To Understand Paul - His Letters Don't Tell Us All of What He Originally Preached - Bible Study

Just a few things...Well, maybe more than a few.

None of the Apostles chosen by Yeshua ever called Paul an apostle. They did call him brother.

Paul was a Pharisee who murdered followers of Yeshua. He was proud of being a Pharisee as well as proud of being of the tribe of Benjamin, "the ravening wolf". Yeshua said a few things about wolves.

Paul, in many of his letters, tells the people to follow HIS gospel, not the gospel of Yeshua the Messiah. Which is on it's face very odd.

The only one in scripture to call him an apostle is Paul himself and a man whose name means "liar", Ananias. No where else in the NT is he called an apostle.

Paul calls the Torah a curse. Not the Talmud, which is what Yeshua was against, "traditions of men", but the Law of YHVH. What's up with that?

Now, in my personal walk, I have always employed the basic position that if there is a definite contradiction between what Paul says and what Yeshua says, I am siding with and following Yeshua, because Paul is NOT my Savior.

In Torah, Moshe wrote, "One Torah for All". Not a Torah for the gentiles and a Torah for Judah and the other Tribes of Israel.

Yeshua said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." In Revelation, after Yeshua was resurrected and ascended, those who receive commendation are those who keep the commandments.

John clearly tells us what sin is in 1John 3:4. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

So then, what is the truth? If we are to strive to be like Yeshua, then we do not knowingly and willfully break Torah. As Yeshua never did, or He wouldn't be the Messiah. If we decide however to follow what we perceive Paul teaches, which is in opposition to Yeshua, where Paul says "the law is done away with"- Then we are making Paul our Messiah.

Yeshua said in Matthew 5:18-19-
"For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

So it appears that those who break the Torah could still be in the Kingdom, but just barely.

It seems to me that most Christians are actually Paulians, and they aren't taught properly, so it's understandable. I was once there as well.

But if one really wants to seek the truth, the tools are more available to us now than at any other time in history. And Yeshua will lead us into the truth, but we must be willing. And we also have to be careful.

Above all, I believe that we should show each other grace and love and reason together about things, not call names and demean each other when we disagree about something.

This is a really twitchy subject and I pray that anyone reading this do so with a love for truth and seeking heart, not an argumentative or hostile spirit.

So, grace and peace unto you!

What WAS the "word of truth" in Paul's time?

The Old Testament - and what Jesus had taught the Apostles, which hadn't been written down when Paul started preaching.

That's why Baranabas took him to Jerusalem - to meet the other's and to compare notes.

Who the freak are you to tell me that "you aren't dividing"?

Paul taught THE SAME GOSPEL that the others did.

The one Jesus gave.

The one the Father gave Jesus to give to the disciples.

Thread: ONE Gospel - FROM God - THRU Jesus - Taught by ALL of the Apostles - NOT Just Paul - Bible Study

Get out of here with your seminary Paulinism bullshite.

You think the Father didn't know what grace was in Old Testament times?

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/27/2019 12:34 AM

Fifth Basis—The Mystery of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who entered upon his mission as the Redeemer from the day Melchizedek met Abram returning from the slaughter of the kings. This is the revelation of the Apostle Paul.

You're issue isn't with me ... your issue is with GODS word...

1 For this cause, I Paul am the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles. 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to youward,3 That is, that God by revelation hath showed this mystery unto me (as I wrote above in few words,4 Whereby when ye read, ye may know mine understanding in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not opened unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit,

"To him now that is of power to establish you according to my Gospel, and preaching of Jesus Christ, by the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret (lest ye should be arrogant in yourselves) that partly obstinacy is come to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

Peter tells us...
15 And suppose that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given unto him wrote to you. 16 As one that in all his Epistles speaketh of these things: [t]among the which, some things are hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable, wrest, as they do also other Scriptures unto their own destruction.

God tells us it's by Paul's gospel we are saved...
God tells us to "rightly divide the word of truth"
Jesus tells us his message is to the priesthood only
God tells us Paul is the apostle of the gentiles

This is what GODS says about Pauls gospel message..

If the Gospel be then hid, it is hid to them that are lost.4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds, that is, of the infidels, that the [f]light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the [g]image of God, should not shine unto them.

2 TOTALLY different messages to 2 TOTALLY different people

Paul...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.


James...
Ye see then how that of works a man is [z]justified, and not of faith only.

James is addressing the 12 tribes (priesthood) under the law...

Show me the verse where Jesus states that His "message" is only for the "priesthood".

