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Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence

 
Just B.
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Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
Anonymous Coward
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01/31/2016 03:33 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Or if you ask God sumthng like: Hey God, If you are out there, please show yourself to me!

That will totally rock your world.

yeahsure
Xeven

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01/31/2016 03:50 PM

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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Being awake and aware seems like pretty good evidence to me.


con·scious·ness

noun

noun: consciousness

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"

付he awareness or perception of something by a person.
plural noun: consciousnesses

"her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"

付he fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
I reserve the right to declare my comments and posts as satire. Nothing I post should be considered or interpreted as advocacy for illegal activity. My comments are designed to inspire critical political thinking. I only mean half of what I say and only say half of what I mean.
Anonymous Coward
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01/31/2016 03:51 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
 Quoting: Just B. 71175743


That's why I believe consciousness is the basis of reality(not the concept known as god).

Consciousness is the driving force behind our reality(including evolution).

It's why things seem imperfect since there is no 'omnipotent creator' god. It bypasses the entire argument of creationist vs evolutionist.

Its not paradoxical for an 'Athiest' to know consciousness.

The only paradox is found in the question 'Where did everything or anything at all come from?'(including a god, if that's what you believe).
Anonymous Coward
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01/31/2016 03:53 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
We are not concious.

Its all an hallucination caused by lack of dmt.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/31/2016 04:00 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Being awake and aware seems like pretty good evidence to me.


con·scious·ness

noun

noun: consciousness

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"

付he awareness or perception of something by a person.
plural noun: consciousnesses

"her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"

付he fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
 Quoting: Xeven


Oh, it's absolutely excellent evidence. But it's subjective, not objective. That's the fascinating part. Usually subjective evidence is deemed far weaker than objective evidence, yet in the case of consciousness itself, it's different. There's no objective evidence, only subjective, yet, my own consciousness is the only thing I can be absolutely certain about.
Just B. (OP)
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01/31/2016 04:04 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Being awake and aware seems like pretty good evidence to me.


con·scious·ness

noun

noun: consciousness

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"

付he awareness or perception of something by a person.
plural noun: consciousnesses

"her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"

付he fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
"consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
 Quoting: Xeven


Oh, it's absolutely excellent evidence. But it's subjective, not objective. That's the fascinating part. Usually subjective evidence is deemed far weaker than objective evidence, yet in the case of consciousness itself, it's different. There's no objective evidence, only subjective, yet, my own consciousness is the only thing I can be absolutely certain about.

Interesting part about your last example up there is that although it is taken as a given by materialists, the emergence of consciousness from the brain is an assumption at best. It hasn't been proven in the least.
dogman17

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01/31/2016 04:09 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
 Quoting: Just B. 71175743



The proof is in the pudding. Just because something is not understood or is mysterious, that doesn't mean it is "supernatural." In the year 1900 manned flight would have been thought to be a supernatural phenomenon by many -- it wasn't.
Just don't make anything up.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
 Quoting: Just B. 71175743


That's why I believe consciousness is the basis of reality(not the concept known as god).

Consciousness is the driving force behind our reality(including evolution).

It's why things seem imperfect since there is no 'omnipotent creator' god. It bypasses the entire argument of creationist vs evolutionist.

Its not paradoxical for an 'Athiest' to know consciousness.

The only paradox is found in the question 'Where did everything or anything at all come from?'(including a god, if that's what you believe).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69650036


I am with you about it having primacy as opposed to being an emergent property. I believe it's woven into the fabric of creation, not a product of it.

I didn't say it was paradoxical for an atheist to know consciousness. The paradox is that it is accepted fully based upon subjective experience alone, something that goes against the usual call for something having objective evidence in order to be real. It's also a paradox that the most intimate experience we have is also the most mysterious.
Just B. (OP)
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
 Quoting: Just B. 71175743



The proof is in the pudding. Just because something is not understood or is mysterious, that doesn't mean it is "supernatural." In the year 1900 manned flight would have been thought to be a supernatural phenomenon by many -- it wasn't.

