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Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory

 
newtome

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01/06/2019 07:54 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
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There you go again. No, I don't hold scientists to lower standards, no matter how much you want me to. Nothing I said implies that.

I didn't name any of those scientists specifically, but Einstein is popular, so what are you talking about?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Dude, what bothers me the most in these fanatics is the dishonesty. They go to any length to justify their fanaticism, lie and even kill if needed. This is because religion is all they have, without it their world would erude beneath them. Many times I've talk to fanatics and asked: "If somehow it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that god is not real and religion is all crap, what would you do?". Many answer along the lines of "I'll go out and kill and steal and rape for there are no consequences". For these people, which is not a minority among fanatics, is better they don't go out of this faith bubble of darkness. The only thing separating them from barbarism is the fear of consequences, for inside they are horrible people, anguished in their fear of the invisible, inexistent god. But by far, the worst is their dishonesty. Reason, logic, proof and truth is not important, these things are almost as if impossible concepts for them. Better believe in magic, almighty rageful gods than knowing the truth. So questining them is asking for outrageous answers, full of false rhetorics, logical fallacies and all kinds of dishonest argumentation. Trying to be reasonable with fanatics is the same as chewing bubble gum to solve an algebra problem. Its futile to bring reason to their lives, they are better with their lies and superstition. In summary, they are dangerous ignorants, and they are the majority. Luckily, religions have a timespan of like a couple thousand years tops, history based on history of religions that came and died.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


Interesting question, but that has no bearing on whether evolution is true or not. Evolution is not false just because you don't like the moral implications of it.

This is an appeal to consequence fallacy.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


It is not an appeal to anything, it is a real life reality. There have been countries that have used quite different legal systems and laws and the consequences are clear for all to see especially in the past 100 years.

It wasn't about fear of being judged in the afterlife, it was the clear message of how they should live their life and if that message is wrong then what message should replace it?

Many older civilizations valued ones ability to kill, rape and steal etc etc etc.
newtome

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01/06/2019 08:01 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
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So what you don't like about others is acceptable from scientists?

Interesting that you call scientists such as Eddington, Einstein and Hoyle along with many others as popular scientists.
 Quoting: newtome


There you go again. No, I don't hold scientists to lower standards, no matter how much you want me to. Nothing I said implies that.

I didn't name any of those scientists specifically, but Einstein is popular, so what are you talking about?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


The problem with typing is that much of the message is open to interpretation. The way you typed "popular" seemed to infer that they were insignificant and not real scientists so what does it matter. They were far from insignificant, they had a huge following within the scientific community and were looked at for views about such matters.

They deliberately stifled scientific advancement because they saw the Big Bang as a Church based justification for our existence.
 Quoting: newtome


No, I don't think Einstein is insignificant.

Being skeptical is not stifling scientific advancement. Scientists should be skeptical. But scientists tested the big bang theory and they discovered evidence for it, and that's why it is now commonly accepted. That's how science works.
Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

And if some scientists did deliberately stifle advancement, I'm against that. Stop trying to paint me as having a double standard, it won't accomplish anything.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


They rejected it out of hand because of the Biblical implications.

It has been known to be an invalid theory for over 40 years, interesting that you say it is commonly accepted. Why would an invalid theory be accepted?

Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

Hahahaha
It happens every day because of the political consequences and the scientific community buys into it because of who pays them. If you think otherwise then you are truly naive.

You only need to look at some of the different scientific views in the FSU and the West. Both can't be correct.
Spur-Man

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Australia
01/06/2019 08:10 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
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Dude, what bothers me the most in these fanatics is the dishonesty. They go to any length to justify their fanaticism, lie and even kill if needed. This is because religion is all they have, without it their world would erude beneath them. Many times I've talk to fanatics and asked: "If somehow it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that god is not real and religion is all crap, what would you do?". Many answer along the lines of "I'll go out and kill and steal and rape for there are no consequences". For these people, which is not a minority among fanatics, is better they don't go out of this faith bubble of darkness. The only thing separating them from barbarism is the fear of consequences, for inside they are horrible people, anguished in their fear of the invisible, inexistent god. But by far, the worst is their dishonesty. Reason, logic, proof and truth is not important, these things are almost as if impossible concepts for them. Better believe in magic, almighty rageful gods than knowing the truth. So questining them is asking for outrageous answers, full of false rhetorics, logical fallacies and all kinds of dishonest argumentation. Trying to be reasonable with fanatics is the same as chewing bubble gum to solve an algebra problem. Its futile to bring reason to their lives, they are better with their lies and superstition. In summary, they are dangerous ignorants, and they are the majority. Luckily, religions have a timespan of like a couple thousand years tops, history based on history of religions that came and died.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


Interesting question, but that has no bearing on whether evolution is true or not. Evolution is not false just because you don't like the moral implications of it.

