Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More - Bible Study

You've written much truth here. Thx for the affirmation of what I "know" has been revealed to me. Knowing any of the mysteries, must come from "knowing Him intimately," after first seeking Him / Kingdom. He is generous to reveal the mysteries to those who ask sincerely & wait for His answers! I work to hear him well, one must shut out the world & it's nonsense. You're right He doesn't change, Perfection need not change, it's Timeless and with that kind of constant companion, Peace is at hand. Thanks for your beautiful response.

When something new comes to town, there are several phases of news;

First you talk about what they did...the action.

Later, you think about what they said.

Still later, you go back and father as much information about the person as you can, and analyze it.

Finally, you understand it, at its symbolic meaning.

This is how the gospels are laid out.

John had been with and in Christ for some 60 years when he wrote his gospel, the only original disciple to die of natural causes, because Jesus gave him the task of looking after his mother, as well as writing Revelations for this generation today.

John is, by far, my favorite gospel.

Accepted

John 1 (NKJV)

17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

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29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

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34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."

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49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

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51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/15/2017 11:41 AM

2 distinct beings



You forget that God the Father declared that Moses should remove his sandels as he was standing on "Holy Ground". If Jesus was God the Father in human form He would have told the disciples the same thing.

God the Father can NOT show his face to ANY human. Exodus 33... 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

And Jesus comment about "I am" is merely stating the He existed BEFORE Abraham.



The Lamb first appears in Revelation in Chapter 5, and it is clear that this happens in FRONT of God's throne.

How can God the Father Himself be the Lamb, when it's clear in Revelation 4 that the Father is sitting on the throne?

The Lamb is Jesus, not the Father!



"Jesus wasn't yet glorified"?

Jesus states in J17 that He had glory previously.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.




"has been given" indicates a transaction between two distinct beings.



Jesus states in Luke 22:69 Hereafter* shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Acts 7...55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

The Father wouldn't sit at His own right hand. It's clear that Jesus sits on the right hand side of the Father. This makes Jesus a separate being from the Father.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/15/2017 12:28 PM

Jesus said "follow me". What did Jesus do for prayer?

He prayed to the Father AND gave us the Lord's Prayer.

Does God the Father pray to Himself? Nope.

And what did the Father tell Moses about human's not being able to see Him (Exodus 33)?

Finally, Jesus mentions the Father / "who sent me" over 230 times in the 4 Gospels?

If Jesus is the Father Himself, ALL of the verses containing such are unecessary, and John 17 wouldn't have been written at all.



How is it you folks mention John 20:28 but ignore what John states in verse 31..."Son of God".

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 12/11/2018 10:12 PM

I have a limited concept?

What does scripture say?

FACT: Jesus prayed to the Father and gave us the Lord's Prayer.

Did Jesus lie? Nope.

Where in the Bible does Jesus say "pray to me"?

Where in the Bible does Jesus say "worship me"?

NOWHERE in the Bible does Jesus tell ANYONE to worship Him or to pray to Him.

You follow a human's interpretation of the Bible. Scriptures clearly say that your interpretation is wrong. You people take scattered verses from various books of the Bible and then create a "concept", which eventually becomes a doctrine.

Don't you find it ironic that the Old Testament of today is virtually 100% the same as the Dead Sea Scrolls?

How is it that the Bible itself is basically 2000 years old?

Do you not think that God and His Son have had a hand in that? Is there not a reason for that?

Jesus is Divine for sure...He is the Son of God. And He tells us that SEVERAL TIMES in recorded scripture.

So you are saying that Jesus LIED about who He is?

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/17/2017 05:48 PM

Jesus' own words...

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/19/2017 10:54 AM

There you go....taking partial verses to support a concept that's become doctrine. Notice what's actually said in the expanded passage from John 6

John 6:38 (KJV) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing**, but should raise it up again at the last day.


40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

4 MORE verses to add to those already presented

John 7:16 (KJV) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 8:26 (KJV) I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 12:49 (KJV) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 (KJV) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

What matters more....

1. What John was inspired to write?

OR

2. What Jesus actually said? His ACTUAL WORDS that the Holy Spirit wrote FOR John?

The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the 4 Gospels to write them. Except for the quotes of what Jesus ACTUALLY said, the writers used their own words. That's why there are slight differences in the stories.

But when you compare what each of them wrote concerning Jesus ACTUAL words, you will see they are almost 100% the same.

Get yourself a red letter Bible pdf)

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What answers do you have for these questions....

1. Does the Father pray to Himself?

Jesus prayed to the Father in Matthew 26:39 & 42 Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42 and ALL of John 17.

2. The Father told both Moses and Joshua to remove their sandels when He spoke to them. Did Jesus tell ANYONE to remove their sandels?

3. Jesus uses the name "God" / "Father" / "He who sent me" over 230 times. If Jesus was God Himself, wouldn't He have said "I" instead?

