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Question for you electronic/circuit builders

 
-Adam-
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03/06/2017 01:19 PM
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Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Is there any way to separate or filter out a sawtooth wave dependent upon which direction the saw tooth edge is?

ie, one part lead rises sharp and tapers for one signal and the other signal has a leading taper then a sharp drop in voltage.

I do not want to filter frequency, already have a passive low pass to cut high freq noise.

Just need to separate the two signals. (or omit one and then buffer, omit the other)



I am completely baffled on this one.

Last Edited by -Adam- on 03/06/2017 01:19 PM
SpringLeak

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03/06/2017 02:34 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
There is always a way.

But usually the way is too f-ing hard.

Can you tell more about what you are trying to do?

If you know the wave form that you want, can you just generate the waveform you want instead of trying to filter it?

Is it true AC, or DC offset?

Is one offset positive and the other offset negative?
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Force Ghost Void God Zombie Wookie King From Beyond The Stars - Also I'm modest and understated.

"Those who know, don't teach. Those who teach, are fucking with you."

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift

"Whenever possible be more compassionate. It is always possible to be more compassionate."

"Four hearts combined are one."

"There is a reason we use brains for thinking and concrete for sidewalks."

"God is love. All you need is love...and GALAXY BLASTING SPACE WEAPONS." (I knew there was something wrong with this one, it just took me a while to figure it out)

"Women are evil, men are dumb, somebody pissed in the beer."

"The thing about smart people is: they seem like crazy people... to dumb people."

"He who says it cannot be done should not interrupt he who is doing it."

"Humanity has driven off the cliff, now the military is holding their hands over our eyes so we don't see the ground coming."

"Some of what you read is wrong because the people who wrote it also did not have a very good education and were groping around in the dark when they wrote it. Lets thank them for trying because without people like them we would have a lot more groping to do in a much darker world"
SpringLeak

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03/06/2017 02:35 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
There is always a way.

But usually the way is too f-ing hard.

Can you tell more about what you are trying to do?

If you know the wave form that you want, can you just generate the waveform you want instead of trying to filter it?

Is it true AC, or DC offset?

Is one offset positive and the other offset negative?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


Are you that funny looking kid with the life vest thats always hanging around that crazy old man?
SpamSpamSignatureSpamSpam
Force Ghost Void God Zombie Wookie King From Beyond The Stars - Also I'm modest and understated.

"Those who know, don't teach. Those who teach, are fucking with you."

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift

"Whenever possible be more compassionate. It is always possible to be more compassionate."

"Four hearts combined are one."

"There is a reason we use brains for thinking and concrete for sidewalks."

"God is love. All you need is love...and GALAXY BLASTING SPACE WEAPONS." (I knew there was something wrong with this one, it just took me a while to figure it out)

"Women are evil, men are dumb, somebody pissed in the beer."

"The thing about smart people is: they seem like crazy people... to dumb people."

"He who says it cannot be done should not interrupt he who is doing it."

"Humanity has driven off the cliff, now the military is holding their hands over our eyes so we don't see the ground coming."

"Some of what you read is wrong because the people who wrote it also did not have a very good education and were groping around in the dark when they wrote it. Lets thank them for trying because without people like them we would have a lot more groping to do in a much darker world"
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/06/2017 03:51 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
There is always a way.

But usually the way is too f-ing hard.

Can you tell more about what you are trying to do?

If you know the wave form that you want, can you just generate the waveform you want instead of trying to filter it?

Is it true AC, or DC offset?

Is one offset positive and the other offset negative?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


Are you that funny looking kid with the life vest thats always hanging around that crazy old man?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


lol

NO


There is a bit of DC bias among the two. One is about 2/3 the voltage range of the signal. Roughly 1 to 2.5v swing +/-

Though, they over lap about a third of the voltage range. So a window comparator is feasible but it looses a good part of the signal.

Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth.

Maybe acting on the rapid voltage rise from the one and the rapid voltage decline from the other.

I would then need a simple op amp circuit that would create a signal pending if the voltage either rises rapidly or drops rapidly. But reduces the signal if it is a gradual slide of voltage.

It would need to go high or low from the reference if spikes low/high.....I don't know.


I was hoping there is a trick or a known method of doing such.

Back to the drawing board.
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:36 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
You have a tough one there. You might try a dedicated E/E forum. But I doubt you will have luck.
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:37 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Cut the Red wire
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:38 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Op amp, capacitors and transistors, draw me a diagram can not draw what you are saying show me the problem.
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:40 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
There is always a way.

But usually the way is too f-ing hard.

Can you tell more about what you are trying to do?

If you know the wave form that you want, can you just generate the waveform you want instead of trying to filter it?