This is an appeal to consequence fallacy.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


It is not an appeal to anything, it is a real life reality. There have been countries that have used quite different legal systems and laws and the consequences are clear for all to see especially in the past 100 years.

It wasn't about fear of being judged in the afterlife, it was the clear message of how they should live their life and if that message is wrong then what message should replace it?

Many older civilizations valued ones ability to kill, rape and steal etc etc etc.
 Quoting: newtome


Saying that your religion is true because without it society would have no morals, is an appeal to consequence fallacy.

[link to www.google.com (secure)]

Likewise, saying evolution is false, because it would lead to genocide and moral depravity is also an appeal to consequence fallacy.

Asia didn't need your religion to outlaw murder, rape and theft. But this has nothing to do with the science of origins, so why don't you stop going down these tangents?
Spur-Man

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Australia
01/06/2019 08:14 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


There you go again. No, I don't hold scientists to lower standards, no matter how much you want me to. Nothing I said implies that.

I didn't name any of those scientists specifically, but Einstein is popular, so what are you talking about?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


The problem with typing is that much of the message is open to interpretation. The way you typed "popular" seemed to infer that they were insignificant and not real scientists so what does it matter. They were far from insignificant, they had a huge following within the scientific community and were looked at for views about such matters.

They deliberately stifled scientific advancement because they saw the Big Bang as a Church based justification for our existence.
 Quoting: newtome


No, I don't think Einstein is insignificant.

Being skeptical is not stifling scientific advancement. Scientists should be skeptical. But scientists tested the big bang theory and they discovered evidence for it, and that's why it is now commonly accepted. That's how science works.
Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

And if some scientists did deliberately stifle advancement, I'm against that. Stop trying to paint me as having a double standard, it won't accomplish anything.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


They rejected it out of hand because of the Biblical implications.

It has been known to be an invalid theory for over 40 years, interesting that you say it is commonly accepted. Why would an invalid theory be accepted?

Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

Hahahaha
It happens every day because of the political consequences and the scientific community buys into it because of who pays them. If you think otherwise then you are truly naive.

You only need to look at some of the different scientific views in the FSU and the West. Both can't be correct.
 Quoting: newtome


If scientists do that, I'm against it.

The big bang is currently the most widely accepted theory regarding the origin of the universe. Explain why it's invalid.
newtome

User ID: 75470405
Australia
01/06/2019 08:20 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


Interesting question, but that has no bearing on whether evolution is true or not. Evolution is not false just because you don't like the moral implications of it.

This is an appeal to consequence fallacy.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


It is not an appeal to anything, it is a real life reality. There have been countries that have used quite different legal systems and laws and the consequences are clear for all to see especially in the past 100 years.

It wasn't about fear of being judged in the afterlife, it was the clear message of how they should live their life and if that message is wrong then what message should replace it?

Many older civilizations valued ones ability to kill, rape and steal etc etc etc.
 Quoting: newtome


Saying that your religion is true because without it society would have no morals, is an appeal to consequence fallacy.

[link to www.google.com (secure)]

Likewise, saying evolution is false, because it would lead to genocide and moral depravity is also an appeal to consequence fallacy.

Asia didn't need your religion to outlaw murder, rape and theft. But this has nothing to do with the science of origins, so why don't you stop going down these tangents?
 Quoting: Spur-Man



They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
newtome

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Australia
01/06/2019 08:21 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
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The problem with typing is that much of the message is open to interpretation. The way you typed "popular" seemed to infer that they were insignificant and not real scientists so what does it matter. They were far from insignificant, they had a huge following within the scientific community and were looked at for views about such matters.