It's supernatural because its existence is beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature, just like the definition states. Face it, the only reason we have to believe it exists at all is because it is fundamental to our experience, not because anything in science predicts it's existence.

That's supernatural and just because admitting such scares the willies out of atheists and skeptics because they think it would be the camel's nose under the tent as far as their foodfight with theists goes, that doesn't change the fact that as per the definition, consciousness itself is fully supernatural. To deny it in the face of clear counterevidence is not a rational reaction, but an emotive one.


 Quoting: dogman17
djfxw

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01/31/2016 04:36 PM

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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
The brainstem is responsible for heart and lung function.
The brain is responsible for almost all other functions.
The pineal gland iS our conscience.

When you get knocked out, your brain will "shut down" due to the stress of what just happened. Just like fear, pain or sickness. Your brain stem is still functioning when you are knocked out because it needs to keep your heart and lungs going.

There is a baby that was born with just a brain stem and no brain but was still alive.

our pineal gland is what the hindus refer to as the "third eye" or our "mind's eye". It also is responsible for sleep. So since it is vital to our sanity, it is for sure responsible for consciousness.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Supernatural:(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consciousness is the ultmate paradox. It is our most intimate experience, yet its existence is a complete mystery and the very definition of supernatural.

Nothing in the laws of physics, chemistry, or biology suggests that it should be there. Although there have been enormous strides in understanding the neurological correlates of consciousness, the various functions in the brain that facilitate it, science still cannot explain in the least what it's doing there in the first place. Although there is no way whatsoever to objectively prove that it exists, even atheists and the most diehard skeptics readily accept its existence.

I find it fascinating that the thing we are most intimately familiar with is also the most mind-blowing. Paradox found.
 Quoting: Just B. 71175743



The proof is in the pudding. Just because something is not understood or is mysterious, that doesn't mean it is "supernatural." In the year 1900 manned flight would have been thought to be a supernatural phenomenon by many -- it wasn't.
 Quoting: dogman17


[Don't know how that last post got misattributed.]

It's supernatural because its existence is beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature, just like the definition states. Face it, the only reason we have to believe it exists at all is because it is fundamental to our experience, not because anything in science predicts it's existence.

That's supernatural and just because admitting such scares the willies out of atheists and skeptics because they think it would be the camel's nose under the tent as far as their foodfight with theists goes, that doesn't change the fact that as per the definition, consciousness itself is fully supernatural. To deny it in the face of clear counterevidence is not a rational reaction, but an emotive one.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
The brainstem is responsible for heart and lung function.
The brain is responsible for almost all other functions.
The pineal gland iS our conscience.

When you get knocked out, your brain will "shut down" due to the stress of what just happened. Just like fear, pain or sickness. Your brain stem is still functioning when you are knocked out because it needs to keep your heart and lungs going.

There is a baby that was born with just a brain stem and no brain but was still alive.

our pineal gland is what the hindus refer to as the "third eye" or our "mind's eye". It also is responsible for sleep. So since it is vital to our sanity, it is for sure responsible for consciousness.
 Quoting: djfxw


Isn't saying the pineal gland is our consciousness or that it is responsible for our consciousness akin to saying that the radio is or is responsible for the music it is playing?

The idea that matter generates consciousness itself is a product of the materialistic worldview, but along with that comes the assumption that unconscious matter somehow produces consciousness. How it might do this is completely unknown, but that doesn't stop the assumption that it is still true.

That doesn't make sense and is completely an article of faith, but it is heartily accepted nonetheless (without a hint of being aware of the irony) because no ground shall be ceded in the everlasting foodfight with the theists.

This turf war would seem to be holding back science big time because both models seem to be outdated but the material model still holds sway in academe and though it can't explain anything about the existence of consciousness, it regards any attempts at a consciousness as primacy to be nothing but woo.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
*attempts at a consciousness as primacy modelto be nothing but woo.