You can't. IF it WAS, He wouldn't have been addressing the "masses" i.e. the 5000, the 4000 etc...

Your claim is a supposition of seminarian Paulinism.

Neither God nor Jesus wrote the Bible - ANY Bible, and for that matter, never told anyone to MAKE a Bible.

And what reason would there be that the creators of the KJV were "inspired" to make a Bible, but the creators of the Latin Vulgate were NOT "inspired"?

No reasons.

God wrote the 10 Commandments on 2 tablets for Moses.

The Bible / scripture is inspired...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus states this in John, and it explains how the Apostles were able to write the "quotes" of what Jesus actually said.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

IF the Bible was written by God Himself, or even Yeshua or the Holy Spirit, there would be differing accounts of certain things in the 4 Gospels. The writers wrote what EACH individual THOUGHT as relevant to their particular remembrance, and had guidance from the Holy Spirit for the important "quotes" like Jesus' own words or specific conversations.

The 12 tribes are the priesthood? WHAT Bible are you reading?

One TRIBE - decendants of Levi - were the ONLY priests.

Father God gave His "grace" to Abraham when He counted Abraham's faith for righteousness (Genesis 15:6).

Jesus was a Hebrew. Paul was a Hebrew. NOTHING you Pauline folks say will ever change that.

Paul taught THE SAME GOSPEL that the others did.

The SAME that Jesus had given - FROM the Father.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/27/2019 12:03 PM

So what? With what happened to Paul on the road & in Damascus, he became a Believer - therefore forgiven for past deeds.



Paul's letters were to folks that had already heard the "initial Gospel". He was basically saying to not listen to the false teachers that had arisen AFTER he gave his initial teachings to them.



Where do ANY of the other Apostles address each other as such? The true definition of the original Apostles were that they were chosen by Jesus Himself. Mathias wasn't. Paul was. Case closed.



In reality, the Talmud didn't exist at that point, at least in writing. It was the "oral Torah", which, if it had been actually been given to Moses and the 70, had been "expanded on" through the centuries. It's ironic that nowhere in the Old Testament is an "oral Torah" or additional laws give to the elders ever mentioned.

Jesus had 2 three year ministries... one to the priesthood which they rejected

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal Priesthood, an holy nation, a people set at liberty, that ye should show forth the virtues of him that hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light,

And the Priesthood shall be their inheritance, yea, I am their inheritance: therefore shall ye give them no possession in Israel, for I am their possession.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal Priesthood, an holy nation,

also as lively stones, be made a spiritual house, an holy Priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

But this man, because he endureth ever, hath a Priesthood, which cannot pass from one to another.

Wow.

I wrote a bunch of well thought out responses to your statements and it wouldn't post and is now forever lost in the ether or perhaps NSA's databanks.

I might try again... But maybe not...

I guess at the risk of coming off in an impatient or rough fashion, I will trust that you know me a bit, and will not easily take offense at shortish responses.

So, in short, where is the evidence that Paul was the one who first taught all the assemblies in Asia?

There is some evidence that he was cast out of Ephesus and despised by them for teaching against Torah. It's in Acts.

It seems terribly presumptuous to say that the Apostle's prayer wasn't answered by YHVH in choosing Mathias. The casting of lots is a well documented Israelite method of ascertaining YHVH's will.

So, stating that Yeshua chose Paul and YHVH didn't answer the 11, is sketchy at the least, brother.

Which of Paul's 3 different accounts of his salvation experience is correct?

He held one thing solid...An angel of light....Who he also said are demonic entities...We know ha satan is a deceiver.

I am not pretending to be the judge of Paul, but he sure contradicts Yeshua and all the other Taught One's and is the only one who can be cited in the NT for NOT obeying Torah.

Also, who was John, through quoting Yeshua in Revelation, implicating- in addressing the Church at Ephesus and commending them for trying those who said they were apostles but were not? Look in Acts, again. Even though it was written by Paul's convert Luke, who also never met Yeshua.

Bottom line, and in a really quick fashion, too...If you read everything in the NT EXCEPT Paul, there is nothing that would begin to intimate that believers in Yeshua should NOT follow Torah. Not a thing.

So, while I have spent most of a decade trying to reconcile the contradictions of Yeshua in Paul's writings, I only recently decided to really search it out.

I'm leaning to Paul being very much a foil for the Serpent in the Garden. Allowed by YHVH, but not what YHVH wanted for His children.

Torah is NOT a curse, but a fence, and a hedge of protection. Paul called it a curse. Deuteronomy 28 makes it pretty clear.