They deliberately stifled scientific advancement because they saw the Big Bang as a Church based justification for our existence.
 Quoting: newtome


No, I don't think Einstein is insignificant.

Being skeptical is not stifling scientific advancement. Scientists should be skeptical. But scientists tested the big bang theory and they discovered evidence for it, and that's why it is now commonly accepted. That's how science works.
Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

And if some scientists did deliberately stifle advancement, I'm against that. Stop trying to paint me as having a double standard, it won't accomplish anything.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


They rejected it out of hand because of the Biblical implications.

It has been known to be an invalid theory for over 40 years, interesting that you say it is commonly accepted. Why would an invalid theory be accepted?

Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

Hahahaha
It happens every day because of the political consequences and the scientific community buys into it because of who pays them. If you think otherwise then you are truly naive.

You only need to look at some of the different scientific views in the FSU and the West. Both can't be correct.
 Quoting: newtome


If scientists do that, I'm against it.

The big bang is currently the most widely accepted theory regarding the origin of the universe. Explain why it's invalid.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


You are a smart man, it's invalidity is explained in countless websites. Try google.
Spur-Man

User ID: 75814481
Australia
01/06/2019 08:28 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


No, I don't think Einstein is insignificant.

Being skeptical is not stifling scientific advancement. Scientists should be skeptical. But scientists tested the big bang theory and they discovered evidence for it, and that's why it is now commonly accepted. That's how science works.
Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

And if some scientists did deliberately stifle advancement, I'm against that. Stop trying to paint me as having a double standard, it won't accomplish anything.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


They rejected it out of hand because of the Biblical implications.

It has been known to be an invalid theory for over 40 years, interesting that you say it is commonly accepted. Why would an invalid theory be accepted?

Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

Hahahaha
It happens every day because of the political consequences and the scientific community buys into it because of who pays them. If you think otherwise then you are truly naive.

You only need to look at some of the different scientific views in the FSU and the West. Both can't be correct.
 Quoting: newtome


If scientists do that, I'm against it.

The big bang is currently the most widely accepted theory regarding the origin of the universe. Explain why it's invalid.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


You are a smart man, it's invalidity is explained in countless websites. Try google.
 Quoting: newtome


That's not the predominant position though, it is commonly accepted. You said it wasn't.

"They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
"

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they', but it is a fallacy. I commonly hear Creationists make this argument when debating evolution. If I falsely attributed this argument to someone, then I'm sorry.

I agree about the T-rex. This thread was made by a creationist who thinks the soft tissue disproves evolution.
newtome

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01/06/2019 08:34 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


They rejected it out of hand because of the Biblical implications.

It has been known to be an invalid theory for over 40 years, interesting that you say it is commonly accepted. Why would an invalid theory be accepted?

Stifling scientific advancement would be silencing people for blasphemy or spreading misinformation.

Hahahaha
It happens every day because of the political consequences and the scientific community buys into it because of who pays them. If you think otherwise then you are truly naive.

You only need to look at some of the different scientific views in the FSU and the West. Both can't be correct.
 Quoting: newtome


If scientists do that, I'm against it.

The big bang is currently the most widely accepted theory regarding the origin of the universe. Explain why it's invalid.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


You are a smart man, it's invalidity is explained in countless websites. Try google.
 Quoting: newtome


That's not the predominant position though, it is commonly accepted. You said it wasn't.

"They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
"

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they', but it is a fallacy. I commonly hear Creationists make this argument when debating evolution. If I falsely attributed this argument to someone, then I'm sorry.

I agree about the T-rex. This thread was made by a creationist who thinks the soft tissue disproves evolution.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



No I didn't
I asked why it is commonly accepted, as you claimed, when it is well known to be invalid. You seem unable to answer that interesting question.
Spur-Man

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Australia
01/06/2019 08:43 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


If scientists do that, I'm against it.

The big bang is currently the most widely accepted theory regarding the origin of the universe. Explain why it's invalid.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


You are a smart man, it's invalidity is explained in countless websites. Try google.
 Quoting: newtome


That's not the predominant position though, it is commonly accepted. You said it wasn't.

"They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
"

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they', but it is a fallacy. I commonly hear Creationists make this argument when debating evolution. If I falsely attributed this argument to someone, then I'm sorry.