Currently, it is common to hear of the easy problems of consciousness and the hard problem. The easy problems, which are only easy relative to the hard one, are the stuff of the amazing advances of neurology, with all the brain imaging, the fMRIs and such wonder.

But the hard problem is why there consciousness is even happening at all, what it's even doing there in the first place. It's called the hard problem because unlike the killer advances in the easy problems, science still doesn't have a clue as to how insentient matter produces sentient being.

In the material model, consciousness itself is a given, and the game picks up from there. It's similar to the situation with evolution, where the questions of how life came about are not treated, but life is taken as a given and the focus is on what happened after that.

Should the primacy of consciousness model ever replace the current materialistic model, the question will flip from how does insentient matter give rise to consciousness to how does consciousness give rise to insentient matter.
Anonymous Coward
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01/31/2016 06:39 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
The brainstem is responsible for heart and lung function.
The brain is responsible for almost all other functions.
The pineal gland iS our conscience.

When you get knocked out, your brain will "shut down" due to the stress of what just happened. Just like fear, pain or sickness. Your brain stem is still functioning when you are knocked out because it needs to keep your heart and lungs going.

There is a baby that was born with just a brain stem and no brain but was still alive.

our pineal gland is what the hindus refer to as the "third eye" or our "mind's eye". It also is responsible for sleep. So since it is vital to our sanity, it is for sure responsible for consciousness.
 Quoting: djfxw


Pineal gland is not the seat of consciousness because it can be removed (i.e. Pineal tumor resection), and the human being will still have the same consciousness or "soul".
Just B. (OP)
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01/31/2016 07:07 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
The brainstem is responsible for heart and lung function.
The brain is responsible for almost all other functions.
The pineal gland iS our conscience.

When you get knocked out, your brain will "shut down" due to the stress of what just happened. Just like fear, pain or sickness. Your brain stem is still functioning when you are knocked out because it needs to keep your heart and lungs going.

There is a baby that was born with just a brain stem and no brain but was still alive.

our pineal gland is what the hindus refer to as the "third eye" or our "mind's eye". It also is responsible for sleep. So since it is vital to our sanity, it is for sure responsible for consciousness.
 Quoting: djfxw


Pineal gland is not the seat of consciousness because it can be removed (i.e. Pineal tumor resection), and the human being will still have the same consciousness or "soul".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 62236438


Good point. In fact, from what I have gathered, neuroscience shows that there is no "seat" of consciousness per se, no ghost in the machine. In this way, it is catching up with buddhism and the ancient yogis who have been aware of the illusory nature of the ego or self for thousands of years.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
We live in a fog surrounding our bodies some see as auras.
We maintain them through directing physical actions that we grow, eat, learn, care, and work.

You are never you.
You are all others and everything else too.
Tremble in awe of your power and simultaneous fuck-up-ed-ness.

What would you create but destroy and-or why?

What could I ask,
that you might do,
excepting it only benefit you?

Live Love and peace out.
Sky Ward

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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Great post, OP.

This video is an atheist discussing this very topic with Stu Hameroff.


[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
Just B.
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02/01/2016 09:33 AM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Great post, OP.

This video is an atheist discussing this very topic with Stu Hameroff.


[link to www.youtube.com.https.s33.wbprx.com]
 Quoting: Sky Ward


Thanks. Pretty cool that you posted that, because I just downloaded it the other night but haven't seen it yet, since I grabbed a bunch of stuff. There's so much happening now in the field and it seems like the tide may be turning away (slowly, sure, but still turning all the same) from the materialist model. I'm seeing stuff that was considered pure woo just a few years ago being put forth by cutting edge academics in those panel discussions and it's nice to see.

The stuff that the science and nonduality folks are putting out is really interesting and the idea of non-local consciousness is getting lots of attention whereas a few years ago it was being laughed off. Consciousness is coming out the the epiphenomenon ghetto and moving into the mainstream.

