Who are the Older and Younger Sons in the Parable of the Prodigal Son?

Lk. 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

I know that Jesus told the parable to illustrate the principle that there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. If the parable had ended at killing the fattened calf, having a feast and celebrating, I would have thought that Jesus just wanted to go a long way to buttress the principle of great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. But bringing in the displeasure of the older brother at the lavishing celebration goes beyond that principle. Obviously, Jesus brought in a new principle here. In order to unlock the new principle, the identity of the younger and older sons must be determined.

Not exactly true what you mean. The passage says that the older son was angry because the father was having a feast for the younger.

Can you elaborate more on your thoughts?

I'm just not understanding what you mean.

The story gives me the impression that the older brother, because he was faithful, he thought it unfair that the Father would celebrate the younger brothers return.


It seems more of a principle of God having mercy on who he will have mercy.


I don't believe that it's a new principle. When you consider Jacob and Esau. Paul even wrote about this.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

God is the Father. He has two categories of sons. One category is made up of angels. God later made man His son. The second category of God's sons are human beings. Mankind pursued a path of independence from God, and it led to the fall of man. Eventually, through Jesus Christ, mankind has made his way back to God. There is rejoicing in heaven among the angels, but in the beginning days of man, the angels may have been wary of the new son that God made for Himself, which led to Lucifer's rebellion. When Jesus (the firstborn human from among the dead) arrived heaven and God so highly exalted him, some angels may have been apprehensive, until God calmed them.

The older son is Judah. The younger son is Ephraim. Also known as Joseph or the house of Israel versus the house of Judah. Read Ezekiel 37:19, Mathew 10:6, 15:24, Acts 1:6, Hebrews 8, Romans 11, Ephesians chapters 1and 2.

Your explanation doesn't fit at all. There is never a place where God called Judah His firstborn. Instead, what God says is that Israel (the whole) is His firstborn.

Ex. 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
Ex. 4:23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so that he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

Israel divided into two kingdoms during the time of solomon. The northern kingdom is Ephraim which is the younger brother and 2nd born. What upsets the older brother judah is the 2nd born gets the birthright. We see this time and time again with Ishmael and Issac...Esau and Jacob..Mannaseah and Ephraim..etc. The 2nd born receiving the birthright

The two women who make up the house of Israel Leah(firstborn) and Rachael(2nd born)

Ruth 4:11:

King James Bible
And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

Leahs son Judah received the sceptre but Rachaels son Joseph received the birthright

1 chronicles 5:2:

King James Bible
For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)








2nd born getting the birthright:






We know Ephraim is 2nd born but given the firstborn birthright this is why Judah is unhappy because the 2nd born gets the firstborn birthright:

Jeremiah 31:9:

King James Bible
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Last Edited by waterman on 03/27/2016 11:29 AM

The kingdom of Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Judah was a son of Leah, while Benjamin was the younger son of Rachel and the youngest son of Jacob. The kingdom of Samaria was made up of ten tribes of Israel; two of the ten tribes were sons of Joseph, the son of Rachel; and the other eight tribes were made up of four biological sons of Leah. Five of the tribes were descendants of sons of Leah's and Rachel's maids. The firstborn son of Jacob, Reuben, belonged to the kingdom of Samaria. So the idea of Judah being the firstborn and Samaria being the last born doesn't fit at all.

Last Edited by Agent of Light on 03/27/2016 12:00 PM

Rueben levi and simeon were disqualified from the blessing therefore the sceptre went to Judah and the birthright went to Joseph (1 chronicles 5:2)

That is why we see these two representatives(two witnesses) in Ezekiel 37 one from Judah and the other from Joseph:

Ezekiel 37:

15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.




Last Edited by waterman on 03/27/2016 12:59 PM

the younger son and the older son are both the audience, while the father is God. but instead of God saying this to the people directly, he spoke in parables.

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Indeed - the older brother exhibits pretty much the same resentment as Jonah did when Ninevah was spared.

Secondly, we may want to consider exactly how "faithful" he really was, considering his bitterness over the younger brother's return and the ensuing celebration. His response suggests that he viewed serving in the Father's as an unpleasant chore deserving of some kind of reward. That sort of says "hireling" to me. It doesn't take much squinting to recognize large portions of Charch Inc. in these stories.

And while a life of wayward sin is not recommended, note that the younger brother reached his epiphany out there on his own, without any arm-twisting or browbeating. He "came to himself" and voluntarily returned home. How many of today's xtians would have climbed on his face before he even got out the door? "This is your eternal soul we're talking about!" etc.

Its simple dont you get it? The younger brother was lost to the world and its limited pleasures but the older brother was true and faithful all along.. when the older brother told his father how he feels ripped off the father reminded him that everything he has is already the older sons.. dont you get it? For the lord may be harsh on his beloved servents and not give them celebratory gifts and such but at the end of the day all the wealth of the father is already theirs for they where true and did the right thing all along.. simple.. I dont understand how you dont get it???

"Israel divided into two kingdoms during the time of solomon."

I had to stop just right there... because it is not true at least in the Bible its not true.

The United Kingdom of Israel was divided at the death of Solomon... not during the time of Solomon.

Yes, technically (1 Kings 12 and its parallel text in 2 Chronicles 10.) I think Waterman was referring to Shlomo (Soloman) being responsible for the divide of the kingdoms. And, technically, It wasn't at the death of Shlomo either.

