Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,089 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 1,912,882
Pageviews Today: 2,826,828Threads Today: 771Posts Today: 16,062
11:03 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe

 
Scarie Aintit
User ID: 115
United States
02/13/2007 09:19 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
Up there on the left it says there are 370 people online here of GLP RIGHT NOW! Who are these people ...damned
ps
User ID: 146563
United States
02/13/2007 09:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
my majors were economics and psych. although my literature and hisory teachers wanted to convert me. BA only. in phych. but it be clear that i finished the econ major.
ps
User ID: 146563
United States
02/13/2007 09:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
my majors were economics and psych. although my literature and hisory teachers wanted to convert me. BA only. in phych. but it be clear that i finished the econ major.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 194056
United States
02/13/2007 09:29 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
Diligence is success to knowledge.


Smart People Believe Weird Things

Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe

By Michael Shermer

In April 1999, when I was on a lecture tour for my book Why People Believe Weird Things, the psychologist Robert Sternberg attended my presentation at Yale University. His response to the lecture was both enlightening and troubling. It is certainly entertaining to hear about other people's weird beliefs, Sternberg reflected, because we are confident that we would never be so foolish. But why do smart people fall for such things? Sternberg's challenge led to a second edition of my book, with a new chapter expounding on my answer to his question: Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons.

Rarely do any of us sit down before a table of facts, weigh them pro and con, and choose the most logical and rational explanation, regardless of what we previously believed. Most of us, most of the time, come to our beliefs for a variety of reasons having little to do with empirical evidence and logical reasoning. Rather, such variables as genetic predisposition, parental predilection, sibling influence, peer pressure, educational experience and life impressions all shape the personality preferences that, in conjunction with numerous social and cultural influences, lead us to our beliefs. We then sort through the body of data and select those that most confirm what we already believe, and ignore or rationalize away those that do not.

This phenomenon, called the confirmation bias, helps to explain the findings published in the National Science Foundation's biennial report (April 2002) on the state of science understanding: 30 percent of adult Americans believe that UFOs are space vehicles from other civilizations; 60 percent believe in ESP; 40 percent think that astrology is scientific; 32 percent believe in lucky numbers; 70 percent accept magnetic therapy as scientific; and 88 percent accept alternative medicine.

Education by itself is no paranormal prophylactic. Although belief in ESP decreased from 65 percent among high school graduates to 60 percent among college graduates, and belief in magnetic therapy dropped from 71 percent among high school graduates to 55 percent among college graduates, that still leaves more than half fully endorsing such claims! And for embracing alternative medicine, the percentages actually increase, from 89 percent for high school grads to 92 percent for college grads.

We can glean a deeper cause of this problem in another statistic: 70 percent of Americans still do not understand the scientific process, defined in the study as comprehending probability, the experimental method and hypothesis testing. One solution is more and better science education, as indicated by the fact that 53 percent of Americans with a high level of science education (nine or more high school and college science/math courses) understand the scientific process, compared with 38 percent of those with a middle-level science education (six to eight such courses) and 17 percent with a low level (five or fewer courses).

The key here is teaching how science works, not just what science has discovered. We recently published an article in Skeptic (Vol. 9, No. 3) revealing the results of a study that found no correlation between science knowledge (facts about the world) and paranormal beliefs. The authors, W. Richard Walker, Steven J. Hoekstra and Rodney J. Vogl, concluded: "Students that scored well on these [science knowledge] tests were no more or less skeptical of pseudoscientific claims than students that scored very poorly. Apparently, the students were not able to apply their scientific knowledge to evaluate these pseudoscientific claims. We suggest that this inability stems in part from the way that science is traditionally presented to students: Students are taught what to think but not how to think."

To attenuate these paranormal belief statistics, we need to teach that science is not a database of unconnected factoids but a set of methods designed to describe and interpret phenomena, past or present, aimed at building a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmation.

For those lacking a fundamental comprehension of how science works, the siren song of pseudoscience becomes too alluring to resist, no matter how smart you are.