Just B.
Just B.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Hey, and speaking of non-local consciousness, I see that while I was beaming in from the Netherlands yesterday, today I have moved to the UK. Of course, the truth is that I am everywhere, right?
ohyeah

Just B. (op)
dogman17

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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
In less than a hundred years consciousness will be as fully understood as how and why the heart works. It's not "supernatural." The intrinsic meaning of the word supernatural is that it cannot be part of nature. Even though we may not fully understand consciousness from a scientific standpoint, in 2016 who is justified in saying that consciousness is "a fully supernatural phenomenon"?

Supernaturalisms, such as found in the tenets of religion, creep in when people do not understand something, or it's frightening, or it's mysterious. Fear of death is certainly a fundamental motivation in the human aspiration for some sort of an afterlife.

Last Edited by dogman17 on 02/01/2016 10:29 AM
Just don't make anything up.
Just B.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
In less than a hundred years consciousness will be as fully understood as how and why the heart works. It's not "supernatural." The intrinsic meaning of the word supernatural is that it cannot be part of nature. Even though we may not fully understand consciousness from a scientific standpoint, in 2016 who is justified in saying that consciousness is "a fully supernatural phenomenon"?

Supernaturalisms, such as found in the tenets of religion, creep in when people do not understand something, or it's frightening, or it's mysterious. Fear of death is certainly a fundamental motivation in the human aspiration for some sort of an afterlife.
 Quoting: dogman17


There is a differentiation here that you keep jumping over, dogman. I don't know if it's safe to say "fully," but I certainly agree that they will know astoningly more in a hundred years than now. But let's say you are correct and they have the same degree of understanding as of the heart.

This is an understanding of how it is facilitated, how it works once it's there. But why it's there in the first place is still as mysterious as ever and probably still will be in a hundred years, even if every aspect of how it works is understood.

That's why it's called the "hard" problem and that is why I am justified in saying that the existence of consciousness is supernatural, according to the definition itself. It is beyond the understanding of science and the laws of nature. Should that understanding change, or should there be newly discovered laws of nature, then the situation will change. (This has happened as late as the 19th century with the addition of electromagnetic charge as a fundamental entity.)

But you cannot say just because we don't understand it and cannot account for it with the laws we have, it's still not supernatural because one day we may know. That's promissory materialism, the materialist equivalent to the theist "take it on faith."

It may not be supernatural at some point, but according to the going model with the going laws as things stand now, it is just that. Now, if we change that existing model and make consciousness a fundamental feature of the fabric of the universe, just as we did with electromagnetic charge, then things would be different.

And that is my point. I'm not insisting that the existence of consciousness must always be viewed as supernatural, but that the existing model of what constitutes natural must be modified to account for the existence of consciousness.
dogman17

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02/01/2016 11:48 AM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
In less than a hundred years consciousness will be as fully understood as how and why the heart works. It's not "supernatural." The intrinsic meaning of the word supernatural is that it cannot be part of nature. Even though we may not fully understand consciousness from a scientific standpoint, in 2016 who is justified in saying that consciousness is "a fully supernatural phenomenon"?

Supernaturalisms, such as found in the tenets of religion, creep in when people do not understand something, or it's frightening, or it's mysterious. Fear of death is certainly a fundamental motivation in the human aspiration for some sort of an afterlife.
 Quoting: dogman17


There is a differentiation here that you keep jumping over, dogman. I don't know if it's safe to say "fully," but I certainly agree that they will know astoningly more in a hundred years than now. But let's say you are correct and they have the same degree of understanding as of the heart.

This is an understanding of how it is facilitated, how it works once it's there. But why it's there in the first place is still as mysterious as ever and probably still will be in a hundred years, even if every aspect of how it works is understood.

That's why it's called the "hard" problem and that is why I am justified in saying that the existence of consciousness is supernatural, according to the definition itself. It is beyond the understanding of science and the laws of nature. Should that understanding change, or should there be newly discovered laws of nature, then the situation will change. (This has happened as late as the 19th century with the addition of electromagnetic charge as a fundamental entity.)

