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Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary

 
Daniel Higdon
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Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
So there's been some discussion as to whether the occupation of the Malheur Refuge was the "right fight, wrong strategy." Sheriff Mack in his town hall meeting in Burns last night stated that he did not agree with the occupation, although he considers Ammon Bundy a good man and a friend.

At the beginning of this, I also did not agree with the occupation. At this point, I'm still not sure how I feel about it. As I read and learn more of the history, I wonder if this action was needed as a wake up call. Here are some questions that I have. I'm hoping that others will give their thoughts on this subject.

1. Would the people of Harney County have found the strength to speak out in support of the Hammonds on a national stage without the occupation?

2. Have these events raised awareness of Agenda 21 and the overreach of the federal government for those Americans who get most of their information from facebook or the mainstream media?

3. Have these events pushed the Federal government to "tip their hand" early with regards to the continued militarization of the police force and with their plans to vilify "gun-toting" Americans whose only "crime" is the exercise of their 2nd amendment rights?

4. I'm reminded of Samuel Adams who has been called "an agitator." Did everyone agree with his actions in the time leading up to the revolution?

Here's the article that inspired this post:

Right fight; wrong strategy.

That's what many ranchers and sympathizers opposing federal control of public lands in the West concluded after the armed occupation of a national wildlife refuge in Oregon.

For some, the weekslong standoff that ended Thursday with the surrender of the final occupiers has only strengthened their resolve to fight the government's control of vast expanses of Western land. But not all condone the tactics of the armed group that drew the nation's gaze to the snowy landscapes of eastern Oregon.

"We're not backing off," said Greg Whalen, a military veteran from Las Vegas who supports the Bundy ranching family that led the occupation. "We're actually going to fight harder — peacefully."

Whalen and others say protests must remain a key part of the strategy — but they must be civil to avoid giving a reason for arrests.

Others suggest the battle should shift to the courts to pry authority over open space from the federal government. State lawmakers, notably in Utah, are considering a legal way to take control of U.S. lands that account for a majority of the West, including most of Nevada; about two-thirds of Utah, Idaho and Alaska; and half of Oregon.

Federal officials say U.S. control ensures the land is used in the interest of the environment, outdoor enthusiasts and industries, such as ranching, mining, and oil and gas.

Utah Gov. Gary Herbert denounced the tactics in the standoff but called it "a wakeup call for all of us that there (are) legitimate issues out there that are causing frustration."

[link to abcnews.go.com]

And here's something about Sam Adams:

Historian Thomas Fleming observed that “Without Boston’s Samuel Adams, there might never have been an American Revolution. His skill at combining agitation and propaganda put the British constantly on the defensive. He created committees of correspondence to link the colonies and was the chief organizer of the Boston Tea Party.”

The British governor of Massachusetts Francis Bernard snarled, “Every tip of his pen stung like a horned snake.” Thomas Hutchinson, British-appointed chief justice, snapped that there wasn’t “a greater incendiary in the King’s dominion, or a man of greater malignity of heart who has less scruples any measure however criminal to accomplish his purposes.”

But Adams was revered by American colonists. Thomas Jefferson called him “my very dear and ancient friend.” John Adams described Sam, his older second cousin, as “cool, abstemious, polished, and refined…when his deeper feelings were excited, he erected himself, or rather nature seemed to erect him, without the smallest symptoms of affectation, into an upright dignity of figure and gesture, and gave a harmony to his voice which made a strong impression…the more lasting for the purity, correctness and nervous elegance of his style.”

[link to www.libertarianism.org]


BREAKING: VIDEO Footage of the "traffic stop" the day LaVoy was killed. Go to 1:14 of the clip at this link:

[link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]


Last Edited by Daniel Higdon on 02/13/2016 11:36 AM
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 08:58 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary


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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Thread: Obama and the Federal Government ARE THE TERRORISTS.

Get your house in order.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 09:04 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
 Quoting: Sheepdog 42486625


Thank you for sharing. I'm reading now.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary


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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
both
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 09:37 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
It is time to dispel a few myths about what is going on.

Oregon Gov. Kate Brown sat in her office Jan. 20 and drafted a letter to the U.S. attorney general and the director of the FBI. She wrote that negotiations with the “radicals” occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge had failed and insisted on a “swift resolution to this matter.”

Local officials, including Harney County Judge Steve Grasty, made similar demands. On Jan. 26, they got what they asked for.

Authorities, including the FBI, ambushed and arrested Ammon Bundy and others on their way to a meeting in neighboring Grant County. They shot LaVoy Finicum dead. He was not holding a weapon.