-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------
Michael Shermer is publisher of Skeptic magazine (www.skeptic.com) and author of In Darwin's Shadow and Why People Believe Weird Things, just reissued.
 Quoting: PACNWguy
Zion Protocol
User ID: 163909
United States
02/13/2007 09:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true or false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.
Thanatos

User ID: 170275
United States
02/13/2007 09:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
While we're on the subject....

After a careful examination of all the facts, having weighed those facts, both pro and con, and after having choosen the most logical and rational explanation......

What is your position on the existance, or non-existance, of the Jewish "god", and what is your view on Jewish claims that this "god" somehow "chose" these people as his very own, and then decided to grant them lawful title over vast swaths of land in the Middle East?

Let's review your best fact based argument on this matter, for our mutual education and enlightenment.


Why does the Christian god speak to Pat Robertson and George Bush, yet all the Muslims hear Allah? Why doesn't Allah talk to Pat Robertson, when he clearly needs it? Why do almost all religions claim that said religion is proven (via personal experience or science) and all others are false? Critical thinking shows that people know much less than they think they know.

Christians, Muslims and Jews believe in one God...the Creator. There is only one God and he is known by many names. The Arabic word Allah is the most common divine
name in the Islamic scriptures and has unique sanctity
not just for Muslims but also for Arabic-speaking
Jews and Christians, who have used “Allah” for
God from time immemorial. For Muslims, Allah is
the most inclusive of God’s names, embracing all
his other names and attributes. In accordance with
conventional Arabic usage, Allah can be applied only
to the Creator and cannot be assigned to any other
being, angelic, human, animate or inanimate, real or
imaginary.

[link to www.nawawi.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 181620


While this is an interesting viewpoint, it does not resolve the problem. I should have included the Hindus or the Wiccans in my argument to prove my point that religions can be vastly different yet followers of each one often think their belief is rationally supported. Therefore, people are poor judges of what is and isn't proof ("confirmation bias", in Shermerspeak), and therefore people really don't know much because we cannot check our own beliefs in meaningful ways. There is no logical way to be absolutely certain of anything; even pure math can be sent awry by our biases, i.e. Godel's mathematical "proof" of God's existence.

Therefore, I'm a militant agnostic who leans towards atheism.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 124911
United Kingdom
02/13/2007 09:45 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
The original discussion was about fact based rationality.

So let's see some of that.

Not this cut and paste cosmic crappolla.

What is the fact based, rational explanation for the existance, or nonexistance, of the so-called jewish "god", and the jewish claims that this alleged "god" granted them title to vast areas of land in the Middle East?

Lets see some facts, and some rational argument in support of your apparent belief.

Not this worthless cut and paste bullshit.

First you have to phrase your question correctly. As I said before, Jews believe in God not "god" or "Jewish god".
I don't think anyone should "prove" that God exists. Either you are a believer or a non-believer.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 181620


The title of this thread was

Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe

I think you've just provided us with an excellent example of that sort of "thinking".

WHY you chose to wiegh in on this subject at all, with your mindset, I simply can not imagine.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 160293
Canada
02/13/2007 10:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
>>This phenomenon, called the confirmation bias, helps to explain the findings published in the National Science Foundation's biennial report (April 2002) on the state of science understanding: 30 percent of adult Americans believe that UFOs are space vehicles from other civilizations; 60 percent believe in ESP; 40 percent think that astrology is scientific; 32 percent believe in lucky numbers; 70 percent accept magnetic therapy as scientific; and 88 percent accept alternative medicine.<<

Many of the people who come to a place like GLP are simply open minded (obviously the OP himself is proof that not ALL visitors here are such), and many of us have not only a university education but highly responsible jobs in real life as well.

The skeptic's article (they should properly be called "debunkers") is yet another poorly constructed effort at trying to cast open-minded thinkers in a dubious light. This of course is the reason why such debunker's societies exist (ever wonder where they get their funding?). How fascinating that the article simply presupposes that it is an established scientific fact that UFOs do not come from alien worlds, that ESP does not exist, that some people do not experience the strange coincidental occurrence of specific numbers in their lives, that nobody has ever benefited from magnetic therapy and that we should never ever accept alternative medicine.

