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Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 03:16 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
I have read this thread over and over. There are things I can't understand.

1. How can Jesus forgive sin if He is not God?
2. How could Jesus be sinless if He is not God?
3. How can Jesus be Savior if He is not God?
4. How can Jesus be from everlasting to everlasting if He is not God, but a creation?
5. Why would he be called Emmanuel, God with us, if He is not God?
6. How can His dominion be everlasting, and His Kingdom never be destroyed if He is not God which is eternal?
7. From my understanding, Jesus has said He is God, and He is the Son of God, and that He is the son of man, and The Messiah/Christ.
8. And as far as making Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into 3 sperate persons, that is not at all true. It is the 3 natures of God that represent one wholeness. God is one. Same and Body, Soul, and Spirit. They aren't 3 separate beings, but 3 aspects of the nature of one being human.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


1. Because the Father has GIVEN Jesus the authority to do it. Jesus also gave the Apostles the ability to forgive. Who forgives our sins? Jesus TELLS us.

Matthew 6

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


2. Jesus is sinless because He's the only-begotten Son OF God. When Lucifer rebelled, he took some of the angels with him, so they too are capable of sin. Only Jesus, as the only-begotten, can not sin.

3. The Father is the True Saviour. He's the one who SENT Jesus. Jesus is considered Saviour because He did ALL the Father asked of Him. Here's all the verses in the KJV with the word "Saviour"

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

4. "everlasting" because He IS the Son OF God - created from the Father's very essence.

5. No human called Jesus "Emmanuel" in the Bible. The angel was speaking to Mary. Isaiah 9:6 is the Father's words THROUGH Isaiah.

6. Eternal because Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.

7. Jesus NEVER once proclaimed that "I am God". AND He states that He is NOT EQUAL to the Father. The "before Abraham I am" and "the Father and I are one" verses are taken out of context by trinitarian and other doctrines.

8. I don't see a difference between "soul" and "spirit", as neither continue to exist after the final "white throne" judgement by Jesus.

How does Jesus sit at the Father's right hand and claim that the Father is God Himself, IF the statements Jesus makes are NOT TRUE?

John 20

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

....21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Matthew 16

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant



Help me please. I have always understood it as I said in my previous post. That God is one. Not 3 separate person. But triune as whole.

I believe in God our Father, I believe in Jesus the Son, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Why is this wrong?
Beneneth

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02/20/2019 03:33 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
If Jesus was created, then there was a time before he was created. That means there was a time when the father did not have a son, where he had no one to love, that somehow, in creating Jesus, he became more that he was.

Unitarian craziness.
Jesus is Lord
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/20/2019 03:40 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Help me please. I have always understood it as I said in my previous post. That God is one. Not 3 separate person. But triune as whole.

I believe in God our Father, I believe in Jesus the Son, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Why is this wrong?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


I also believe in God, His Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't accept the doctrine that they are equal because scripture proves they are not.

It all starts with the Father. It's His Will that is being done.

Jesus does the Father's Will.
The Holy Spirit does the Father's Will.
Neither of them do things "of their own accord" / will.

Jesus was firstborn of creation. Cut and dried. He was with the Father during creation, doing as the Father did by "seeing" what the Father was doing.

Jesus was sent.
The Holy Spirit gets "sent".

Sending someone or something requires authority.

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" among other things...including the fact that He sits at the Father's right hand.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 03:50 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
If Jesus was created, then there was a time before he was created. That means there was a time when the father did not have a son, where he had no one to love, that somehow, in creating Jesus, he became more that he was.

Unitarian craziness.
 Quoting: Beneneth


As II understand it, Jesus is eternal, He was never NOT existing. He was with God before the creation of the world. Jesus was begotten not created.
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 04:02 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Help me please. I have always understood it as I said in my previous post. That God is one. Not 3 separate person. But triune as whole.

I believe in God our Father, I believe in Jesus the Son, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Why is this wrong?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


I also believe in God, His Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't accept the doctrine that they are equal because scripture proves they are not.

It all starts with the Father. It's His Will that is being done.

Jesus does the Father's Will.
The Holy Spirit does the Father's Will.
Neither of them do things "of their own accord" / will.

Jesus was firstborn of creation. Cut and dried. He was with the Father during creation, doing as the Father did by "seeing" what the Father was doing.