Awful. Grasty and Brown knew what might happen should the FBI decide negotiations had failed. Few have forgotten the stand­offs at Waco and Ruby Ridge and that “swift” federal action often means people die — in many cases, indiscriminately.

It’s ironic, but the behavior of the judge and the governor goes a long way to make the refuge protesters’ case for them. Blind devotion to federal authority is terribly dangerous to lives and to liberty.

[link to www.capitalpress.com]
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 09:53 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
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 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70940103


I agree. At least at the moment I do. There is so much disinfo out there that it is hard to get a true grasp of what actually happened.

On the surface, it seems their strategy lacked proper planning, and they were likely infiltrated by government informants. However, if someone always waits for the perfect plan, the perfect timing, will that time ever come?

It certainly appears that the Hammonds had exhausted all of the "proper" channels. The people in Harney County appear to have been afraid to speak up in their defense. Sheriff Mack noted that it would have been much easier to keep the Hammonds out of prison, then to get them out after the fact. A constitutional sheriff could have stood between them and the governmenmental overreach. Sheriff Ward was appointed early possibly for a reason. In the Harney County Court meeting minutes, there is mention of him being appointed January 1. Then in December, he is suddenly appointed in a hurry. Makes me wonder why.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary


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Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
OMG! Just saw something posted on the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom facebook page. There is footage of Ryan Payne kneeling as he was arrested.

You can find the clip here: [link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]

Go to about 1:14 in the video at the link. So there is footage of the "traffic stop."
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 10:15 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Yep,right battle.DEFINITELY wrong plan.They were stupid beyond all reason seizing gov building ARMED.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
OMG! Just saw something posted on the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom facebook page. There is footage of Ryan Payne kneeling as he was arrested.

You can find the clip here: [link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]

Go to about 1:14 in the video at the link. So there is footage of the "traffic stop."
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon



Since the video of Ryan Payne kneeling was recorded in the moments after the vehicles were stopped on the 26th, and there was no media in the area, WHO took this video if not the FBI or Oregon State Police? [Update: I believe this footage was shot by ABC news which had been tipped off to the confrontation by the authorities. If ABC had this, then they have a whole lot more. We should demand that ABC release all of its video footage from the incident - or admit that they have been ordered by the FBI not to release it.]

[link to www.facebook.com (secure)]
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 10:24 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
"Right fight, wrong strategy" is the mantra of tyranny since the 90's. There IS no right way to fight back. No one ever suggests a correct way after they make that bullshit comment. It's a sinister demoralization tool created by the media to instill doubt and curb any future attempts to free the sheep from the farm.

Seriously; how the fuck is a peaceful sit in the wrong fuckin' way to do it?! So shooting is out, peaceful resistance is out, talking is out, hands up and cooperating is out...what the fuck is left???? The courts? HA! Good luck with that. Unless you're a multi-billionaire with endless resources and nothing to do, you don't honestly think you have a snowballs chance against the Feds in a 'court of law' do you?

No, the way they mean it - the only 'right way' is not to fight back at all. Anyone says 'right fight, wrong strategy' should be slapped in the mouth. LaVoy Finicum and the rest did something about it besides whine and criticise on the Internet - THATS EXACTLY THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

Fucking ridiculous, America.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 10:27 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
OMG! Just saw something posted on the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom facebook page. There is footage of Ryan Payne kneeling as he was arrested.

You can find the clip here: [link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]

Go to about 1:14 in the video at the link. So there is footage of the "traffic stop."
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon



Since the video of Ryan Payne kneeling was recorded in the moments after the vehicles were stopped on the 26th, and there was no media in the area, WHO took this video if not the FBI or Oregon State Police? [Update: I believe this footage was shot by ABC news which had been tipped off to the confrontation by the authorities. If ABC had this, then they have a whole lot more. We should demand that ABC release all of its video footage from the incident - or admit that they have been ordered by the FBI not to release it.]

[link to www.facebook.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon


There is video footage of the "traffic stop." Likely from ABC who was given a "heads up" about what was going down.
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 10:28 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Yep,right battle.DEFINITELY wrong plan.They were stupid beyond all reason seizing gov building ARMED.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69616707


Okay genius, then tell us; what's the right way? Go on. Since you know better than anyone, tell us all your master plan for the perfect way to stop the omnipotent overreach of tyranny.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 10:31 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
OMG! Just saw something posted on the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom facebook page. There is footage of Ryan Payne kneeling as he was arrested.

You can find the clip here: [link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]

Go to about 1:14 in the video at the link. So there is footage of the "traffic stop."
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon



Since the video of Ryan Payne kneeling was recorded in the moments after the vehicles were stopped on the 26th, and there was no media in the area, WHO took this video if not the FBI or Oregon State Police? [Update: I believe this footage was shot by ABC news which had been tipped off to the confrontation by the authorities. If ABC had this, then they have a whole lot more. We should demand that ABC release all of its video footage from the incident - or admit that they have been ordered by the FBI not to release it.]

