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If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished

 
JeffersunTzu
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11/10/2016 04:38 PM
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If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
Tell them that's cool because if there was no Electoral College Trump would have won the popular vote by over 2 million.

Wait for the HUH? And explain:

Electoral college depresses voter turnout in non competitive states.

Let's look at CA. Average voter turnout was 55.5% in 2016. CA turn out was 43% (second lowest to HI). But CA has the highest population. Clinton's margin of victory was 2.5 million votes in CA.

In a scenario where there is no Electoral College, voter turn out would normalize and increase. There are no more competitive states because everywhere is competitive.

So voter turnout would normalize somewhere between 60-70% in every state.

What does this mean? Higher independent turnout in every state, higher R turnout in Blue states and D turnout in Red states.

The idea that "California's electoral votes are a foregone conclusion, so why vote?" disappears.

Let's look at what happened Tuesday. Here are the votes by party percentage:

Trump got 90% R, 9% D and 48% I
Clinton got 89% D, 7% R and 42% I

Let's say there is no Electoral College and voter turn out in CA was 65%

(Based on 18M registered CA voters, 44% D, 29% R, 27% I )

Trump 5M
Clinton 6.1M

This means without the Electoral College Clinton wins CA by 1.1 Million NOT the 2.5 Million she actually won by.

Trump would also gain vote totals in NY and IL under these assumptions. Clinton would gain some in TX but not nearly as much because the party registration spread is only 41 R 37 D. Gains in low population red states and highly competative states like FL would be negligable.

THIS IS THE DIRTY SECRET

The Electoral College helps DEMOCRATS in Presidential elections. You know how they say they have an easier path to 270? You won't hear any serious Democrats calling for the abolition of the Electoral College.

I'm not calling for it either. Eventually demographics will change and Rs would never win an election again under popular vote (50-100 years from now).

I'm curious to war game this out though state by state to see what the Trump Clinton race would have looked like under a popular vote model
"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots."

"He who knows when he can fight and when he can not, will be victorious."

"Part of being a winner is knowing when enough is enough. Sometimes you have to give up the fight and walk away, and move on to something that's more productive."

"Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war."
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2016 04:43 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
JeffersunTzu  (OP)

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11/10/2016 04:52 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


But in 50 years you're fucked because groupthink population centers (NYC, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia) would determine every election.

Last Edited by JeffersunTzu on 11/10/2016 04:53 PM
"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots."

"He who knows when he can fight and when he can not, will be victorious."

"Part of being a winner is knowing when enough is enough. Sometimes you have to give up the fight and walk away, and move on to something that's more productive."

"Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war."
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 52250891
United States
11/10/2016 05:00 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


So you want cities to be the only place that politicians campaign and those retarded liberals to rule the country?

Fuck that.


The system is actually quite brilliant and just fine the way it is.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2016 05:00 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


But in 50 years you're fucked because groupthink population centers (NYC, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia) would determine every election.
 Quoting: JeffersunTzu


I'm not Republican. There hasn't been a decent Republican president since Eisenhower.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2016 05:04 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
If vote fraud wasn't a factor, Trump would have destroyed Clinton in the pop vote.
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
11/10/2016 05:06 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


But in 50 years you're fucked because groupthink population centers (NYC, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia) would determine every election.
 Quoting: JeffersunTzu


I'm not Republican. There hasn't been a decent Republican president since Eisenhower.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


hesright there hasnt been a decent prez since... everyone one jsut makes the welfare state stronger and stronger and sadly all those tax dollars go to pedophile rings and spirirt cooking for the NWO banksters
Engonoceras

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11/10/2016 05:08 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


Do you think the people in the major cities should be able to determine the future of everyone else not in a city?

That's a nightmare scenario and the Founders knew it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 72217239
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11/10/2016 05:11 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


But in 50 years you're fucked because groupthink population centers (NYC, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia) would determine every election.
 Quoting: JeffersunTzu


I'm not Republican. There hasn't been a decent Republican president since Eisenhower.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


So, by your logic, it's fine if it's unfair, as long as it's unfair in your favor?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/10/2016 05:15 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
If vote fraud wasn't a factor, Trump would have destroyed Clinton in the pop vote.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72973289


This^^ And it's why they are so mad, they know they cheated and still lost.