I agree about the T-rex. This thread was made by a creationist who thinks the soft tissue disproves evolution.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



No I didn't
I asked why it is commonly accepted, as you claimed, when it is well known to be invalid. You seem unable to answer that interesting question.
 Quoting: newtome


My mistake.

Clearly, most experts in the field don't consider it invalid. I don't claim to be an expert on the big bang, and I'm not aware that it is invalid. Why do you think it is?

Last Edited by Spur-Man on 01/06/2019 08:44 AM
MaybeTrollingUAgain

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01/06/2019 10:02 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...



So what you don't like about others is acceptable from scientists?

Interesting that you call scientists such as Eddington, Einstein and Hoyle along with many others as popular scientists.
 Quoting: newtome


There you go again. No, I don't hold scientists to lower standards, no matter how much you want me to. Nothing I said implies that.

I didn't name any of those scientists specifically, but Einstein is popular, so what are you talking about?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Dude, what bothers me the most in these fanatics is the dishonesty. They go to any length to justify their fanaticism, lie and even kill if needed. This is because religion is all they have, without it their world would erude beneath them. Many times I've talk to fanatics and asked: "If somehow it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that god is not real and religion is all crap, what would you do?". Many answer along the lines of "I'll go out and kill and steal and rape for there are no consequences". For these people, which is not a minority among fanatics, is better they don't go out of this faith bubble of darkness. The only thing separating them from barbarism is the fear of consequences, for inside they are horrible people, anguished in their fear of the invisible, inexistent god. But by far, the worst is their dishonesty. Reason, logic, proof and truth is not important, these things are almost as if impossible concepts for them. Better believe in magic, almighty rageful gods than knowing the truth. So questining them is asking for outrageous answers, full of false rhetorics, logical fallacies and all kinds of dishonest argumentation. Trying to be reasonable with fanatics is the same as chewing bubble gum to solve an algebra problem. Its futile to bring reason to their lives, they are better with their lies and superstition. In summary, they are dangerous ignorants, and they are the majority. Luckily, religions have a timespan of like a couple thousand years tops, history based on history of religions that came and died.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


See? More logical fallacies! This one called cherry picking. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets do it: Take any pedophile case. Your dear god will do squat to help or save an innocent. It will be like: "You go ahead and do it, I'll punish you later". Anyone with a drop of moral, will do something to stop it from happening. This is the difference between your almighty moral thug and people with moral. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets talk more: How many slaves do you have? The bible is very clear on the rules on owning people as property. And don't you dare "old testament" shit on me. It is either the whole thing or nothing, you can't be cherry pick what is convenient to you and blame the rest on "this is old, out of context" or some puny excuse like that. Fanatics like you are the worst type of liars, you lie to yourself and try to impose your lie on anybody else.
MaybeTrollingUAgain
Emerald_Glow 2.0

User ID: 76456970
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01/06/2019 10:24 AM

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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
The discovery of tyrannosaurus soft tissue is enough to cost this scientist her job. The implications are that the infamous dinosaur can be no older than several thousand years, twelve thousand max. This significant discovery should be enough to at least cause a revision of natural history. interview of scientist who found the soft tissue begins at 1:25 by 60 Minutes.


At 25 minutes they speak pertaining to the blood vessels found in these "fossils".







spock
 Quoting: musashi777


Marked for later
Emerald_Glow 2.0
newtome

User ID: 75470405
Australia
01/06/2019 07:06 PM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


There you go again. No, I don't hold scientists to lower standards, no matter how much you want me to. Nothing I said implies that.

I didn't name any of those scientists specifically, but Einstein is popular, so what are you talking about?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Dude, what bothers me the most in these fanatics is the dishonesty. They go to any length to justify their fanaticism, lie and even kill if needed. This is because religion is all they have, without it their world would erude beneath them. Many times I've talk to fanatics and asked: "If somehow it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that god is not real and religion is all crap, what would you do?". Many answer along the lines of "I'll go out and kill and steal and rape for there are no consequences". For these people, which is not a minority among fanatics, is better they don't go out of this faith bubble of darkness. The only thing separating them from barbarism is the fear of consequences, for inside they are horrible people, anguished in their fear of the invisible, inexistent god. But by far, the worst is their dishonesty. Reason, logic, proof and truth is not important, these things are almost as if impossible concepts for them. Better believe in magic, almighty rageful gods than knowing the truth. So questining them is asking for outrageous answers, full of false rhetorics, logical fallacies and all kinds of dishonest argumentation. Trying to be reasonable with fanatics is the same as chewing bubble gum to solve an algebra problem. Its futile to bring reason to their lives, they are better with their lies and superstition. In summary, they are dangerous ignorants, and they are the majority. Luckily, religions have a timespan of like a couple thousand years tops, history based on history of religions that came and died.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