Jesus was sent.
The Holy Spirit gets "sent".

Sending someone or something requires authority.

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" among other things...including the fact that He sits at the Father's right hand.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


The way I understand is that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

One in essence. All of them are God.
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/20/2019 04:10 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
If Jesus was created, then there was a time before he was created. That means there was a time when the father did not have a son, where he had no one to love, that somehow, in creating Jesus, he became more that he was.

Unitarian craziness.
 Quoting: Beneneth


As II understand it, Jesus is eternal, He was never NOT existing. He was with God before the creation of the world. Jesus was begotten not created.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


You are stuck between these 2 choices...

1. The Bible is wrong. God CAN die.

OR

2. Your "belief" that "Jesus is God" is wrong.

...........................................

Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus was "firstborn of creation".

Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus was "firstborn of the dead".

God the Father was NEVER "born".

So therefore, God, the Father, created Jesus.

And being both a "created entity", AND having been SENT to earth BY the Father, is "how" Jesus died.

This verse in Revelation clearly shows Jesus as both "firstborn of creation" AND "firstborn of the dead".

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

God Himself didn't die for us.

The Son OF God did.

----------------------------------------------

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Jesus died. He stated so right there underlined.

It's accepted that God - the Father - can NOT die.

KJV Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

KJV Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

------------------------------------

John 10

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.This commandment have I received of my Father.

I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
anonymous
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02/20/2019 04:13 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
This Bible "scholar" will deny John 1 as well as Jesus quote "My Father and I are ONE", "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father". God is a family with many "sons and daughters" soon to come, Romans 8.
Beneneth

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02/20/2019 04:15 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
If Jesus was created, then there was a time before he was created. That means there was a time when the father did not have a son, where he had no one to love, that somehow, in creating Jesus, he became more that he was.

Unitarian craziness.
 Quoting: Beneneth


As II understand it, Jesus is eternal, He was never NOT existing. He was with God before the creation of the world. Jesus was begotten not created.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581



Jesus is eternal, firstborn refers to status.

The word monogenes, rendered ‘the One and Only’ in 1:14 by the NIV, is in some other translations rendered ‘only begotten’. That the word should be translated as ‘the One and Only’ is confirmed by its usage elsewhere in the NT, where it is found a total of nine times. It is found three times in the Gospel of Luke: once to describe the ‘one and only son’ of the widow of Nain (Luke 7:12), once to describe the ‘one and only daughter’ of Jairus (Luke 8:42), and once to describe the ‘one and only son’ of the man who sought Jesus’ help for his demon-possessed boy (Luke 9:38). It is found once in Hebrews, where Isaac, whom Abraham was about to sacrifice, is described as his ‘one and only’ son (Heb. 11:17)—in Abraham’s case his one and only son by Sarah. In each of these cases the expression is used to add poignancy to a story by highlighting the fact that it was the person’s ‘one and only’ child who was in dire need, was threatened or had died. The stress is not upon the fact that the person was begotten of the father or mother concerned but upon the fact that the father or mother had only one child and that that child was the one who was so sadly affected. It is found once in 1 John 4:9, where the author emphasizes the fact that the one whom God sent into the world was his ‘one and only’ Son. Once again the emphasis is not that Jesus was ‘begotten’ of God but that God had only one Son, and this ‘one and only’ Son he sent into the world that ‘we might live through him’.
In the Gospel of John monogenes is used in three other places and in each case it is used in relation to Jesus as God’s Son. In 1:18 we are told that ‘No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (monogenes), who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.’ And in 3:16 we find, ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only (ton monogene) Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.’ Finally, in 3:18 we read, ‘whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only
 Quoting: Kruse, C. G. (2003). John: an introduction and commentary (Vol. 4, pp. 71–72). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

Jesus is Lord
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/20/2019 04:28 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Help me please. I have always understood it as I said in my previous post. That God is one. Not 3 separate person. But triune as whole.

I believe in God our Father, I believe in Jesus the Son, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Why is this wrong?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


I also believe in God, His Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't accept the doctrine that they are equal because scripture proves they are not.

It all starts with the Father. It's His Will that is being done.

Jesus does the Father's Will.
The Holy Spirit does the Father's Will.
Neither of them do things "of their own accord" / will.

