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You can't just make up etymology

 
VeggieBeefTips
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User ID: 66798187
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02/10/2015 08:47 PM
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You can't just make up etymology
I mean, I appreciate the effort.

But, just because words sound similar does not mean they are related ... at all. They have to have some serious meaningful and historical (even alternative) link.

I read in another thread:

"Czar
Tzar
Cesar
Kzar".

Really?

Czar and Cesar actually are etymologically linked.

What is "Tzar"? Hebrew / Syrian / Phoenician yields "trouble". Does it have an indo relation? Is this even a word?

Kzar -- the relationship between c and k doesn't make any kind of sense outside of modern englishy language.

Point being: You can't just decide that a relationship exists simply because you just thought of it. Good etymology requires bravery and research.

Thank you.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 63265313
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02/10/2015 09:24 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
If you knew the origins of most words, you'd be surprised :-) Try it in a foreign language and it gets weirder and funnier:-)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 63265313
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02/10/2015 09:38 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
Google north eastern English or Scandanavian words :-) Hilarious :-) Blue tooth for example.
Anonymous Coward
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02/10/2015 09:47 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
No? :-(
VeggieBeefTips  (OP)

User ID: 66798187
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02/10/2015 10:07 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
If you knew the origins of most words, you'd be surprised :-) Try it in a foreign language and it gets weirder and funnier:-)
 Quoting: Vala


True.

However, uncovering such sound relationships is not hard-etymology.

Take the word "fruit" for example -- apples, oranges, etc.

In Hebrew, the word for fruit is also "fruit".

These two words sound the same, but what shows a clear etymological relationship is that not only do they sound the same, but that they mean the same thing.

In indo-oriented languages on the other hand, fruit is 'falah' or something nearly indistinguishable from "falah'.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 63265313
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02/10/2015 10:16 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
If you knew the origins of most words, you'd be surprised :-) Try it in a foreign language and it gets weirder and funnier:-)
 Quoting: Vala


True.

However, uncovering such sound relationships is not hard-etymology.

Take the word "fruit" for example -- apples, oranges, etc.

In Hebrew, the word for fruit is also "fruit".

These two words sound the same, but what shows a clear etymological relationship is that not only do they sound the same, but that they mean the same thing.

In indo-oriented languages on the other hand, fruit is 'falah' or something nearly indistinguishable from "falah'.
 Quoting: VeggieBeefTips


It's easy if you know the timeliness of each variation and how the phonics in different languages created different interpretations. Historical data can be found locally and expanded on. I'm always searching for new online libraries but translation is not accurate enough to be definitive :-)

We need to share :-)
Anonymous Coward
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02/10/2015 10:17 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
words are sigils in proper order - like a recipe sort of..

words ARE spells or influences (magic actually)

I could go on... but - agreed - the spell casters have a formula and it is named: etymology
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 67902157
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02/10/2015 10:18 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I mean, I appreciate the effort.

But, just because words sound similar does not mean they are related ... at all. They have to have some serious meaningful and historical (even alternative) link.

I read in another thread:

"Czar
Tzar
Cesar
Kzar".

Really?

Czar and Cesar actually are etymologically linked.

What is "Tzar"? Hebrew / Syrian / Phoenician yields "trouble". Does it have an indo relation? Is this even a word?

Kzar -- the relationship between c and k doesn't make any kind of sense outside of modern englishy language.

Point being: You can't just decide that a relationship exists simply because you just thought of it. Good etymology requires bravery and research.

Thank you.
 Quoting: VeggieBeefTips


THANK YOU!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 63265313
Ireland
02/10/2015 10:28 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
So if I pull some text books from the attic, will it be too boring to cite from?
Anonymous Coward
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02/10/2015 10:49 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
So if I pull some text books from the attic, will it be too boring to cite from?
 Quoting: Vala


Go for it. Might be interesting.
Anonymous Coward
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02/10/2015 10:52 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
So if I pull some text books from the attic, will it be too boring to cite from?
 Quoting: Vala


Go for it. Might be interesting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66499416


I'll do it the weekend :-) Might be :-)
Sungaze_At_Dawn

User ID: 62256035
Canada
02/10/2015 10:56 PM

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Re: You can't just make up etymology
All of them are ras or raz backwards.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Ras, an Ethiopian aristocratic and court title, as in Ras Tafari

It could even be, Ra's, as in Is Ra El.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50667838
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02/10/2015 11:11 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I agree but would like to interject that in my experience online sources have a way of just dropping off and although I find very clear evidence including time/regional ... Synchronicities? I find no proper validation that I can quote. In cases like these, if I had the time or accessibility to sites like jstor and other archives, I strongly believe that the true etymology of a word could be arguably proven, peer reviewed 'n all, and thus 'extended' beyond the accepted status qou.

I've only come across words like those a handful of times and I certainly get what you are saying, though. If you're going to say it make sure it's at least grounded in reality...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 55499008
United States
02/10/2015 11:22 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
VeggieBeefTips  (OP)

User ID: 66798187
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02/10/2015 11:27 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
If you knew the origins of most words, you'd be surprised :-) Try it in a foreign language and it gets weirder and funnier:-)
 Quoting: Vala


True.