Is it true AC, or DC offset?

Is one offset positive and the other offset negative?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


Are you that funny looking kid with the life vest thats always hanging around that crazy old man?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


lol

NO


There is a bit of DC bias among the two. One is about 2/3 the voltage range of the signal. Roughly 1 to 2.5v swing +/-

Though, they over lap about a third of the voltage range. So a window comparator is feasible but it looses a good part of the signal.

Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth.

Maybe acting on the rapid voltage rise from the one and the rapid voltage decline from the other.

I would then need a simple op amp circuit that would create a signal pending if the voltage either rises rapidly or drops rapidly. But reduces the signal if it is a gradual slide of voltage.

It would need to go high or low from the reference if spikes low/high.....I don't know.


I was hoping there is a trick or a known method of doing such.

Back to the drawing board.
 Quoting: -Adam-


I know exactly how to fix what you are saying.
But draw a diagram because you are missing pieces in your text.
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:42 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth.


 Quoting: -Adam-


This is nonsense I am now convinced you are speaking shit.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 10:44 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I was thinking about a sample and hold circuit and compare the prior reading with logic.

No circuit will help the question....

Have an alternating saw tooth. Need to filter the difference from each other.

I COULD go the Arduino route and filter with software but I have a liking for avoiding binary applications when possible.

Except for flash ADC.
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 10:45 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I was thinking about a sample and hold circuit and compare the prior reading with logic.

No circuit will help the question....

Have an alternating saw tooth. Need to filter the difference from each other.

I COULD go the Arduino route and filter with software but I have a liking for avoiding binary applications when possible.

Except for flash ADC.
 Quoting: -Adam-


"Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth."

You speak shit.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 10:49 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth.


 Quoting: -Adam-


This is nonsense I am now convinced you are speaking shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48129708


How is it nonsense....I built dozens of comparators and this signal, when using a hysteresis applied to the reference ground...which I an buffering with a follower to avoid distortion from the voltage divider, gives a shitty output.

I would avoid making such claims with out knowing the signal I am trying to condition.

I could have easily done something wrong or misunderstood something along the way. But to say I am speaking shit is unnecessary.



Thanks
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 10:51 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I was thinking about a sample and hold circuit and compare the prior reading with logic.

No circuit will help the question....

Have an alternating saw tooth. Need to filter the difference from each other.

I COULD go the Arduino route and filter with software but I have a liking for avoiding binary applications when possible.

Except for flash ADC.
 Quoting: -Adam-


"Hysteresis comparator acts goofy with the two sawtooth forms occurring back and forth."

You speak shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48129708


No, I speak electronics from a hobbyist perspective.

Unless you have constructive input, kindly fuck off!
DuckNCover

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03/13/2017 11:04 AM

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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I'm an Electrical Engineer. Graduated many years ago...

What you are looking for is a 2 step process...

First you would need a differential/comparitor circuit. Then use DC biasing to distinguish the positive rising slope as opposed to the negative decreasing slope....

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat....

Another way is using a one shot multi-vibrator IC and have it edge triggered either positively or negatively. That would capture only the leading or trailing edge of the signal you want to process or filter...

You can also use inverters to change the direction of the sawtooth wave, if need be....

The main problem would be frequency of the sawtooth wave. The circuits that I described above will work on slower frequencies. Very fast frequencies would be a little more intricate to build....

Last Edited by DuckNCover on 03/13/2017 11:06 AM
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 11:09 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I'm an Electrical Engineer. Graduated many years ago...

What you are looking for is a 2 step process...

First you would need a differential/comparitor circuit. Then use DC biasing to distinguish the positive rising slope as opposed to the negative decreasing slope....

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat....

Another way is using a one shot multi-vibrator IC and have it edge triggered either positively or negatively. That would capture only the leading or trailing edge of the signal you want to process or filter...

You can also use inverters to change the direction of the sawtooth wave, if need be....

The main problem would be frequency of the sawtooth wave. The circuits that I described above will work on slower frequencies. Very fast frequencies would be a little more intricate to build....
 Quoting: DuckNCover


BANG, thank you, exactly the kind of input I was looking for.

This is one of those things I can't find seeking around the Inet.


THANK YOU!!!


edit: Edge trigger, I like that idea. SO I would be getting a pulse type output? That may work out pretty well.

Ultimately the signal will be high or low among another high and low output.

The saw tooth wave indicates direction and the frequency of the saw tooth is the half wavelength of the laser.

Advanced interferometry. I found a way to make an interferometer with data on which direction the target is moving w/o having to chop up the signal.

Last Edited by -Adam- on 03/13/2017 11:14 AM
DuckNCover

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03/13/2017 12:14 PM

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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Yes very cool idea...