See? More logical fallacies! This one called cherry picking. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets do it: Take any pedophile case. Your dear god will do squat to help or save an innocent. It will be like: "You go ahead and do it, I'll punish you later". Anyone with a drop of moral, will do something to stop it from happening. This is the difference between your almighty moral thug and people with moral. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets talk more: How many slaves do you have? The bible is very clear on the rules on owning people as property. And don't you dare "old testament" shit on me. It is either the whole thing or nothing, you can't be cherry pick what is convenient to you and blame the rest on "this is old, out of context" or some puny excuse like that. Fanatics like you are the worst type of liars, you lie to yourself and try to impose your lie on anybody else.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


Why do you keep referring to my God? I am not religious, those you were talking about are and I was explaining to you what they were saying because you are clearly too thick to understand.

No not cherry picking, a statement of fact. Nor a logical fallacy. What moral code will you use if you choose not to use the Judeo-Christian ones? Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?

And no, I don't own any slaves because the society I live in doesn't allow it but there are millions of people around the world who do own slaves and are slaves. Disappointingly for you they don't seem to be Western countries that once had Christianity as a foundation.

[link to blogs-images.forbes.com (secure)]

[link to www.globalslaveryindex.org (secure)]

[link to www.washingtonpost.com (secure)]


I guess those Societies without the underlying Judeo-Christian foundation are so much better. Maybe if we disprove the Bible and God we could all own slaves, wouldn't that be a better world for you?
newtome

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01/06/2019 07:18 PM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
...


You are a smart man, it's invalidity is explained in countless websites. Try google.
 Quoting: newtome


That's not the predominant position though, it is commonly accepted. You said it wasn't.

"They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
"

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they', but it is a fallacy. I commonly hear Creationists make this argument when debating evolution. If I falsely attributed this argument to someone, then I'm sorry.

I agree about the T-rex. This thread was made by a creationist who thinks the soft tissue disproves evolution.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



No I didn't
I asked why it is commonly accepted, as you claimed, when it is well known to be invalid. You seem unable to answer that interesting question.


 Quoting: newtome


My mistake.

Clearly, most experts in the field don't consider it invalid. I don't claim to be an expert on the big bang, and I'm not aware that it is invalid. Why do you think it is?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Clearly you are not much of a scientist and lack the ability to use google,

Here is a laymans explanation.
[link to www.forbes.com (secure)]

Three specific things you would expect from the Big Bang didn't happen. In particular:

The Universe doesn't have different temperatures in different directions, even though an area billions of light-years away in one direction never had time (since the Big Bang) to interact with or exchange information with an area billions of light-years in the opposite direction.
The Universe doesn't have a measurable spatial curvature that's different from zero, even though a Universe that's perfectly spatially flat requires a perfect balance between the initial expansion and the matter-and-radiation density.
The Universe doesn't have any leftover ultra-high-energy relics from the earliest times, even though the temperatures that would create these relics should have existed if the Universe were arbitrarily hot.
Spur-Man

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That's not the predominant position though, it is commonly accepted. You said it wasn't.

"They were not saying their religion must be true because of what would happen without it. Again you are being disingenuous.

I don;t think anyone has said that and if you believe that you must be really struggling to prove your point.

What does finding a Tyrannosaurus have to do with Evolution and origins of life? At best all it means is someone got their timelines messed up and they have not been extinct as long as we think.
"

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they', but it is a fallacy. I commonly hear Creationists make this argument when debating evolution. If I falsely attributed this argument to someone, then I'm sorry.