[link to www.facebook.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon


I know I'm seriously changing the topic of this thread, but this is important. ABC likely has footage of what happened the day LaVoy Finicum was killed.
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 10:31 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Yep,right battle.DEFINITELY wrong plan.They were stupid beyond all reason seizing gov building ARMED.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69616707


Soooo you're saying the Bill of Rights, written by the men who won the freedom you enjoy today to say idiotic things, were wrong? 1A is wrong? 2A is wrong?

The fuck is wrong with you jackass?
Chugiakian

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02/13/2016 10:34 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
A thread I started

Thread: LaVoy Finicum and why the Government Assasinated him! A MUST LISTEN

for this video




[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

A MUST WATCH
Chugiakian
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02/13/2016 10:35 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
It's also about double jeopardy
Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!

Oh,and screw tepco & the V.A.



:captain:
Thread: GLP-Jukebox
Chugiakian

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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon




[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
Chugiakian
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02/13/2016 10:38 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
"Right fight, wrong strategy" is the mantra of tyranny since the 90's. There IS no right way to fight back. No one ever suggests a correct way after they make that bullshit comment. It's a sinister demoralization tool created by the media to instill doubt and curb any future attempts to free the sheep from the farm.

Seriously; how the fuck is a peaceful sit in the wrong fuckin' way to do it?! So shooting is out, peaceful resistance is out, talking is out, hands up and cooperating is out...what the fuck is left???? The courts? HA! Good luck with that. Unless you're a multi-billionaire with endless resources and nothing to do, you don't honestly think you have a snowballs chance against the Feds in a 'court of law' do you?

No, the way they mean it - the only 'right way' is not to fight back at all. Anyone says 'right fight, wrong strategy' should be slapped in the mouth. LaVoy Finicum and the rest did something about it besides whine and criticise on the Internet - THATS EXACTLY THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

Fucking ridiculous, America.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12740327


This
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 10:42 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
"Right fight, wrong strategy" is the mantra of tyranny since the 90's. There IS no right way to fight back. No one ever suggests a correct way after they make that bullshit comment. It's a sinister demoralization tool created by the media to instill doubt and curb any future attempts to free the sheep from the farm.

Seriously; how the fuck is a peaceful sit in the wrong fuckin' way to do it?! So shooting is out, peaceful resistance is out, talking is out, hands up and cooperating is out...what the fuck is left???? The courts? HA! Good luck with that. Unless you're a multi-billionaire with endless resources and nothing to do, you don't honestly think you have a snowballs chance against the Feds in a 'court of law' do you?

No, the way they mean it - the only 'right way' is not to fight back at all. Anyone says 'right fight, wrong strategy' should be slapped in the mouth. LaVoy Finicum and the rest did something about it besides whine and criticise on the Internet - THATS EXACTLY THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

Fucking ridiculous, America.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12740327


This
 Quoting: PIR


Agree with the bolded statement in your post. This is what I would like to know. What would have been the correct way to do this? Many avenues had been exhausted. How should this have been handled? Like you, I have not heard any solution presented that would have made a difference.
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 10:44 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Yep,right battle.DEFINITELY wrong plan.They were stupid beyond all reason seizing gov building ARMED.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69616707


Okay genius, then tell us; what's the right way? Go on. Since you know better than anyone, tell us all your master plan for the perfect way to stop the omnipotent overreach of tyranny.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12740327

So I disagree with you and suddenly I know better than 'everyone', I stated my case,I stand by it.

Armed force isnt going to cut it.We stopped a war without it.If we had gone armed,we would have been gunned down,no doubt about it.

Its way to soon to enter into armed warfare against the gov,the support simply isnt there for it.
Juries of sheeple and gov 'judges' are going to fry you,at this point in time.

The tipping point is nowhere near now.Get an economic collapse,starving people,a nice war...THEN there will be support.THAT isnt now,just plain isnt.

And they are,right now,going to lock Cliven up for 40 years,and the MAJORITY of Americans by a large percentage are going to think its just ducky.

Mark my words.
ib6xmb

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02/13/2016 10:49 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
both
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70940103


On the surface, it seems their strategy lacked proper planning, and they were likely infiltrated by government informants. However, if someone always waits for the perfect plan, the perfect timing, will that time ever come?