If you have multiple signals to process, you may want to look into a multiplexer IC chip. They are programmable and depending on the inputs, you can get a certain output. That might aid in de-multiplexing and multiplexing your inputs and outputs....
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 01:34 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Yes very cool idea...

If you have multiple signals to process, you may want to look into a multiplexer IC chip. They are programmable and depending on the inputs, you can get a certain output. That might aid in de-multiplexing and multiplexing your inputs and outputs....
 Quoting: DuckNCover


Thanks, I am not new to electronics but the more advanced concepts I still need to learn and well, fail a few times before I get it right.

My bucket of scrapped breadboards is proof of this, lol.

But seriously, this is awesome advice, thank you.


I was thinking.... the two forms of saw tooth are almost exact opposites.

Take one that rises in volts rapidly (the wall) and declines gradually (linear) to 0v. The other drops gradually to -v and returns to 0v rapidly.

In essence they are true opposites. But it is not that exact, they over lap slightly (at most 1/3rd) and that over lap causes problems in the comparators. I get alternating high low and the low is the other saw tooth crossing the reference.

Plus, the over all voltage of the signal can shift 3-4 volts by tuning the setup (I have to keep some of it confidential atm). The waveform shifts pending the photo bias, interference patterns high, low and all in between. A unique function of this interferometer.

SO there is another strike for a comparator. Unless I can get the window comparator reference lines to shift with the over all signal adjusting.

I hope this makes sense.


I recently had great success by converting an INS AMP into a transimpedance amp for the photodiode. Works great because the feedback resistors can remain fixed and therefor ground circuit can shield them easy. It makes a VERY clean saw tooth.

The saw tooth is interesting because it is created in the photon state. How my invention works, that is the impact on the laser beam into the sensor. It makes saw tooth waves.

What made us jump, including the patent lawyer, was the ability to discern which direction the target is moving WHILE providing the fluctuating interference pattern to measure half wavelengths.

NO interferomter to date does that with out chopping the signal to achieve a type of feedback. Like a Bragg Cell, or some other independent sensor for direction.

Mine does it all in one. And we believe it will dominate a 120 million/year market.


CHA-CHING!
Anonymous Coward
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03/13/2017 01:43 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I would try a DSP proto board.

1 Digitize

2 Look during a sampling window for rising or falling trends above backgroud, while save raw samples too.

3 Subtract extracted sawtooth from matching raw sample.

4 Send difference result to an D/A converter.

5 Watch cat videos
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 02:08 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I would try a DSP proto board.

1 Digitize

2 Look during a sampling window for rising or falling trends above backgroud, while save raw samples too.

3 Subtract extracted sawtooth from matching raw sample.

4 Send difference result to an D/A converter.

5 Watch cat videos
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69546871


Eh, I guess I do need to cross into digital at some point.

After all, a comparator is pretty much a 1 bit digital signal.

Maybe a set of logic gates to produce a result from low bit flash ADC. Enough to allow a true (1) if the sequence goes from binary low to binary high and none in between, visa versa.

After the flash ADC circuit, lets example 2 bit. 4 possible combinations. If the results go 00, sample and hold, if that sample is 00 and the next binary is 11, then the output is high and left channel. But if it goes 11 then 00, same but right channel. If any other, 00 then 10, clear and repeat.

Idk, hard to say in thought. I could run and grab some 7400 gate IC's but....maybe.

I like to get it all done in analog (and simple flash like ADC) before having to incorporate processing and programming.

But I will investigate your suggestions. Thanks.

If I get it to work, I'll be sure to post up.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 02:16 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
The sawtooth, in the comparator I built, it makes an output signal that almost looks like the signal seen driving a pair of mosfets in a class-d amp.

No good... Mostly from the noise that isn't from the opamps. It is from the optical side of the signal. The noise voltage is small, but still, it doesn't work well. Even with hysteresis adjustable with diodes and 10k or 1k pot.

This is why I love electronics, the challenge. But dang, it can really push the minds limit sometimes.
scimitar

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03/13/2017 02:50 PM

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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
You lost me a bit. The laser sensor creates the sawtooth and you are trying discern attributes from it by generating and comparing against a know reference? Remember that you can generate a ramp for the sawtooth by charging or discharging a capacitor from a constant current source then restart with the opposite voltage through a low impedance pulsed switch. Here again the good old 555 timer IC works great for that.

As has been stated there are a great many ways to do the same thing and analog is a great way to keep things simple, circuit wise, but a bear to calibrate. Digital is definitely the way to go. Depending on the actual process rates then either a micro controller for rather slow rates or accelerate it with an FPGA. Obviously we generally interface to an analog world so A/D and D/A converters or PWMs are hard to live without.

