Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,959 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 1,103,535
Pageviews Today: 1,996,120Threads Today: 879Posts Today: 15,358
10:32 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.

 
Shingen
Offer Upgrade

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 05:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
I keep hearing all of these arguments for and against guns.

One the one hand, people say that the 2nd amendment is out dated and that the founders could have never anticipated automatic weapons (which is ludicrous if you do the historical research).

Then you have the other side, proponents say the 2nd amendment is not about hunting, it's about defending against a tyranny of the government.

Well, the truth is:

Individual Americans have no legal right of self defense against the state. So, you're 2nd amendment has already been infringed.

If a darkly clad, heavily armed group of agents of the state descend on your domicile to extract you and whatever the fuck they want, you have NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR FAMILY, OR YOUR PROPERTY through force of arms.

If you do not comply, they will simply murder you, your entire family, your dog, and then take what they want.

Until the individual retains a RIGHT of self defense against the state, the 2nd amendment is null and void.

Last Edited by Shingen on 03/26/2018 05:53 PM
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18475932
United States
03/26/2018 05:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Then our founding is illegitimate and we should be obeying the English crown.

"In Congress, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

[link to www.archives.gov (secure)]
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 05:57 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
That's all well and good.

Meanwhile in the United States of America, private individuals retain no right of self defense against the state.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76081116
United States
03/26/2018 05:57 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

any "agent" that comes to forcefully remove your 2nd amendment right has betrayed their oath to the constitution and is instantly a tyrant.

Feed the Tree

militia
Liberty OR Death
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18475932
United States
03/26/2018 05:59 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
That's all well and good.

Meanwhile in the United States of America, private individuals retain no right of self defense against the state.
 Quoting: Shingen


If that is true, then there is no United States, because there is no legitimate US government.

So, you are wrong.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18475932
United States
03/26/2018 06:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
If our founding is illegitimate, then our government is illegitimate.
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

any "agent" that comes to forcefully remove your 2nd amendment right has betrayed their oath to the constitution and is instantly a tyrant.

Feed the Tree

militia
Liberty OR Death
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76081116


More bullshit!

Is all sounds good on the internet, BUT when a darkly clad, highly armed group of state agents knock down your door at 3AM for whatever reason, and you pull a firearm to defend yourself, you're going to be murdered.

It is what it is.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 72407298
United States
03/26/2018 06:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Unless they win. Winners write the rules.
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:05 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
If that is true, then there is no United States, because there is no legitimate US government.

So, you are wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18475932


Okay. So you think you have a legal right to defend yourself with force of arms against the police?

Last Edited by Shingen on 03/26/2018 06:05 PM
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
anonymous coward
User ID: 76076258
United States
03/26/2018 06:25 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
The citizens of the United States are SOVREIGN!
We rule ourselves, whether or not we believe it, the country was founded thus.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76081116
United States
03/26/2018 06:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

any "agent" that comes to forcefully remove your 2nd amendment right has betrayed their oath to the constitution and is instantly a tyrant.

Feed the Tree

militia
Liberty OR Death
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76081116


More bullshit!

Is all sounds good on the internet, BUT when a darkly clad, highly armed group of state agents knock down your door at 3AM for whatever reason, and you pull a firearm to defend yourself, you're going to be murdered.

It is what it is.
 Quoting: Shingen


the only bullshit here is You pretending that patriots don't plan for THAT EXACT SCENARIO.

if you aren't willing to DIE for freedom you are already enslaved.
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:33 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
The citizens of the United States are SOVREIGN!
We rule ourselves, whether or not we believe it, the country was founded thus.
 Quoting: anonymous coward 76076258


Doesn't address my argument. And no, we are ruled by the federal, state, and local governments.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 72341210
United States
03/26/2018 06:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Well if the OP is correct then the Declaration of Independence was an illegal act.

Natural rights are not civil rights.

Natural rights need no laws as they come from God.