But you cannot say just because we don't understand it and cannot account for it with the laws we have, it's still not supernatural because one day we may know. That's promissory materialism, the materialist equivalent to the theist "take it on faith."

It may not be supernatural at some point, but according to the going model with the going laws as things stand now, it is just that. Now, if we change that existing model and make consciousness a fundamental feature of the fabric of the universe, just as we did with electromagnetic charge, then things would be different.

And that is my point. I'm not insisting that the existence of consciousness must always be viewed as supernatural, but that the existing model of what constitutes natural must be modified to account for the existence of consciousness.
 Quoting: Just B. 71313535




What else is "supernatural" just because we do not understand it? The "why" may never be understood. The why may simply be a distinction in search of a reason. For our understanding, and for science, the how is most important. Why do dogs have tails? Nothing supernatural about it. No faith is involved in thinking that consciousness is not supernatural. As an atheist, my method of comprehending is that if I don't understand something, I won't make something up. It works. Absolutely, don't take anything on faith.
Just don't make anything up.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
In less than a hundred years consciousness will be as fully understood as how and why the heart works. It's not "supernatural." The intrinsic meaning of the word supernatural is that it cannot be part of nature. Even though we may not fully understand consciousness from a scientific standpoint, in 2016 who is justified in saying that consciousness is "a fully supernatural phenomenon"?

Supernaturalisms, such as found in the tenets of religion, creep in when people do not understand something, or it's frightening, or it's mysterious. Fear of death is certainly a fundamental motivation in the human aspiration for some sort of an afterlife.
 Quoting: dogman17


There is a differentiation here that you keep jumping over, dogman. I don't know if it's safe to say "fully," but I certainly agree that they will know astoningly more in a hundred years than now. But let's say you are correct and they have the same degree of understanding as of the heart.

This is an understanding of how it is facilitated, how it works once it's there. But why it's there in the first place is still as mysterious as ever and probably still will be in a hundred years, even if every aspect of how it works is understood.

That's why it's called the "hard" problem and that is why I am justified in saying that the existence of consciousness is supernatural, according to the definition itself. It is beyond the understanding of science and the laws of nature. Should that understanding change, or should there be newly discovered laws of nature, then the situation will change. (This has happened as late as the 19th century with the addition of electromagnetic charge as a fundamental entity.)

But you cannot say just because we don't understand it and cannot account for it with the laws we have, it's still not supernatural because one day we may know. That's promissory materialism, the materialist equivalent to the theist "take it on faith."

It may not be supernatural at some point, but according to the going model with the going laws as things stand now, it is just that. Now, if we change that existing model and make consciousness a fundamental feature of the fabric of the universe, just as we did with electromagnetic charge, then things would be different.

And that is my point. I'm not insisting that the existence of consciousness must always be viewed as supernatural, but that the existing model of what constitutes natural must be modified to account for the existence of consciousness.
 Quoting: Just B. 71313535




What else is "supernatural" just because we do not understand it? The "why" may never be understood. The why may simply be a distinction in search of a reason. For our understanding, and for science, the how is most important. Why do dogs have tails? Nothing supernatural about it. No faith is involved in thinking that consciousness is not supernatural. As an atheist, my method of comprehending is that if I don't understand something, I won't make something up. It works. Absolutely, don't take anything on faith.
 Quoting: dogman17


Certainly, I agree with you about not making something up because it's not understood. I am, however, a bit confused when you say don't take anything on faith, since that's just what you are doing when you say in a hundred years we will know everything about consciousness. You don't know that, but you have faith that it will be so. And there's nothing wrong with that. Somehow, faith has gotten a bum rap because of the battles between atheists and theists, but that's only a subset of a larger concept and one that has been quite useful in history.