Last Edited by scimitar on 03/13/2017 02:54 PM
One Truth.... many realities
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/13/2017 09:44 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
It is sensing an interference pattern of light. Gets brighter and darker pending the line up distance.

Interestingly, as it is unique, the signal reverses its shape when the target reverses direction.

But it will vary in frequency as it is measuring a real time object. From almost DC to the IC's skew rate.

So that presents challenges, naturally.

But at least this type of device is glorified around micro motion, so digital analysis is easily up to speed.

I suppose it would be wise to just use the Arduino and program the filter. It would give me many options.



Thanks everyone, I have a lot to research so far.
South Central

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03/13/2017 10:21 PM

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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I am more of a psychic but find the sciences fascinating. Don't know if this means anything but the word "pivot" comes to mind. Pivotal...planes?

Please don't make fun of me if that makes no sense. I know pretty much zero about electronics but I am fascinated with the process of inventing.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/14/2017 09:06 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I am more of a psychic but find the sciences fascinating. Don't know if this means anything but the word "pivot" comes to mind. Pivotal...planes?

Please don't make fun of me if that makes no sense. I know pretty much zero about electronics but I am fascinated with the process of inventing.
 Quoting: South Central


Well done!

You hit upon a critical part of the process. Just don't reveal much more until I go public 100%.

Need to discover as much as possible to prevent a co-patent situation should an engineer discover something we could have down the road.


It is awesome, I will say that. Due to the nature of the devices construction, it has FAR less device vibration introduced noise compared to standard interferometers.

That and I eliminated the need for certain components that allows for higher frequencies of EM to be utilized.


In short, it could revolutionize science and industry.

I was after gravity waves, part way through I discovered this interesting process.

Last Edited by -Adam- on 03/14/2017 09:07 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I think its pretty cool that GLP is such a diverse group.....knowledgeable folk from all aspect of endeavors.....lots of forums tend to draw cookie cutter type members....

nerd
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03/14/2017 09:17 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
There is always a way.

But usually the way is too f-ing hard.

Can you tell more about what you are trying to do?

If you know the wave form that you want, can you just generate the waveform you want instead of trying to filter it?

Is it true AC, or DC offset?

Is one offset positive and the other offset negative?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


Are you that funny looking kid with the life vest thats always hanging around that crazy old man?
 Quoting: SpringLeak


docbrown
"I programmed you to believe that."

-"::"-"::"-"::"-

The Rickest Rick Sanchez comments are meant for entertainment purposes only and should not be construed to reflect the feelings and opinions, implied or expressed, of the author.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/14/2017 09:18 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I think its pretty cool that GLP is such a diverse group.....knowledgeable folk from all aspect of endeavors.....lots of forums tend to draw cookie cutter type members....

nerd
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73364948


Yeah, I love this place for many reasons. One of is what you just described.

Did you see the thread where I revealed what Ed Leedskalnins symbol REALLY meant?

Thread: The Secret of Ed Leedskalnins Symbol

It is stuff like this I am searching for often.
Anonymous Coward
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03/14/2017 09:19 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Isolate the one you want, if its weak, step it up, duh.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/14/2017 09:22 AM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
Isolate the one you want, if its weak, step it up, duh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74036517


Not that easy.
South Central

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03/14/2017 12:18 PM

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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
I am more of a psychic but find the sciences fascinating. Don't know if this means anything but the word "pivot" comes to mind. Pivotal...planes?

Please don't make fun of me if that makes no sense. I know pretty much zero about electronics but I am fascinated with the process of inventing.
 Quoting: South Central


Well done!

You hit upon a critical part of the process. Just don't reveal much more until I go public 100%.

Need to discover as much as possible to prevent a co-patent situation should an engineer discover something we could have down the road.

It is awesome, I will say that. Due to the nature of the devices construction, it has FAR less device vibration introduced noise compared to standard interferometers.

That and I eliminated the need for certain components that allows for higher frequencies of EM to be utilized.


In short, it could revolutionize science and industry.

I was after gravity waves, part way through I discovered this interesting process.
 Quoting: -Adam-


I think I just outed myself on your thread.... oops!
lol

I hope I don't get kidnapped now by men in black or anything. Being a conspiracy theorist, I do think about these things.

Psychics and inventors can work together to save the world. I won't say any more. Should I edit my post?

So, this tells me I am on the right track and would be able help you even more. If you want some hints from worlds beyond, PM me with a secure means of communication.

I've always dreamed of putting my abilities to constructive use to benefit mankind. In life, it's not what you take with you but what you leave behind for others that truly matters most.
-Adam-  (OP)

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03/14/2017 12:28 PM
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Re: Question for you electronic/circuit builders
You will not be kidnapped.





GLP