Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More - Bible Study

You are stuck between these 2 choices...

1. The Bible is wrong. God CAN die.

OR

2. Your "belief" that "Jesus is God" is wrong.

...........................................

Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus was "firstborn of creation".

Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus was "firstborn of the dead".

God the Father was NEVER "born".

So therefore, God, the Father, created Jesus.

And being both a "created entity", AND having been SENT to earth BY the Father, is "how" Jesus died.

This verse in Revelation clearly shows Jesus as both "firstborn of creation" AND "firstborn of the dead".

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

God Himself didn't die for us.

The Son OF God did.

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Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus died. He stated so right there underlined.

It's accepted that God - the Father - can NOT die.

KJV Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

KJV Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

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John 10

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.This commandment have I received of my Father.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/14/2019 12:44 AM

This Bible "scholar" will deny John 1 as well as Jesus quote "My Father and I are ONE", "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father". God is a family with many "sons and daughters" soon to come, Romans 8.

Jesus is eternal, firstborn refers to status.

Either you didn't read or understand what I said - backed up by scripture.

There is God the Father. Jesus states EXACTLY that in John 20:17.

Then there is the Holy Spirit & Jesus, BOTH of whom do NOTHING of their own will. They do the Father's Will.

The Father has complete control and authority over both.

The Father GAVE authority over heaven and earth to Jesus because the Son is TRUSTED to do the Father's Will.

Jesus was God and man. His physical body died. God did not die, but the flesh body Jesus was in died. So I'm not sure about the 1-2 ultimatum?

I really am trying to understand this.......

Good questions'
1. "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
" For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." Jo5:21

2. He did not inherit sin, he had no sinful earthly father.
"“Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Ro5:12

3. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him" Jo3:16

4. Jesus having been created is correct, everlasting is false.
"To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God" rv3:14

5.He is God's spokesman, his 'word'
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth," Col1:13

Jesus will reign for 1,000 years (whatever that means) then after healing all Satan's reign of terror hurt he will hand creation back over to God.
" Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1Cor15:24

Ok so the Father is God?

Jesus is the Son of God but not God in flesh?

Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God but not God?

1. Father is God
2. Jesus is Son OF God - came in the flesh
3. Holy Spirit is OF God but makes no decisions - more like a messenger (think Pentecost) and a "library" (reminded the Gospel writer of what Jesus actually said). Also is a "conduit" God puts inside of you in case He ever actually talks to you. "A tiny piece of the Father".

Jesus was Son OF God in the flesh.

Not the Father Himself.

Forget the 1-2 - I meant to edit it before posting.

Jesus is God.

What part of "Son OF God" is it that you don't understand?

You're stuck in Pauline trinitarianism. Read through the entire topic. Refute with scripture what I have posted.

Everyone gave it their best shot. THere is NO scripture that states "Jesus IS God".

The vast majority of scripture states Jesus is the Son OF God.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I understand Jesus is not the Father, however I don't understand how Jesus is not God. And I agree Jesus is the Son of God. But I also have issues understanding why certain scripture says he was God manifest in flesh if it isn't true, and the Bible was written through Holy Spirit, then it is perfect.

I guess basically I am having issues where its wrong to believe in God being triune.

I will certainly be praying about this issue, as I don't want to believe something that isn't truth.

I'm not at all refuting any scripture you have posted, or any of Jesus's words. So do not think I am, I am whole heartedly trying to understand things so I apologize if I am making you frustrated, that's not my intention.

Also, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Jesus told us to be. But Christians in Acts were baptized in Jesus name.

So that is another thing I am trying to understand.

No worries.

Paul's verse about "manifest in the flesh" comes from the fact that he didn't benefit from Jesus teachings to the others. He dealt only with Jesus' "spirit form" - not His human form - and NOT even His resurrected form. And he had no "experiences" with the Father like the Apostles had like hearing His voice at the Transfiguration.

Even still...look at the beginning verses of ALL of Paul's letters. He clearly distinguishes the Father from Jesus.

There is One God - which Jesus declared to be the Father.
Jesus' own words state that He is NOT equal to the Father.

The Apostles - even Jesus - didn't teach a "triune God". The "concept" was first truly brought up by Tertullian in the 2nd century. The Catholics admit to tweaking the "baptise" verse in Matthew 28:19, which is why it's different than Acts etc...

I wouldn't worry about how you were baptised. The thief on the cross wasn't even baptised.

Here's the opening verses to all of Paul's letters, where he constantly differentiates between Father God and the Son Jesus. Salutations from BOTH the Father AND the Son.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galations 1

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians 1

1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 03/12/2019 10:34 PM

for tomorrow, looks like a good read.

Thank you.

You seem to be a proud, boastful authoritarian type.

Regretful

Jesus set and example before those whom He appeared unto. There was no way for them to see God and follow God in His likeness which is invisible, since God is a spirit, except that God take on the form of man in which He created in His own likeness, as so that He could appear before man and they live instead of die in their form or flesh before God, none could see God whom is a spirit and live, except through the Way He planned and set and kept, from the very beginning unto His own people He created and even called the sons of God, just as He promised He would He did appear unto them.
They could see Him face to face, they could walk with Him and eat with Him, they could hear Him and they could follow Him, like a son would their father while growing up to be like Him they did just that, they stove to be like Him and in His likeness be.
While this was also from the beginning after the fall of Adam the very Promise He would come again to Redeem their life back unto eternal, Life Everlasting and that would require God to die for them and could only be done if He God as lowered to the same body of flesh that perishes/dies, to gather back His people unto Salvation and unto Him own self and His own Estate/realm that would be their Home when they depart from their temporary bodies of flesh.