Jesus was firstborn of creation. Cut and dried. He was with the Father during creation, doing as the Father did by "seeing" what the Father was doing.

Jesus was sent.
The Holy Spirit gets "sent".

Sending someone or something requires authority.

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" among other things...including the fact that He sits at the Father's right hand.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


The way I understand is that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

One in essence. All of them are God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Either you didn't read or understand what I said - backed up by scripture.

There is God the Father. Jesus states EXACTLY that in John 20:17.

Then there is the Holy Spirit & Jesus, BOTH of whom do NOTHING of their own will. They do the Father's Will.

The Father has complete control and authority over both.

The Father GAVE authority over heaven and earth to Jesus because the Son is TRUSTED to do the Father's Will.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 04:31 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
If Jesus was created, then there was a time before he was created. That means there was a time when the father did not have a son, where he had no one to love, that somehow, in creating Jesus, he became more that he was.

Unitarian craziness.
 Quoting: Beneneth


As II understand it, Jesus is eternal, He was never NOT existing. He was with God before the creation of the world. Jesus was begotten not created.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


You are stuck between these 2 choices...

1. The Bible is wrong. God CAN die.

OR

2. Your "belief" that "Jesus is God" is wrong.

...........................................

Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus was "firstborn of creation".

Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus was "firstborn of the dead".

God the Father was NEVER "born".

So therefore, God, the Father, created Jesus.

And being both a "created entity", AND having been SENT to earth BY the Father, is "how" Jesus died.

This verse in Revelation clearly shows Jesus as both "firstborn of creation" AND "firstborn of the dead".

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

God Himself didn't die for us.

The Son OF God did.

----------------------------------------------

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Jesus died. He stated so right there underlined.

It's accepted that God - the Father - can NOT die.

KJV Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

KJV Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

------------------------------------

John 10

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.This commandment have I received of my Father.

 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
DGN

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02/20/2019 07:01 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
I have read this thread over and over. There are things I can't understand.

How can Jesus forgive sin if He is not God?

How could Jesus be sinless if He is not God?

How can Jesus be Savior if He is not God?

How can Jesus be from everlasting to everlasting if He is not God, but a creation?

Why would he be called Emmanuel, God with us, if He is not God?

How can His dominion be everlasting, and His Kingdom never be destroyed if He is not God which is eternal?


From my understanding, Jesus has said He is God, and He is the Son of God, and that He is the son of man, and The Messiah/Christ. And as far as making Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into 3 sperate persons, that is not at all true. It is the 3 natures of God that represent one wholeness. God is one. Same and Body, Soul, and Spirit. They aren't 3 separate beings, but 3 aspects of the nature of one being human.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Good questions'
1. "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
" For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." Jo5:21

2. He did not inherit sin, he had no sinful earthly father.
"“Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Ro5:12

3. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him" Jo3:16

4. Jesus having been created is correct, everlasting is false.
"To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God" rv3:14

5.He is God's spokesman, his 'word'
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth," Col1:13

Jesus will reign for 1,000 years (whatever that means) then after healing all Satan's reign of terror hurt he will hand creation back over to God.
" Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1Cor15:24
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 07:34 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
I have read this thread over and over. There are things I can't understand.

How can Jesus forgive sin if He is not God?

How could Jesus be sinless if He is not God?

How can Jesus be Savior if He is not God?

How can Jesus be from everlasting to everlasting if He is not God, but a creation?

Why would he be called Emmanuel, God with us, if He is not God?

How can His dominion be everlasting, and His Kingdom never be destroyed if He is not God which is eternal?


From my understanding, Jesus has said He is God, and He is the Son of God, and that He is the son of man, and The Messiah/Christ. And as far as making Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into 3 sperate persons, that is not at all true. It is the 3 natures of God that represent one wholeness. God is one. Same and Body, Soul, and Spirit. They aren't 3 separate beings, but 3 aspects of the nature of one being human.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Good questions'
1. "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
" For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." Jo5:21

2. He did not inherit sin, he had no sinful earthly father.
"“Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Ro5:12

3. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him" Jo3:16

4. Jesus having been created is correct, everlasting is false.
"To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God" rv3:14

5.He is God's spokesman, his 'word'
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth," Col1:13

Jesus will reign for 1,000 years (whatever that means) then after healing all Satan's reign of terror hurt he will hand creation back over to God.
" Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1Cor15:24
 Quoting: DGN


Ok so the Father is God?