Abominations cannot be transmuted to acceptable behavior just because one wants to see it that way.

I can choose to not have sex with animals, my family members (outside of my husband) people of the same sex, etc. I can choose to not eat toads and frogs and pigs, etc.

There are basically five headings of Torah, The Land, The Temple, The Priesthood, How we relate with others and How we relate to YHVH. The first 3 largely cannot be done on Earth currently. The last two are what Yeshua summarized of the 10. And we can do them.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light. But there is a yoke, and there is a burden. It's simply for us to decide who we want to emulate. Yeshua, as He is our savior and redeemer, or follow another.

Paul says repeatedly in his epistles "follow my gospel". Not Yeshua's, Paul's.

Basically, I am not going to spend any more of my energy trying to make excuses for things Paul wrote.

I will defend Yeshua to my grave. He is my Savior. I KNOW Him.

How do I know Him? Because I have had some very intense religious experiences, and things have been cut to crystal clarity. And I am NOT an Apostle because I have had intense religious experiences.

Paul, whether he meant to or not, has been used to rail against the very thing that sets us apart from those who are NOT redeemed and reconciled with YHVH.

Since the same people who canonized the entire Bible are the ones who killed Peter, how can they say Peter is the Rock as Yeshua said, when they don't follow Yeshua, but follow Paul?

Or at the very least, the evident contradictions of Yeshua that Paul appears to venerate?

I'm pretty sure Paul is the Serpent in the Garden. The seducer and beguiler.

I am positive Paul is not Yeshua, and I will not follow him. Especially where he clearly contradicts Yeshua.

Not ONE SINGLE WORD that you posted came from Jesus' mouth.

On top of that...you disrespect folks by not posting where the verses come from.

"2 three year ministries"? NOT Biblical.
"ministry to the priesthood"? NOT Biblical.

There is a good explanation here:
[link to www.jesuswordsonly.com (secure)]

We know that it is true that if something as important as the alleged appointment of a former enemy as a 'new' apostle in the person of Paul, who's reputation was so poor that he must have a name change to remain incognito from his former "acts".
That Jesus would not just have reportedly appeared to Saul, but to the apostles just as well.

He was told they would reject him supposedly, and rightly he was. He did not even avail himself of the 12, yes a prevailing 12 of which the addition of Paul would be 13th.
So, to avoid that obvious strike against his claims to be chosen, he appeared and was introduced only to Peter and to James the brother of Jesus.
They rejected Paul and told him to go elsewhere with his teachings.

The Revelation of John directly refutes Paul as does Jude, another brother of Christ.

Yet, as soon as Paul like a wolf in sheep's clothing entered in, the teachings of Paul supplanted the teachings of Christ.

Lucky Jesus that you side with him !

Actually though, it appears that rather than follow him, you presume he's too weak to lead, and needs you to be in charge, wresting that so-called Bible into shape, for instance, according to your determination of what Jesus was evidently too cowardly and uninfluential and uncommunicative to keep out of the canon. [And I can just imagine how impatient with any such concept as 'canon' you are.}
And those Benjamites [Like Mary, Martha and Lazarus ?] got TOLD didn't they, along with their town Beth-any [Ananiah was original name] .
And for good measure , probably Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing and baptized Jesus, also comes in for your disapproval I'm guessing ?
You really are a thoroughgoing works-based-er aren't you ? A regular Hercules !

I see we are brothers in the body of Christ... It's amazing the blindness of people ... "Christian" was a term that came from Paul's teaching at Antioch... NOT the temple in Jerusalem... a Christian is a follower of our risen LORD through the messager of Paul ... keep preaching it my brother...!!

"The revelation of John"????

It's the revelation of Jesus Christ

1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show His servants what must soona come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John did not write revelation. God gave it to his angel whom then was sent to his servant John.

Who was his angel?

Hint; Paul signs all his letters in the same way.

You make no sense here.

What?

Paul, like all 12 of the disciples, was a jevv, to be sure, but he was the one jevv calling out the disciples, including Peter, for their hypocrisy in adhering to the old law.

Take his admonishments about food. Peter agreed that Paul was correct in asserting that no food was "unclean", and would eat with the gentiles in Paul's churches but, as soon as the other jevvish disciples showed up, he would refuse to sit with the gentiles at a meal and went back to eating kosher.

Paul lit him up.

He was also the one who argued against circumcision for non-jevvs

Does that sound like someone in compliance with the Pharisees?

Moreover, the Babylonian wasn't compiled until c. 500 A.D..