That's why they aren't calling for a re-count, it would reveal that Trump won by a landslide fair and square.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2016 05:16 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


Do you think the people in the major cities should be able to determine the future of everyone else not in a city?

That's a nightmare scenario and the Founders knew it.
 Quoting: Engonoceras


I think the people should be able to decide democratically, yes. Why is democracy such a nightmare to you?

The reasons for the electoral college are twofold:
1) In the 18th century people got around by horse and buggy
and 2) It was hoped that the college could act as a buffer against demagogues such as Donald Trump

Let's get rid of it. It's ridiculous.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 73388421
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11/10/2016 05:18 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
If vote fraud wasn't a factor, Trump would have destroyed Clinton in the pop vote.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72973289


This^^ And it's why they are so mad, they know they cheated and still lost.


That's why they aren't calling for a re-count, it would reveal that Trump won by a landslide fair and square.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 72869412
United States
11/10/2016 05:19 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


But in 50 years you're fucked because groupthink population centers (NYC, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia) would determine every election.
 Quoting: JeffersunTzu


I'm not Republican. There hasn't been a decent Republican president since Eisenhower.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


So, by your logic, it's fine if it's unfair, as long as it's unfair in your favor?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72217239


I'm arguing for democratic fairness.
If you're arguing for somebody in flyover country to have essentially 3 votes to my one then you're supporting an unfair system only because it favors your side.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 73388336
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11/10/2016 05:22 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


Do you think the people in the major cities should be able to determine the future of everyone else not in a city?

That's a nightmare scenario and the Founders knew it.
 Quoting: Engonoceras


hesright

Look at each state by county.

Outside of Southern Cali, the DC area, the NYC region and a strip along southern Texas, it was mostly red. Blue is where most of the economic power - the so-called elites - reside already.

The current system is THE only way for power not to be concentrated further than it already is.
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
11/10/2016 05:23 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
If vote fraud wasn't a factor, Trump would have destroyed Clinton in the pop vote.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72973289


This^^ And it's why they are so mad, they know they cheated and still lost.


That's why they aren't calling for a re-count, it would reveal that Trump won by a landslide fair and square.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73388421


Especially in Pennsylvania.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14076451
United States
11/10/2016 05:34 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
Suck it up buttercup.
The same thing has happened five times before.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 72869412
United States
11/10/2016 05:38 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
I'd vote for a constitutional amendment to abolish that old relic. I don't believe that the vote of somebody in Wyoming should count for more than mine.

And as you pointed out, it may increase voter turnout, which would be a good thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72869412


Do you think the people in the major cities should be able to determine the future of everyone else not in a city?

That's a nightmare scenario and the Founders knew it.
 Quoting: Engonoceras


hesright

Look at each state by county.

Outside of Southern Cali, the DC area, the NYC region and a strip along southern Texas, it was mostly red. Blue is where most of the economic power - the so-called elites - reside already.

The current system is THE only way for power not to be concentrated further than it already is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73388336


The power is too concentrated where people actually live? It's too concentrated in the hands of voters? WTF?
Think about what you're saying.

Fuck your precious GOP.
And the Democrats.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 54980830
United States
11/10/2016 05:39 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
The us would break apart. Land mass is too large for cities on the coasts dictating to the heartland. It wouldn't last long.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/10/2016 05:40 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
You forget we are a republic of states. La and NYC running the show wouldn't represent a republic of states.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/10/2016 11:26 PM
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Re: If someone tells you Clinton won popular vote and Electoral College needs to be abolished
You forget we are a republic of states. La and NYC running the show wouldn't represent a republic of states.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54980830


The Electoral system favors land owners. You know, those who have an actual physical stake in the country rather than those simply occupying space.

Look at your junk mail, are you a resident or an occupant?

All you libbies and check recipients are welcome to buy as much rural property as you like. If you don't like it there other countries to choose from.


I'm just the messenger.