Civil rights are legislated by political bozozs between moments of porkbarrel spending.
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the only bullshit here is You pretending that patriots don't plan for THAT EXACT SCENARIO.

if you aren't willing to DIE for freedom you are already enslaved.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76081116


Well be that as it may; American individuals still have no right of self defense against the state.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13023739
United States
03/26/2018 06:36 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
So, your 2nd amendment has already been infringed.

 Quoting: Shingen


hesright

It's important but really has not been in effect for a while now.

You do not have the right to keep and bear arms.

bank
court house
school
airport
bus station
New Youk
Chicago
DC
etc, etc, etc,

Guess what?

A cops wants to question you in the street you MUST turn over your firearm if asked or face being arrested.

Does that sound like keeping and bearing arms to you?
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Well if the OP is correct then the Declaration of Independence was an illegal act.

Natural rights are not civil rights.

Natural rights need no laws as they come from God.

Civil rights are legislated by political bozozs between moments of porkbarrel spending.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72341210


Try that is a American court. Let me know how that works.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Also the Declaration of Independence is not considered a legal document.

A historical document? For sure.

A legally binding document? Not so much.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
O__o

User ID: 74742108
United States
03/26/2018 06:41 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
If that is true, then there is no United States, because there is no legitimate US government.

So, you are wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18475932


Okay. So you think you have a legal right to defend yourself with force of arms against the police?
 Quoting: Shingen


If you haven't done anything wrong or broken any laws, pretty much. And just because they try to change the legislature doesn't mean you suddenly lose the rights to what you believe in, the Declaration of Independence says if the citizens as a whole are unhappy with the government it can be demolished and reestablished.
O__o

User ID: 74742108
United States
03/26/2018 06:43 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Also the Declaration of Independence is not considered a legal document.

A historical document? For sure.

A legally binding document? Not so much.
 Quoting: Shingen


Basically bruh, when it comes down to it just because you say this stuff on the internet doesn't mean anyone cares. If people want to keep their guns and they like their 2nd Amendment rights and believe in the security of being able to protect themselves and potentially rise against a government the majority decides against, nothing you say about the legally binding effects of words and documents holds any weight.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13023739
United States
03/26/2018 06:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
legally martial law removes all individual rights.

so when confiscation times come legally you won't
have a leg to stand on.

it'll be cold dead hand times indeed.
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 06:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
[

If you haven't done anything wrong or broken any laws, pretty much. And just because they try to change the legislature doesn't mean you suddenly lose the rights to what you believe in, the Declaration of Independence says if the citizens as a whole are unhappy with the government it can be demolished and reestablished.
 Quoting: O__o


Again. Doesn't address my argument.

My argument is that private American individuals retain NO LEGAL RIGHT of self defense against the state.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
O__o

User ID: 74742108
United States
03/26/2018 07:01 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
[

If you haven't done anything wrong or broken any laws, pretty much. And just because they try to change the legislature doesn't mean you suddenly lose the rights to what you believe in, the Declaration of Independence says if the citizens as a whole are unhappy with the government it can be demolished and reestablished.
 Quoting: O__o


Again. Doesn't address my argument.

My argument is that private American individuals retain NO LEGAL RIGHT of self defense against the state.
 Quoting: Shingen


It sort of makes your point moot bro. Your words and legalities don't correspond to real life reality. Americans as a people believe in the Declaration of Independence, we celebrate the 4th of July, it doesn't matter what the legislature say because the Declaration of Independence gives us a belief in the ability to overturn governments we as a majority find corrupt and incompetent and reestablish new ones.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13023739
United States
03/26/2018 07:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
against the state.

 Quoting: Shingen


In America per the constitution, the "state" in reference
to an all power overseer does not exist.

Of, by and for the people.