Jesus is the Son of God but not God in flesh?

Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God but not God?
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/20/2019 10:31 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Good questions'
1. "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
" For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." Jo5:21

2. He did not inherit sin, he had no sinful earthly father.
"“Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Ro5:12

3. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him" Jo3:16

4. Jesus having been created is correct, everlasting is false.
"To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God" rv3:14

5.He is God's spokesman, his 'word'
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth," Col1:13

Jesus will reign for 1,000 years (whatever that means) then after healing all Satan's reign of terror hurt he will hand creation back over to God.
" Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1Cor15:24
 Quoting: DGN


Ok so the Father is God?

Jesus is the Son of God but not God in flesh?

Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God but not God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


1. Father is God
2. Jesus is Son OF God - came in the flesh
3. Holy Spirit is OF God but makes no decisions - more like a messenger (think Pentecost) and a "library" (reminded the Gospel writer of what Jesus actually said). Also is a "conduit" God puts inside of you in case He ever actually talks to you. "A tiny piece of the Father".
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/20/2019 10:34 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/20/2019 10:44 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant

Jesus is God.
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant

Jesus is God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77389893


What part of "Son OF God" is it that you don't understand?

You're stuck in Pauline trinitarianism. Read through the entire topic. Refute with scripture what I have posted.

Everyone gave it their best shot. THere is NO scripture that states "Jesus IS God".

The vast majority of scripture states Jesus is the Son OF God.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/21/2019 09:09 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


I understand Jesus is not the Father, however I don't understand how Jesus is not God. And I agree Jesus is the Son of God. But I also have issues understanding why certain scripture says he was God manifest in flesh if it isn't true, and the Bible was written through Holy Spirit, then it is perfect.

I guess basically I am having issues where its wrong to believe in God being triune.

I will certainly be praying about this issue, as I don't want to believe something that isn't truth.

I'm not at all refuting any scripture you have posted, or any of Jesus's words. So do not think I am, I am whole heartedly trying to understand things so I apologize if I am making you frustrated, that's not my intention.
Anonymous Coward
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02/21/2019 10:58 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


I understand Jesus is not the Father, however I don't understand how Jesus is not God. And I agree Jesus is the Son of God. But I also have issues understanding why certain scripture says he was God manifest in flesh if it isn't true, and the Bible was written through Holy Spirit, then it is perfect.

I guess basically I am having issues where its wrong to believe in God being triune.

I will certainly be praying about this issue, as I don't want to believe something that isn't truth.

I'm not at all refuting any scripture you have posted, or any of Jesus's words. So do not think I am, I am whole heartedly trying to understand things so I apologize if I am making you frustrated, that's not my intention.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Also, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Jesus told us to be. But Christians in Acts were baptized in Jesus name.

So that is another thing I am trying to understand.
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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02/21/2019 11:31 AM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


I understand Jesus is not the Father, however I don't understand how Jesus is not God. And I agree Jesus is the Son of God. But I also have issues understanding why certain scripture says he was God manifest in flesh if it isn't true, and the Bible was written through Holy Spirit, then it is perfect.

I guess basically I am having issues where its wrong to believe in God being triune.

I will certainly be praying about this issue, as I don't want to believe something that isn't truth.

I'm not at all refuting any scripture you have posted, or any of Jesus's words. So do not think I am, I am whole heartedly trying to understand things so I apologize if I am making you frustrated, that's not my intention.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Also, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Jesus told us to be. But Christians in Acts were baptized in Jesus name.

So that is another thing I am trying to understand.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581

No worries.

Paul's verse about "manifest in the flesh" comes from the fact that he didn't benefit from Jesus teachings to the others. He dealt only with Jesus' "spirit form" - not His human form - and NOT even His resurrected form. And he had no "experiences" with the Father like the Apostles had like hearing His voice at the Transfiguration.

Even still...look at the beginning verses of ALL of Paul's letters. He clearly distinguishes the Father from Jesus.

There is One God - which Jesus declared to be the Father.
Jesus' own words state that He is NOT equal to the Father.