If I take a quick journey through that list, not only do I see issues about which many of the people here at GLP have first hand experience (and this is probably one reason why they are here, lacking any faux 'scientific' arena for rational discussion of the subjects), I also see the debunkery of things that the fossil fuel industry, the military-industrial complex, the Vatican and big 'pharma' need to keep off our personal radars. All of those industries spend vast sums of money ensuring that these areas never receive any real scientific investigation, and instead that they are regularly debunked by complete frauds such as te author of this article.

The fact is that there has been NO scientific decisions taken on ANY of the subjects raised in this list, except for ESP which has been classified by the US government as being a real and undeniable phenomenon as a result of a government-funded research programme in the 1990s, and which is supported as real by any number of serious physicists, including at least one living Nobel Laureate in physics.

So how scientific can this article be, with its dubious use of statistics thrown in to provide the illusion of scientific certainty? It is not scientific in any way, shape or form. To deny that which has been accepted as evident, and that for which there is vast amounts of reliable eye-witness testimony is pseudo-science at its very worst. And even worse than that, it is corporate-backed fraud.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 163909
United States
02/13/2007 10:07 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
Because of the one-pointed Time awareness in which the conventional mind remains immersed, humans tend to think of everything in a sequential, word-oriented framework. This mental trap produces very short-term concepts of effectiveness
and consequences, a condition of constant, unplanned response to crises. In order to project into the future one must see all the Earth as one and know the past and the present from all sides as well as you know your self.

Only then can you begin to understand the meaning of fact.
Mr. Anderson
User ID: 176674
United States
02/13/2007 10:24 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
hey pacnw,

can't we assume most glp posters are college educated, have some training in scientific method, use the board appropriately and research the leads they might find, overlook the crap, and just appreciate the free format?

i am big fan of skeptic society, secular humanism, scientific method, etc. that doesn't stop me from getting leads at glp.

are you really in pacnw? i used to live there and miss it much.


Excellent post, great fan... as a University of Michigan educated economist, with plenty of exposure to the scientific method... as someone uses all free formats to assemble his beliefs... I truly appreciate your refreshing voice... it reminds me that there are in fact other discerning, yet concerned, individulas out there...

Mr. Anderson
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 190748
United States
02/13/2007 10:49 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
I believe that PNACgay is light in the loafers.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 187081
United States
02/13/2007 10:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
It boggles the mind how much garbage one braindead turd can spew

potkettle
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 195254
United States
02/13/2007 11:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
This article explains why there are so many educated liberals. What they believe is bankrupt and illogical with no merit whatsoever but still they endorse their
cause.

:liberals:
 Quoting: PACNWguy



Proving your own hypothesis with your post.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60359
United States
02/13/2007 11:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
Science is good, but I'm not hard headed about it.

There are lots of things science doesn't know, and science really doesn't have anything to say about the most basic mysteries of life and existence IMHO. Life and death are basically must as mysterious for us modern people as they were for our ancient ancestors.

Probably there are limits as to what can be explained intellectually. Some work in mathematics along these lines has been done, and I believe a relevant mathematical theory has been proven pretty much to most mathematicians satisfaction, and this theory says that if you have an unlimited logical system then you will not be able to prove all true things in that system by means of any finite set of axioms.

Axioms in logical systems are sort of analogous to accepted observational truths in scientific theories.

What this means is that, even in the limited and precise realm of mathematical logic there are always going to be truths that can not be proven by means of logical manipulation of more primitive, finite, set of axioms.

Now apply this concept to scientific theories and you reach the very reasonable theory or hypothesis that there are always going to be new discoveries in science that can not be predicted or explained by existing scientific concepts or theories.

Net result: it's good to keep an open mind in case a strange and unexpected thing is found to occur in experience.

Smart People Believe Weird Things

Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe

By Michael Shermer

<snip>

 Quoting: PACNWguy
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 159943
United States
02/24/2007 04:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Why GLPers believe weird things - Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe
bump





GLP