4. Jesus said "ask in My name" and "I am not good, only the Father in Heaven is good" (in Mark 10 & Luke 18). Would God Himself say things like that?

5. Satan challenged Jesus 3 times in the wilderness. Why did Jesus rebuke Satan all three times by mentioning "God"? Would the Father have done that?

6. Why does Jesus state that He only does "the Father's Will"? Wouldn't God say "MY Will"?

7. Jesus states that He sits at the right hand of the Father. How (and WHY) would the Father do that?

8. WHY does Jesus start the Lord's Prayer with "Our Father"?

9. WHY does Jesus NOT KNOW when He is going to return?

10. Did Jesus say "pray to me"..."worship me"?

11. Jesus stated several times that He "was sent". How or why would the Father "send Himself"?

12. In John 3:16 Jesus states He is the "only-begotten Son". Did Jesus lie?

***Bonus Question***

Why does Jesus have to return / ascend to Heaven BEFORE the Holy Spirit is SENT

You can't answer those questions without admitting that Jesus is the SON of GOD!

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/29/2018 12:44 PM

Forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth, because people are lost in the letter that kills the truth.

Jesus said to SEEK FIRST the Kingdom of God AND his righteousness, and all this things will be ADDED unto you.


Instead people completely ignore what Jesus said, in vain worshipping him and honouring with your lips but your hearts are far from him.


The word is with God and at the beginning there was the word.

And where the end is, so is the beginning.

GO comes first so seek God within, in Spirit.

Scripture comes second.

Hey this is Photine. Just wanted to apologize for being so stupid a long time ago defending the trinity.

You are right, Jesus is not God. Jesus is God's Son. The Father alone is God.

The trinity is a false god.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Messiah makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Messiah says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Messiah is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Messiah declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Messiah emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Messiah and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Messiah' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation



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Bible says that God is not man

‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)
Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible

‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

‘Messiah the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

‘the man Christ’ (Tim. 2:5)
The Bible says that God is not a son of man

‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

The Bible often calls Messiah ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’

‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)

‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)

‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)

‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)

‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)

In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).

Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called ‘the son of man’, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called ‘son of man’ specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a ‘son of man’ according to the Bible.
The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God

Messiah spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)
Jesus did not teach people that he was God

If Messiah had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.
The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

Messiah cannot be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.
Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him

‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)

‘The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)
If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself

Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

No need to apologize friend.

I am thankful that you've been led to the truth.

What I say isn't my own words. It's the Holy Spirit working through me....pointing out scripture...giving me the words to type / say.

All Glory to God, and to His only-begotten Son Jesus, the Christ!

Thank you AC for posting this.

In particular, your verses about the "son of man" confirmed what the Holy Spirit was pointing out to me last night.

Jesus called Himself the Son of Man several times, and God called Ezekiel "son of man" several times too.

John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

....21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Be careful of people when they say, "for it is written."

Guess who else said that?

See Matthew 4:6 and see who else said "for it is written."

It was not Jesus, nor any of the prophets or disciples.

I find it 17 times in the new testament.

"it is written" 80 times

But, who said it in Matthew 4:6?

Yes, devil taketh him up intothe holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple.
I get your point of that, was just correcting your last sentence brother.

Not sure I follow?

I was pointing out that even Satan can quote Scripture and to be careful even when a person uses Scripture because it all depends upon who is quoting it. In that last sentence I said, "It was not Jesus, nor any of the prophets or disciples." because it was Satan quoting. Thus, implying that sometimes scripture is misused by example of Matt. 4:6.

Is that unclear? Just trying to understand my mistake.

Christ’s bride is the church. When a man and a woman marry, they become one flesh. Jesus is praying for his bride the church. He prayed to keep his bride safe til he returns. He prays that we will be one with him just as the father is one with him. I’m sure there is more meanings in this that are not clear but this point of view of Christ’s prayers for his bride, the church are plainly evident.

Scripture gets misused by folks who take snippets and then make claims about various things that can easily be rebuked with other scriptures.



That said...Satan was quoting Psalm 91

9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

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Oh really? I wonder who would do that?

I'm trying to think of someone who does that.

I just can't imagine anyone who.........wait......

Yep...scripture...even Jesus' own words...prove that the THEORY of "Jesus is the Father" is wrong.

Whew boy!!!!......

You're about to get a heaping plateful of copy and paste and a side of "Jesus is not God."

Hope that you are hungry!

HAha no amount of dis info and verse clipping can alter the fact... the anti christ spirit is tenacious... All one needs it to post the WHOLE Biblical narrative to see who is God and who is not...We are to be circumspect in our understanding and the Holy Ghost leads us each into truth (if ) we desire it from our Lord. We can handle it :)

Agree with all of that.

Sometimes I get so tired. Gotta finish though. :)