As for the supernatural aspect of consciousness, as per the standard def, you keep insisting it's not so, but you are ignoring the facts as they currently stand. We don't understand why insentient matter gives rise to sentient experience and the laws of nature do not account for it. Closing your eyes to these indisputable facts does not make them go away.

What else is supernatural because we don't understand it? Parapsychology, would be an example. Telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, NDEs, reincarnation, ghosts, etc. We don't understand any of these, so they get kicked to the curb as not existing, even though examples of each are numerous across all cultures. But because they don't fit the existing model and cannot therefore be explained, they get dismissed out of hand and any evidence of such is instantly dismissed.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
What is consciousness other than a playback of stored physical asthmatics sensations recorded by your nerve endings?

Can you think of anything you haven't physically sensed?
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Nice post... It is the greatest paradox, greatest mystery, and the one phenomenon which I believes holds the keys to everything else.

Does consciousness arise from matter..? Or does matter arise from consciousness...? I personally believe the latter - that consciousness is the source of being, and that everything we see and experience derives from it.

If there was no consciousness, would matter matter...?
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02/01/2016 01:29 PM
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Nice post... It is the greatest paradox, greatest mystery, and the one phenomenon which I believes holds the keys to everything else.

Does consciousness arise from matter..? Or does matter arise from consciousness...? I personally believe the latter - that consciousness is the source of being, and that everything we see and experience derives from it.

If there was no consciousness, would matter matter...?
 Quoting: Quantum_Kev


Oh, I'm with you, there, QK. I believe consciousness in primary, not an emergent. I saw some physicist talking about it in a vid last night and he was kicking against the emergent property bit. He said it's a way of saying we have no idea what's going on here.

It's quite fascinating to see cutting edge science wrap around and cross into the territory of the ancient sages. It's so refreshing to hear physicists and other scientists openly talking about overlaps with advaita and buddhist experience since that sort of thing used to be anathema. Slowly, the tide is turning and the materialistic model is being dismantled and expanded.

Heh. Would matter matter? That reminds me of a quote from another quantum physicist where he said whatever matter is, it isn't made of matter. With all the stuff going on in quantum and the need for consciousness to collapse the probability wave, and all the rest, it's an exciting time.
ohyeah
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
What is consciousness other than a playback of stored physical asthmatics sensations recorded by your nerve endings?

Can you think of anything you haven't physically sensed?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37679064


Awareness itself is prior to physical sensation. Before I can be aware of anything, there has to be awareness itself.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
How can a three-pound mass of jelly that you can hold in your palm imagine angels, contemplate the meaning of infinity, and even question its own place in the cosmos? Especially awe inspiring is the fact that any single brain, including yours, is made up of atoms that were forged in the hearts of countless, far-flung stars billions of years ago. These particles drifted for eons and light-years until gravity and change brought them together here, now. These atoms now form a conglomerate- your brain- that can not only ponder the very stars that gave it birth but can also think about its own ability to think and wonder about its own ability to wonder. With the arrival of humans, it has been said, the universe has suddenly become conscious of itself. This, truly, it the greatest mystery of all.

V.S. Ramachandran, The Tell-Tale Brain: A Neuroscientist's Quest for What Makes Us Human
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
In science, we have largely ignored how consciousness manifests in our existence. We致e done this by assuming that the brain produces consciousness, although how it might do so has never been explained and can hardly be imagined. The polite term for this trick is 兎mergence. At a certain stage of biological complexity, evolutionary biologists claim, consciousness pops out of the brain like a rabbit from a magician痴 hat. Yet this claim rests on no direct evidence whatsoever. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry A. Fodo flatly states, 哲obody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious." So much for our philosophy of consciousness.

Larry Dossey, M.D.
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Re: Paradox found: a fully supernatural phenomenon even atheists and skeptics believe exists even though there is zero objective evidence
Great post, OP.

This video is an atheist discussing this very topic with Stu Hameroff.


[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Sky Ward


Excellent video!!! Especially took keen interest in this doc's ideas because I am also in the field of medicine...





GLP