After all of the Gospels, and the training of the Apostles to take over the ministry after Jesus fulfilled his purpose and proofs, I am to believe the word of Paul that God immediately threw that over in favor of the ministry of Paul's mystery religion he learned about in Arabia.

The link I posted talked about when Paul went away for 3 years before "revealing" himself to the Apostles.
Having been told "by the Spirit" that they won't believe him.

Well, they would if that same Spirit of God had reveal Paul to them as the new way.
They knew SAUL as the smarmy provoker of crowds that led to the stoning of Stephen. After his whipping up the crowds to stone him, SAUL "helpfully" offered to hold their cloaks that they might be able to throw harder.
Thus the need for a name change and 3 years to hope to reset his reputation in their memory. Oh, you must have me confused with somebody else, my name is PAUL.

The Revelation rebukes the churches set up by Paul and his mystery religion.

Are you going to act as if a splinter is a rafter?
Of course the Revelation is from GOD. It was given to John. He was carried along and shown these things.
You know this.

Israel rejected the priesthood... gentiles had no way to obtain salvation..

Ephesians...

"Wherefore remember that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, and called uncircumcision of them, which are called circumcision in the flesh, made with hands, That ye were, I say, at that time [v]without Christ, and were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and were strangers from the covenants of promise, and had no hope, and were without God in the world. For this cause, I Paul am the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles."

Jesus went to the gentile world with the Gospel of grace, which was unknown doctrine to the world before Paul..

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to youward,3 That is, that God by revelation hath showed this mystery unto me (as I wrote above in few words,4 Whereby when ye read, ye may know mine understanding in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not opened unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit,


You have no understanding of the priesthood and their purpose...
You have no understanding of the body of Christ...
You won't differentiate the "gospel of the Kingdom" with the "gospel of grace...
You don't believe Jesus when he stated over and over, his message was to Israel...
You don't believe GOD when he tells us Paul's message is to the Gentiles...
You are a contradiction and lost... I have been there

I pray Satan loosens his grip on your understanding and GOD opens your eyes... loose the pride...

Last Edited by freedomsnotfree1 on 08/28/2019 09:20 AM

Have you actually read some of the comments in this topic?

Pauline Christianity?

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]




How about this?


[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

Jesus taught the same to Paul as He did to the other Apostles.

Jesus sent the Apostles to the entire world - Matthew 28:19

Barnabas brought Paul to Jerusalem so the others could hear what he was preaching. They DID NOT REJECT Paul. Acts 9:25-30

There's NO Biblical PROOF that Paul went to Mt Sinai.

Where - in the Bible - is "the gospel of grace"?

It's not there. It's a phrase coined by you Paulinism folks.

There's ONE Gospel. Given BY the Father to Jesus, who first taught it to the Apostles, then to Paul.

What does it require?

1. Belief in God
2. Repentance

Those SAME things are seen throughout the Old Testament.

3. Beleive in Jesus - the Christ - the Son OF God
4. Follow the Commandments

Jesus' 2 SIMPLE commandments cover the 10 Commandments that the Father gave the Israelites.

Grace is mercy is forgiveness. They are intertwined for the simple fact that they are the result of repentance and Belief.

Thread: Repentance - A Deeper Look - Definition of "Repent" & The Importance of Repentance

Paul taught the SAME things as the other Apostles.

Thread: ONE Gospel - FROM God - THRU Jesus - Taught by ALL of the Apostles - NOT Just Paul - Bible Study

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/28/2019 11:55 AM

All you are doing is babbling the same crap that's been screamed by "different gospel" folks for centuries.

Typical Paulinism arrogance on display.

There's ONE Gospel.

PERIOD.

He just copied from Philo and Philo made up bull shit from the mystery religions. When will you religioustards ever learn NO ONE HAS TO DIE FOR SINS.

Galations..
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by a servant, and one by a free woman. But he which was of the servant, was born after the flesh: and he which was of the free woman, was born by promise.
By the which things another thing is meant: for these mothers are the two Testaments, the one which is Hagar of mount Sinai, which gendereth unto bondage.
(For Hagar or Sinai is a mountain in Arabia, and it answered to Jerusalem which now is) and she is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice thou barren that bearest no children: break forth, and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children, than she which hath an husband.
Therefore, brethren, we are after the manner of Isaac, children of the promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh, persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
But what saith the Scripture? Put out the servant and her son: for the son of the servant shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.
Then brethren, we are not children of the servant, but of the free woman.

the priesthood was under the law... just like James tells us but you don't believe him

the body of Christ is free from the law and is under grace... just like Jesus tells us through Paul... but you don't believe GOD...