The Apostles - even Jesus - didn't teach a "triune God". The "concept" was first truly brought up by Tertullian in the 2nd century. The Catholics admit to tweaking the "baptise" verse in Matthew 28:19, which is why it's different than Acts etc...

I wouldn't worry about how you were baptised. The thief on the cross wasn't even baptised.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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03/12/2019 10:33 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Here's the opening verses to all of Paul's letters, where he constantly differentiates between Father God and the Son Jesus. Salutations from BOTH the Father AND the Son.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galations 1

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians 1

1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Last Edited by TheLordsServant on 03/12/2019 10:34 PM
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
DMJ

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03/12/2019 10:45 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
bumpfor tomorrow, looks like a good read.

Thank you.
Anonymous Coward
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04/10/2019 11:00 PM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
The infinite Almighty God exceeds the finite capabilities of your understanding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47132336


You seem to be a proud, boastful authoritarian type.

Regretful
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
bump
Wondering Mind

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04/16/2019 04:25 AM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Help me please. I have always understood it as I said in my previous post. That God is one. Not 3 separate person. But triune as whole.

I believe in God our Father, I believe in Jesus the Son, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. Why is this wrong?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


I also believe in God, His Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't accept the doctrine that they are equal because scripture proves they are not.

It all starts with the Father. It's His Will that is being done.

Jesus does the Father's Will.
The Holy Spirit does the Father's Will.
Neither of them do things "of their own accord" / will.

Jesus was firstborn of creation. Cut and dried. He was with the Father during creation, doing as the Father did by "seeing" what the Father was doing.

Jesus was sent.
The Holy Spirit gets "sent".

Sending someone or something requires authority.

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I" among other things...including the fact that He sits at the Father's right hand.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Jesus set and example before those whom He appeared unto. There was no way for them to see God and follow God in His likeness which is invisible, since God is a spirit, except that God take on the form of man in which He created in His own likeness, as so that He could appear before man and they live instead of die in their form or flesh before God, none could see God whom is a spirit and live, except through the Way He planned and set and kept, from the very beginning unto His own people He created and even called the sons of God, just as He promised He would He did appear unto them.
They could see Him face to face, they could walk with Him and eat with Him, they could hear Him and they could follow Him, like a son would their father while growing up to be like Him they did just that, they stove to be like Him and in His likeness be.
While this was also from the beginning after the fall of Adam the very Promise He would come again to Redeem their life back unto eternal, Life Everlasting and that would require God to die for them and could only be done if He God as lowered to the same body of flesh that perishes/dies, to gather back His people unto Salvation and unto Him own self and His own Estate/realm that would be their Home when they depart from their temporary bodies of flesh.

There could be no appearance and example through teaching and living with them except The Way He did it and that to establish His Words of Salvation and Redemption unto many many others long after He departed from theirs and ours sight.
He also abided temporarily in a body of flesh like them knowing He would no longer be seen by any once He died for them and returned to His invisible state.

They knew Him in a state we never saw Him in and yet while He still is and even more unto us invisible He is unto us all who believe in Him we cannot see face to face, even millennial of time since they who walked with Him did and witnessed all even His death and Resurrections and Departure.

There is but One Lord and One God and The Lord God is One and the same, except like man he dwelt among temporally for the Saving unto Him own self His in which He loves and Promised He would redeem back unto Him His.

We cannot say that Christ Jesus dwelling in flesh with us is God in the flesh any longer and never were to relate God to a eternal living man of flesh.
While we also cannot deem His Works on the Cross and in flesh for us not the Works of God which He is.
We know the Ways He went and the Ways He came and the Way He now remain in.

It is only a difference in His own State He Himself moved and dwelt in for us all. He is limitless in what He can do and always True to His Word and Way no matter what state He appears unto us as or in or through.

We are blessed to have never seen Him and still believe in Him that is our Lord and our God, he is everything to us in all His ways and always will be.
The most precious things are the simple things in life, always present in the simplest of minds.
Anonymous Coward
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04/16/2019 04:48 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
These are over 320 verses in which Jesus...

1. States who He is.
2. States that He was SENT, and WHY He was sent.
-sending requires authority.
3. Declares the soveriegn nature of the Father.
4. Declares the kingdom of the Father (not HIS kingdom).


