel shall be saved -- not a third, or a portion (see Rom. 11:26).

How will "all" Israel be saved? This section of Romans has to do with a resurrection to physical life that is described in Ezekiel 37 and the "valley of the bones:"

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"He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, 'Son of man, can these bones live?' I said, 'O Sovereign LORD, you alone know.'

Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

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God's promises to Abraham are fulfilled in the "ecclessia" -- the Church -- they were spiritual promises, and eventually all Israel shall be included as well. The great irony: "The last shall be first, and the first last ..."

Thanks for bringing some common sense and realism into the picture.

I have often pointed out that the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Solomon, the Kingdom of Judah, the Kingdom of Israel, the modern-day State of Israel and the "Israel of Prophecy" may not be one in the same, and that it isn't entirely clear which one, if any, relates to the "Israel of Prophecy."

What ultimately ended up as the Kingdom of Judah, which consisted of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, also included the tribes of Rueben and Simeon.

As everyone knows, Reuben, Simeon and Levi lost their birthrights, Reuben for allegedly sleeping with his father's concubine, and Simeon and Levi for allegedly massacring the men of Shechem.

Joseph voluntarily forfeited his birthright in favor of his sons, Mannaseh and Emphraim

The Levites, for their part, where the priestly class and had no territory.

what i WANT to know is:

how do we know that the op here is not just a fucking nazi hoping to finally eradicate the Jew once and for all with his tool, the damn smirking Chimp?


i mean HOW DO WE KNOW.

cause if that's it -- i mean last i checked the nazis tortured and hated and lied to and ABOUT the jews -- and THEY were the bad guys --

and they bothered and hated others too, not just the jews, and were the slick liars they were always accusing the jews of being?

i mean what about the above is not just a bunch of nazi diatribe?

Food for thought, thx op:)


"Minds are like parachutes; they function best when open"