GOD tells us to "Rightly divide his word of truth" You will be held into account for the people you lead astray... loose your pride...

"...To Understand Paul..." OP says....


Lots of conjecture absent any witness on this thread. Looking for "proofs" and "understanding"....

Paul has plenty of Witness in his writings, but Unless You're Ezekiel 36:26-27 Born-Again, you won't See it.


Takes heart to Come Unto The Father; not "understanding" or "proof". Saul had to be knocked off his horse before he paid any attention to God's Will. He never made his surrender; God kinda took him captive... Not like HE Does That anymore.

Thing is; until God Has Given you "A New Heart Of HIS Flesh" to replace your "stony" carnal-heart; and Enabled you to KNOW and DO HIS Will and "Keep MY Judgments", there's no KNOWING Scripture, much less understanding It.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Been Born-Again? Then you'd KNOW and not need to resort to all the bullshit written in posts above this one to "prove" anything...


God didn't send Christ Jesus to Enable "salvation". Christ Was Sent With The Gospel to Reveal Father's Desire For Relationship With Us. Christ Sent To Redeem Us To Enable Our Coming Unto The Father.

All mankind is "saved" through Christ's Redemption, but what matters is Who KNOWS WHO Christ Jesus IS (Matt 16:13-20) and having thus Been Called Unto The Father; Will They Answer HIS Call?


The Whole Enchilada of Christianity is Witnessed by Jesus in Matt 22:1-14 "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a Certain King Who Made A Wedding Feast For HIS Son".

That's the last mention of The Son in the parable... The Whole Witness is about Answering Father's Call.

It concludes in verse 14 with "For many are Called, but few are Chosen!" Those "Chosen" are they who Elected-Chose to Answer Father's Call and therefore Came Unto HIM and Were Born-Again.



All that matters is your heart!
Do you, Can you Trust God With all you are and all you ever will be? Do you KNOW WHO Christ Jesus IS? Then, you Seek The Father in earnest, sincere prayer and Tell HIM! You Give HIM your life to do with as HE Chooses/Wills to be right. You live your life through and By HIS Will; and you Know Happiness and joy!


Nobody can KNOW The Scriptures without God The Holy Spirit's Witness to them. There's no Coming Unto The Father but through Love and Surrender.

Everyone who KNOWS WHO Christ Jesus IS Was Called... Only those who Answer Father's Call Chose-Elected to make their surrender and thereby have Been Born-Again.


Witness comes from your having Relationship With God; what HE Has Given you to KNOW and SEE. As St. John Witnesses in 1st Epistle 2:20 "But you Have An Unction From The Holy One and KNOW All Things!"

If Born-Again, you would KNOW.


Maranatha!!!

Where does James state that the 12 tribes are a "priesthood"?

He doesn't. And in Peter's mention of "priesthood" he doesn't say ANYTHING about the 12 tribes.

Jame's letter to the 12 tribes is to let them know that THEY TOO are eligible to receive the Father's GRACE as given THROUGH His Son Jesus - the Christ.

And Peter says "this generation" - meaning the disciples of Jesus in THAT CURRENT time.

Where in the Bible is the phrase "the gospel of grace" used?

It's not.

Neither God nor His Son are liars.

Paulinism is manmade theology. NOT from God nor Yeshua.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/28/2019 01:11 PM

Paul....Paul...Paul. Ironic that you NEVER post ANYTHING that Jesus - NOR the Father - said.

Thread: Paul's Epistles are not THUS SAITH THE LORD Bible verses

GOD DOES NOT tell us to "Rightly divide his word of truth"

That is Paul's writing.

God didn't tell ANYONE to create the Bible. The books contained within were chosen by men. Scripture is INSPIRED - NOT hand-written by God nor Jesus.

I'm banning you for 2 days from posting. I suggest that you use that time to go back to the things I've stated and TRY to refute them with scripture.

I will then remove the ban to see IF you can do that.

There is no proof that Saul/Paul was a true apostle, either.
When Jesus was gathering them, it's isn't as if Saul wasn't there in Jerusalem for the teaching and selection.
He could have and thereby perhaps saved the life of faithful Stephen by having chastened and taught Saul the truth from God through his Son.

That did not happen. He was not chosen when Jesus was alive. There is no proof he was struck blind or regained sight. Nor that he was instructed to go immediately to Arabia or anywhere else for 3 darned years instead of becoming part of the apostles already teaching and preaching CORRECTLY as taught by Jesus.