But no one pays attention to that old archaic
document mush anymore.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 10485453
United States
03/26/2018 07:07 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the 2nd amendment is the supreme law of the land....
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 07:14 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Americans as a people believe in the Declaration of Independence, we celebrate the 4th of July, it doesn't matter what the legislature say because the Declaration of Independence gives us a belief in the ability to overturn governments we as a majority find corrupt and incompetent and reestablish new ones.
 Quoting: O__o


Unfortunately, you can't use the Declaration of Independence as a defense in an American Court of Law.

You also, as a private individual, can't use the United States Constitution as a defense in a American Court of Law.

Again. Nothing you've posted refutes, or even addresses my argument.

You might want to take a civics class before you try to engage in this conversation.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Shingen  (OP)

User ID: 74347431
United States
03/26/2018 07:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the 2nd amendment is the supreme law of the land....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10485453


If that were true, there would be no laws trying to regulate gun ownership.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76245363
United States
03/26/2018 07:19 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
[

If you haven't done anything wrong or broken any laws, pretty much. And just because they try to change the legislature doesn't mean you suddenly lose the rights to what you believe in, the Declaration of Independence says if the citizens as a whole are unhappy with the government it can be demolished and reestablished.
 Quoting: O__o


Again. Doesn't address my argument.

My argument is that private American individuals retain NO LEGAL RIGHT of self defense against the state.
 Quoting: Shingen


You have already been proven wrong, you are just too dense to understand that you have been.
O__o

User ID: 74742108
United States
03/26/2018 07:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
Unfortunately, you can't use the Declaration of Independence as a defense in an American Court of Law.

You also, as a private individual, can't use the United States Constitution as a defense in a American Court of Law.

Again. Nothing you've posted refutes, or even addresses my argument.

You might want to take a civics class before you try to engage in this conversation.
 Quoting: Shingen


>completely missing the point
>still relying on civics and courts of law and existing frameworks to argue your point

Also I hope you don't think I care or have to refute/address your points, I am simply because I like to debate.

What I'm saying, is that none of what you said matters. In real life on planet Earth, Americans as real human people can and will overturn the entire system if they feel like they are being treated unjustly.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13023739
United States
03/26/2018 07:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
the 2nd amendment is the supreme law of the land....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10485453


the supreme law is what nine people in black robes decide.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 73622526
United States
03/26/2018 07:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
OP HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THAT THE TRUTH OF YOUR STATEMENT IS THE FINAL ACTIVATION POINT THE SIGNERS INTENDED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT? THAT WHEN ALL ELSE HAD FAILED THEY HAD KEPT THE PEOPLES GUNS FOR THEM TO START OVER AGAIN OR MAKE ONE LAST STAND. THE WAR HAD BEEN FOUGHT WITH THE MOTTOËS 'NO KING BUT KING JESUS" AND "LIVE FREE OR DIE".
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 71994152
United States
03/26/2018 07:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Americans have no legal right of self defence against the state.
I keep hearing all of these arguments for and against guns.

One the one hand, people say that the 2nd amendment is out dated and that the founders could have never anticipated automatic weapons (which is ludicrous if you do the historical research).

Then you have the other side, proponents say the 2nd amendment is not about hunting, it's about defending against a tyranny of the government.

Well, the truth is:

Individual Americans have no legal right of self defense against the state. So, you're 2nd amendment has already been infringed.

If a darkly clad, heavily armed group of agents of the state descend on your domicile to extract you and whatever the fuck they want, you have NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR FAMILY, OR YOUR PROPERTY through force of arms.

If you do not comply, they will simply murder you, your entire family, your dog, and then take what they want.

Until the individual retains a RIGHT of self defense against the state, the 2nd amendment is null and void.
 Quoting: Shingen


I. Will. Explain. It. Slowly.

You. Only. Have. The. Rights. You. Are. Willing. To. Lay. Down. Your. Life. For.

Got it?

If you don't defend it, it will be taken away.

So what in the fuck do you think is going on right now?

It only takes an IQ of about 50 to connect the dots.





GLP