Last Edited by Sabbath Keeper on 03/27/2016 06:19 PM

jacob

I was talking about the general time period...if you only read to try to find fault...check my spelling I'm sure there are many mistakes there and in punctuation..lol

Yes, Jacob/ Israel divided into 2 kingdoms, 2 houses and representing 2 brothers (Ephraim and Judah), AKA 2 sons ("prodigal son" is just Christian added wording like they do so much of).

You seem to bring in some form of synthetic kingdom that is not so called or labeled in the Bible. That synthetic kingdom you call "the kingdom of Samaria". Why?

Also the Kingdom of Judah had those of the Tribe of Judah, and those of the Tribe of Benjamin, and some of those of the Tribe of Levi.

Then the northern alliance, which is called the Kingdom of Israel (not to be confused with what we might label as the United Kingdom of Israel) was made up of those of the other Ten Tribes plus some of the Tribe of Levi.

So I looked in search of the KJV for the phrase "kingdom of Samaria" just to make sure I had not missed that term in my 50 years of Bible reading and study... and I have found ZERO search results to that queried phrase "kingdom of Samaria". So I ask for you to say which version of the English you are using that you are referring to some kingdom of Samaria.

Of course my usage of the phrase "United Kingdom of Israel" is also a synthetic, in that it cannot be found explicitly in at least the KJV English translation.

So I am asking what more explicit in the Scripture that you are referring to by your term "kingdom of Samaria". Thank you.

What is important is to realize is there are 2 Israels

1. the firstborn judah georaphical Israel

2. the 2nd born Jacob which is given the birthright and becomes an Israel(united states)

Then when we read the psalm 83 war we can know who this hidden people are..it is not the nation Judah which everybody can see but the jacob who becomes Israel nation(united states):

Psalm 83

1 Keep not thou silence, O God:

hold not thy peace,
and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult:

and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people,

and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation;

that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent:

they are confederate against thee:




Ezekiel 38 again in the last days...who is this Israel that is unwalled and dwell safely...this is not the nation judah who is always at war and is building walls all the time...again it is the other Israel which is Jacob(united states)


11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.



The united states is a perfect representation of the prodical son...they once knew the father but took their inheritance and turned to wild living...it isn't until they lose everything and become a slave that they will turn back to God...and that is exactly what is going to happen when the enemy comes up against the land of unwalled borders and God uses our enemies to fulfill his purpose of turning our hearts back to him

Perhaps.. I would have to re-read those passages (a much wider context than many would do). But as to the Reason that the "United Kingdom of Israel" was divided was because of an action of King David.. the consequence of his action coming by prophecy that the Kingdom would be divided.

So now I go a refreshing of the topic as to When that united Kingdom was divided as to whether or not it was AT the death of Solomon, or before, or sometime but much later after...

In most of the Scripture the "Northern Alliance" (what i have come to call it) is usually called, "the Kingdom of Israel" in contrast to its usage of the phrase "the Kingdom of Judah".

When one comes to the phrase "kingdom of Israel" in the Scriptures one does have to play close attention to the context including the times... Much like the term "Israel" one cannot knee jerk or trigger that it means a particular "Israel" one should take time for figure out just which "Israel" is being referred to. I am sure you take that time, many don't and this brings wider confusion rather than clarification.

You sure its not talking about mkultra ?
That shit sounds lot like it.

BTW, the first Israel was the man Jacob Isaac Abraham.. who get another name, an alias, an a.k.a. and that name was Israel. So the name would be like Jacob Israel Isaac Abraham, descendant of Eber (Hebrew), descendant of Shem, descendant of Noah, descendant of Adam.

The 1st Israel then is Jacob.

By the blessing of Jacob (a.k.a. Israel) he confers his name, Israel, upon Ephraim. This is a 2nd Israel.

And then there is that of the sons of Jacob (a.ka. Israel) that become called the sons of Israel.

And then in the Exodus we see the descendants of the same twelve sons of Israel (a.k.a., Jacob) being termed or called the Children of Israel (or Descendants of Israel).

Then going into the Land of Canaan we have much later descendants of Israel (a.k.a. Jacob) and these later form what is known as the Kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, and Solomon. These too are called simply, Israel, many times.

One of the challenges is to discern when the term, Israel, is speaking of Ephraim Joseph Jacob Isaac Abraham. Or whether it is speaking of the later divided kingdom that gets called then, The Kingdom of Israel (in contrast to the Kingdom of Judah). It tasks much diligent to discern and parse out just which meaning of that term, Israel, is referring to.

FWIW the phrase, "the Land of Israel" (in contrast to the phrase "the Land of Canaan") is under in the Scriptures themselves but 31 time in total 31 verses (explicitly so).

I will grant that the Plymouth Colony and the Jamestown Colony were both founded by those that professed to be Christians. But 1620 (in the case of Plymouth, e.g.,) is 156 years before the 1776 "American Revolution". Much had changed in the land that would become the 13 colonies and the first 13 United States.

I observe that there is something like the doctrine of British Israelism in this discussion when people start talking about "America" or the United States of America as being either "of the tribe of Manasseh" or "Jacob". It smells like the so called Jacobians of England that instigated the French Revolutionary War. This same doctrine purports that English is of the Tribe of Ephraim and thereby holds the Birth Right to the Land of Canaan... as Land Lords, but not Kings (throne of David of the Tribe of Judah, as Judah was having the Scepter of ruling over the People of Israel rather than being the ruler of the Lands.

There are many different meanings of that term "Israel" in the both the New and Old Testaments... and it is all to easy to confuse them.