The word "Father" occurs 250 times in 212 verses in Matthew thru John in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Of those 250 times, there are 224 verses where either Jesus or the Apostles refer to the "Father" - God.
-----------------------------------------

The phrase "my Father" occurs 56 times in 53 verses, all in the 4 Gospels & Revelation in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
------------------------------------------

The phrase "the Father" occurs 143 times in 125 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Jesus uses the phrase "the Father" 59 times
The Apostles use it another 50 times
----------------------------------------

The phrase "our Father" 19 verses in the KJV

The phrase "your Father" 15 verses in the 4 Gospels

The phrase "thy Father" 3 verses in Matthew

The phrase "heavenly Father" 6 verses in the 4 Gospels

Jesus uses just the word "Father" 19 verses in the 4 Gospels

----------------------------------------
Jesus states that He was "SENT" 47 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "Son of God" is used 28 times in the 4 Gospels
The phrase "Son of God" is used 19 times in Acts thru Revelation

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of God" (NOT "MY kingdom") is used 54 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times - NOT "MY kingdom" - (ALL in Matthew)

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
-----------------------------------------

Those who claim that Jesus is the Father Himself / God Almighty say this God praying to & talking to Himself?

It should be pointed out that nowhere in the Old Testament does God the Father pray to Himself.


That is 4000 YEARS or more.

I claim that John 17 is the Son of God praying to & talking to OUR Father!

When you read John 17, imagine that you are watching Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

John 17 KJV

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 Quoting: TheLordsServant





I have very little doubt that you are as lost as they come.

You definitely do not know Christ.

You do not even know the most important thing there is to know about him.

There is coming a day when you will hear these words, echo in your mind, just before your knee bows.
Anonymous Coward
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04/16/2019 04:50 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
The infinite Almighty God exceeds the finite capabilities of your understanding.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47132336


You seem to be a proud, boastful authoritarian type.

Regretful
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77360069


He wasn't "boasting", Canucktard.

How is stating a fact and giving credit to God being "proud, boastful, and authoritarian"?
Anonymous Coward
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04/16/2019 04:55 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581


Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


I understand Jesus is not the Father, however I don't understand how Jesus is not God. And I agree Jesus is the Son of God. But I also have issues understanding why certain scripture says he was God manifest in flesh if it isn't true, and the Bible was written through Holy Spirit, then it is perfect.

I guess basically I am having issues where its wrong to believe in God being triune.

I will certainly be praying about this issue, as I don't want to believe something that isn't truth.

I'm not at all refuting any scripture you have posted, or any of Jesus's words. So do not think I am, I am whole heartedly trying to understand things so I apologize if I am making you frustrated, that's not my intention.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77356581



Yeshua (AKA "Jesus") is the Creator of all, and the Judge over all, as started by the Father.

Yeshua (Immanuel) was literally "God with us".

Go look at Psalms 2 and Hebrews 1.

The OP is a long time assassin on Christ, and who he really is. Yeshua will likely tell him to depart from Him, when the time comes.

I've read enough threads from this person to know that he doesn't know Yeshua, let alone who Yeshua really is.
Anonymous Coward
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04/16/2019 04:56 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
"... stated by the father" ^^^


Typo correction
Atlan
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04/16/2019 08:13 AM
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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
"... stated by the father" ^^^


Typo correction
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65119391


I am the Almighty God Jesus spoke of, ask me anything
TheLordsServant  (OP)

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04/17/2019 09:12 PM

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Re: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More
Yeshua (AKA "Jesus") is the Creator of all, and the Judge over all, as started by the Father.

Yeshua (Immanuel) was literally "God with us".

Go look at Psalms 2 and Hebrews 1.

The OP is a long time assassin on Christ, and who he really is. Yeshua will likely tell him to depart from Him, when the time comes.

I've read enough threads from this person to know that he doesn't know Yeshua, let alone who Yeshua really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65119391


You think that YOU know Yeshua?

You don't even believe what He SAID.

Jesus is the Creator of all?

That's odd - since EVERYTHING that Jesus KNOWS was shown to Him BY the Father.

...the Father SENT me
...I say what the Father has said. John 12:49-50

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


...I learned / do as the Father has showed me. John 5:19

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.