However, uncovering such sound relationships is not hard-etymology.

Take the word "fruit" for example -- apples, oranges, etc.

In Hebrew, the word for fruit is also "fruit".

These two words sound the same, but what shows a clear etymological relationship is that not only do they sound the same, but that they mean the same thing.

In indo-oriented languages on the other hand, fruit is 'falah' or something nearly indistinguishable from "falah'.
 Quoting: VeggieBeefTips


It's easy if you know the timeliness of each variation and how the phonics in different languages created different interpretations. Historical data can be found locally and expanded on. I'm always searching for new online libraries but translation is not accurate enough to be definitive :-)

We need to share :-)
 Quoting: Vala


So, let's share.

Bring down your attic books.
Anonymous Coward
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02/10/2015 11:34 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I thought this post was going to be about bugs
VeggieBeefTips  (OP)

User ID: 66798187
United States
02/10/2015 11:42 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I agree but would like to interject that in my experience online sources have a way of just dropping off and although I find very clear evidence including time/regional ... Synchronicities? I find no proper validation that I can quote. In cases like these, if I had the time or accessibility to sites like jstor and other archives, I strongly believe that the true etymology of a word could be arguably proven, peer reviewed 'n all, and thus 'extended' beyond the accepted status qou.

I've only come across words like those a handful of times and I certainly get what you are saying, though. If you're going to say it make sure it's at least grounded in reality...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50667838


exactly.

The support for the relationships needn't be peer-reviewed, but it needs to be rooted in some tangible, actual substance -- not just "well if you look at it this way, possibly, maybe, it could be, etc."
VeggieBeefTips  (OP)

User ID: 66798187
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02/10/2015 11:48 PM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55499008


Wow, this got really trippy about half-way through.

It reminded me of this one time, I watched this historic film about a renowned figure immigrating to America, and he made a speech when he arrived.

I watched the entire speech and understood every word he said -- I was surprised at how perfect his English was.

Years later I was recounting the experience to someone, and they said that the speech-giver never spoke a word of English in his life. Finally, we tracked down the speech, and -- sure enough -- it was not in English... none of it.

But I heard English, even though that wasn't what was being said.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 55499008
United States
02/11/2015 12:33 AM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
Yup...the spells embedded in our language get more and more boggling the deeper you look.
Em18966

User ID: 66273340
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02/11/2015 12:36 AM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
My daughter is a spelling bee champ and we did a lot of our study on word origins :) It's made both of our lives a lot easier...
beebee

User ID: 67403143
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02/11/2015 12:41 AM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
Hey, words cast spells, that why it's called SPELL-ing!
beebee
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53728645
United States
02/11/2015 12:55 AM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I mean, I appreciate the effort.

But, just because words sound similar does not mean they are related ... at all. They have to have some serious meaningful and historical (even alternative) link.

I read in another thread:

"Czar
Tzar
Cesar
Kzar".

Really?

Czar and Cesar actually are etymologically linked.

What is "Tzar"? Hebrew / Syrian / Phoenician yields "trouble". Does it have an indo relation? Is this even a word?

Kzar -- the relationship between c and k doesn't make any kind of sense outside of modern englishy language.

Point being: You can't just decide that a relationship exists simply because you just thought of it. Good etymology requires bravery and research.

Thank you.
 Quoting: VeggieBeefTips


Tzar is German as well as Kaiser.

The word Czar, which English speakers use to refer to the Russian emperors, entered the Russian language as Tsar, the Old Slavic version of Caesar: tsesari. The spelling Czar is a respelling of the Russian word with the letters of the Latin alphabet.

[link to www.dailywritingtips.com]
VeggieBeefTips  (OP)

User ID: 66798187
United States
03/15/2015 01:40 AM
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Re: You can't just make up etymology
I mean, I appreciate the effort.

But, just because words sound similar does not mean they are related ... at all. They have to have some serious meaningful and historical (even alternative) link.

I read in another thread:

"Czar
Tzar
Cesar
Kzar".

Really?

Czar and Cesar actually are etymologically linked.

What is "Tzar"? Hebrew / Syrian / Phoenician yields "trouble". Does it have an indo relation? Is this even a word?

Kzar -- the relationship between c and k doesn't make any kind of sense outside of modern englishy language.

Point being: You can't just decide that a relationship exists simply because you just thought of it. Good etymology requires bravery and research.

Thank you.
 Quoting: VeggieBeefTips


Tzar is German as well as Kaiser.

The word Czar, which English speakers use to refer to the Russian emperors, entered the Russian language as Tsar, the Old Slavic version of Caesar: tsesari. The spelling Czar is a respelling of the Russian word with the letters of the Latin alphabet.

[link to www.dailywritingtips.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 53728645


Exactly. It "entered" the language.

"Kaiser" is (or at least appears to be) Germanic.

"Tzar" and all of its derivatives "entered" Germanic language (i.e. Indo-European influence) and are not/is not native to the language.





GLP