 Quoting: Daniel Higdon


I also felt they lacked any planning and that location was the wrong place to do it.
Your statement above makes beautiful sense. I guess starting somewhere is better than not at all.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 10:50 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
I guess my real purpose in starting this thread was to end up saying this:

There are many who agree it was a good cause, even though they might disagree with the strategy. Does it matter? Does it really matter if it was the wrong strategy? A man is dead now and many others are in jail. Our freedom is at stake. So there may be government informants infiltrating our milita. Hasn't this been the case throughout history? Will we wait for the "perfect" time to stand up and speak out against the injustices or will be protest these injustices when they happen? Will we continue to argue amongst ourselves over this, or will we unite against the common enemy? To be clear, I am not advocating violence. I am talking about the exercise of our 1st amendment rights. Will we continue to let them divide us, intimidate us, abuse our constitutional liberties, or will we stand for justice?
Chugiakian

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02/13/2016 10:59 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
BREAKING: VIDEO Footage of the "traffic stop" the day LaVoy was killed. Go to 1:14 of the clip at this link:

[link to gma.yahoo.com (secure)]

 Quoting: Daniel Higdon


is there another source for this video? it is not working for me
Chugiakian
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 11:02 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
I haven't seen one. There are some stills from the video on the facebook link. The video worked for me, but I'm getting bombarded with 1 stars on my thread, so the shills could be at work already.

I started a new thread for this topic, since it wasn't getting any traction here:

Thread: Oregon Fast Tracking a Bill to Keep Officer Identity Secret & Just Discovered footage of LaVoy Finicum "traffic stop"

Last Edited by Daniel Higdon on 02/13/2016 11:02 AM
Anonymous Coward
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02/13/2016 11:05 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
I guess my real purpose in starting this thread was to end up saying this:

There are many who agree it was a good cause, even though they might disagree with the strategy. Does it matter? Does it really matter if it was the wrong strategy? A man is dead now and many others are in jail. Our freedom is at stake.
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon

Im alivenot dead because of a piss poor plan.Im not in a cage.Because I exercise reasonable judgment and dont threaten my freedom or my families welfare for a cause that has no popular support.Or very little at this point.

Im smart enough to see taking on the gov,armed,at this point in time will garner little support and will result in my death,incarceration and devastate my family.Boy there's some good choices.

I have bigger fish to fry,and battles to fight when/if the time comes when its really necessary,not to die for a group of idots,yes IDIOTS,like Bundy and his spawn.

Frankly they ARE NOT worthy of sacrificing my family for them.I have my own to care for and I will do so,thank you very much,without any support from you.

YMMV,and at glp Im sure it does,I live in reality however.
Daniel Higdon  (OP)

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02/13/2016 11:11 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
I guess my real purpose in starting this thread was to end up saying this:

There are many who agree it was a good cause, even though they might disagree with the strategy. Does it matter? Does it really matter if it was the wrong strategy? A man is dead now and many others are in jail. Our freedom is at stake.
 Quoting: Daniel Higdon

Im alivenot dead because of a piss poor plan.Im not in a cage.Because I exercise reasonable judgment and dont threaten my freedom or my families welfare for a cause that has no popular support.Or very little at this point.

Im smart enough to see taking on the gov,armed,at this point in time will garner little support and will result in my death,incarceration and devastate my family.Boy there's some good choices.

I have bigger fish to fry,and battles to fight when/if the time comes when its really necessary,not to die for a group of idots,yes IDIOTS,like Bundy and his spawn.

Frankly they ARE NOT worthy of sacrificing my family for them.I have my own to care for and I will do so,thank you very much,without any support from you.

YMMV,and at glp Im sure it does,I live in reality however.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69616707


Thank you for adding to the discussion. My post did not advocate taking on the government in a violent manner. Simply speaking out against the injustices. The last time I checked, we are supposed to still have the right to free speech in this country.

I imagine that many others throughout history have had similar thoughts as you. Bigger fish to fry and battles to fight when/if the time comes. This situation is not just about the Bundys or the Hammonds. It's about our way of life. By the time many wake up, it may be too late to speak out against the Agenda 21/2030 plans of our government. Many state they will stand up when the fight comes to their front door. You may end up standing at your front door alone against an army.
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02/13/2016 11:14 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
Thank you OP for the reasoned response,I agree with you more than you know.
I just think its too soon,America isnt ready,we are fed,fat,have football and relatively happy(Yup,thats America,sad as it may be).When that changes,and it may,its a whole different dynamic.
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02/13/2016 11:21 AM
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Re: Occupation of Malheur Refuge: Right fight, wrong strategy or the wake up call that was necessary
If I ever stand at my front door against the USA army,I hope I take 2 for my one life.Ive done my last stand/terminal fire drills with the marines,I know whats involved.

But I dont see that scenario.Maybe one similar.You never know.I think we will have more warning than soldiers at the door.

Time will tell,but the tipping point isnt here yet,not at all.





GLP