There could be no appearance and example through teaching and living with them except The Way He did it and that to establish His Words of Salvation and Redemption unto many many others long after He departed from theirs and ours sight.
He also abided temporarily in a body of flesh like them knowing He would no longer be seen by any once He died for them and returned to His invisible state.

They knew Him in a state we never saw Him in and yet while He still is and even more unto us invisible He is unto us all who believe in Him we cannot see face to face, even millennial of time since they who walked with Him did and witnessed all even His death and Resurrections and Departure.

There is but One Lord and One God and The Lord God is One and the same, except like man he dwelt among temporally for the Saving unto Him own self His in which He loves and Promised He would redeem back unto Him His.

We cannot say that Christ Jesus dwelling in flesh with us is God in the flesh any longer and never were to relate God to a eternal living man of flesh.
While we also cannot deem His Works on the Cross and in flesh for us not the Works of God which He is.
We know the Ways He went and the Ways He came and the Way He now remain in.

It is only a difference in His own State He Himself moved and dwelt in for us all. He is limitless in what He can do and always True to His Word and Way no matter what state He appears unto us as or in or through.

We are blessed to have never seen Him and still believe in Him that is our Lord and our God, he is everything to us in all His ways and always will be.

I have very little doubt that you are as lost as they come.

You definitely do not know Christ.

You do not even know the most important thing there is to know about him.

There is coming a day when you will hear these words, echo in your mind, just before your knee bows.

He wasn't "boasting", Canucktard.

How is stating a fact and giving credit to God being "proud, boastful, and authoritarian"?

Yeshua (AKA "Jesus") is the Creator of all, and the Judge over all, as started by the Father.

Yeshua (Immanuel) was literally "God with us".

Go look at Psalms 2 and Hebrews 1.

The OP is a long time assassin on Christ, and who he really is. Yeshua will likely tell him to depart from Him, when the time comes.

I've read enough threads from this person to know that he doesn't know Yeshua, let alone who Yeshua really is.

"... stated by the father" ^^^


Typo correction

I am the Almighty God Jesus spoke of, ask me anything

You think that YOU know Yeshua?

You don't even believe what He SAID.

Jesus is the Creator of all?

That's odd - since EVERYTHING that Jesus KNOWS was shown to Him BY the Father.

...the Father SENT me
...I say what the Father has said. John 12:49-50

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


...I learned / do as the Father has showed me. John 5:19

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I'm not lost by any means.

You know nothing about me yet try to claim that I don't know Jesus / Yeshua - "the Christ". It's NOT Jesus' last name.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

These are titles for Jesus....NOT THE FATHER HIMSELF

"the Son OF God" 47 times in the NT

"Son of the most High God" Mark 5:7
"Son of the Highest" Luke 1:32
"Son of the Father" 2 John 1:3
"Son of the Blessed" Mark 14:61
"Son of the Living God" Matthew 16:16 & John 6:69
"the Christ" Matthew 16:16 & John 6:69
"the Lamb OF God" John 1:29
"Holy One OF God" Mark 1:24

"the Messiah" Daniel 9:25

"advocate with the Father" John 2:1
"a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec" Hebrews 5:6
"one mediator between God and men" 1 Timothy 2:5

The Father is Anu the most High.
In other words, El Elyon is the Jewish equivalent of Ouranos, El is Kronos/Enlil/ and Yahweh is the Jewish equivalent of Zeus/Marduk. The Sumerian god Enki is more like the serpent of Genesis, and strangely enough, even Jesus Christ and John the Baptist! Jesus is really the son of Ouranos, or the deity that is above and controls the dome. El Elyon also corresponds to the Sumerian Anu, as well. 
[link to theaeoneye.com (secure)]

Yes, God the Father, Jesus is the son of God who became man, the Spirit of God.

Now, let's look at the creation in Genesis and let's discuss because there is MUCH to discuss...

I think God the Father, Jesus in spirit before he became in flesh, and the Spirit were all part of creation. They are all one and yet separate. This is the challenging part to fathom or understand.

In Genesis 1:2, we see the spirit of God hovering over the waters.

In Genesis 1:26, God said "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness."
US and OUR need discussion as it is not just God the Father.


Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

***

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.


In John 1:1-5 Describes that at the beginning, was God, the son of God and the spirit. Jesus (in spirit form) is stated as being part of the beginning. Jesus is God is defined here as He was the word, the word was with God and the word WAS God and the light of all mankind. John states that the light was Jesus in John 1:8.



John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.


The Word was defined as God the father, the son, and the spirit. The entity is described/defined as one being/entity at the beginning in spirit form. At the beginning everything was created by God (the Father, the son, the spirit) combined.

John 1:6-15

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.



In John1:8, John is described as one who came not as the light, but as witness to the light.. who is Jesus.



In summation for discussion..

All 3 parts of God, are God, defined as scripture states above. They were there at the beginning and created everything. Later, God created and sent a part of himself in the flesh for us - Jesus - the son of God who became man. (John 1:14)

I challenge you to go back and READ THROUGH the entire topic thread - as I addressed MOST of the trinitarian angle you are presenting.

Jesus is the "spirit of God"?

NONSENSE. Scripture proves that wrong.

Jesus said He had to "return" to heaven BEFORE the Holy Spirit would be "sent" to the Apostles. I'd like to think that you KNOW the verses I'm referencing.

So....

Jesus was filled WITH Himself?

Was led to the wilderness by Himself?

Baptized Himself?

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Mark 1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

John 1

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

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Jesus is "a part of God"?

Really? Trinitarian NONSENSE.

The theory of Jesus being the HS completely ignores what Jesus said, and would have Jesus being afflicted with "Multiple Personality Disorder".

Matthew 12

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 09/05/2019 07:09 PM