I agree about the T-rex. This thread was made by a creationist who thinks the soft tissue disproves evolution.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



No I didn't
I asked why it is commonly accepted, as you claimed, when it is well known to be invalid. You seem unable to answer that interesting question.


 Quoting: newtome


My mistake.

Clearly, most experts in the field don't consider it invalid. I don't claim to be an expert on the big bang, and I'm not aware that it is invalid. Why do you think it is?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Clearly you are not much of a scientist and lack the ability to use google,

Here is a laymans explanation.
[link to www.forbes.com (secure)]

Three specific things you would expect from the Big Bang didn't happen. In particular:

The Universe doesn't have different temperatures in different directions, even though an area billions of light-years away in one direction never had time (since the Big Bang) to interact with or exchange information with an area billions of light-years in the opposite direction.
The Universe doesn't have a measurable spatial curvature that's different from zero, even though a Universe that's perfectly spatially flat requires a perfect balance between the initial expansion and the matter-and-radiation density.
The Universe doesn't have any leftover ultra-high-energy relics from the earliest times, even though the temperatures that would create these relics should have existed if the Universe were arbitrarily hot.

 Quoting: newtome


Google can't tell me why YOU think the theory is invalid. Have you tried googling what big bang cosmologists think about these three points?

"Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?"

What a moronic thing to say. First, science and nature don't 'believe' anything. Second, you don't understand why rape and murder is bad, unless there's a man in the sky who is going to punish you? Are you a psychopath? Keep believing what you do, since it's apparently the only thing stopping you from raping and killing indiscriminately.

Some humans actually have empathy. Oh, and the God of the Bible condones slavery.

Last Edited by Spur-Man on 01/06/2019 08:35 PM
newtome

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No I didn't
I asked why it is commonly accepted, as you claimed, when it is well known to be invalid. You seem unable to answer that interesting question.


 Quoting: newtome


My mistake.

Clearly, most experts in the field don't consider it invalid. I don't claim to be an expert on the big bang, and I'm not aware that it is invalid. Why do you think it is?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Clearly you are not much of a scientist and lack the ability to use google,

Here is a laymans explanation.
[link to www.forbes.com (secure)]

Three specific things you would expect from the Big Bang didn't happen. In particular:

The Universe doesn't have different temperatures in different directions, even though an area billions of light-years away in one direction never had time (since the Big Bang) to interact with or exchange information with an area billions of light-years in the opposite direction.
The Universe doesn't have a measurable spatial curvature that's different from zero, even though a Universe that's perfectly spatially flat requires a perfect balance between the initial expansion and the matter-and-radiation density.
The Universe doesn't have any leftover ultra-high-energy relics from the earliest times, even though the temperatures that would create these relics should have existed if the Universe were arbitrarily hot.

 Quoting: newtome


Google can't tell me why YOU think the theory is invalid. Have you tried googling what big bang cosmologists think about these three points?

"Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?"

What a moronic thing to say. First, science and nature don't 'believe' anything. Second, you don't understand why rape and murder is bad, unless there's a man in the sky who is going to punish you? Are you a psychopath? Keep believing what you do, since it's apparently the only thing stopping you from raping and killing indiscriminately.

Some humans actually have empathy. Oh, and the God of the Bible condones slavery.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Now you are sounding like those believers and Creationists you complain about. Cosmologists know that the Big Bang theory doesn't explain or account for these anomalies among others including its inconsistency with basic laws of physics. If you want to claim that believing in something that is clearly wrong is acceptable then you are not a true believer in science or the scientific method.

And now you want to be pedantic about science vs scientists? That science can't believe, well good for you trying to deflect from the basic point.

I made no such point about a man in the sky and supposed punishment, that is what you think. My point was what values do you want society to follow if you and others consider those outlined in the Bible and more accurately the commandments as only existing because of a mythical God. Why do you think society should abide by them when the rest of nature doesn't? In fact many societies today don't abide by them.

And your point that the God of the Bible condones slavery means what? What God do they worship in India? Do those Gods condone slavery? If not why is slavery so rife in India? You can keep attacking the Bible to a man who is not religious but how about explaining why those countries built on the foundations of Judeo-Christianity have the lowest rates of slavery in the world?
MaybeTrollingUAgain

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Dude, what bothers me the most in these fanatics is the dishonesty. They go to any length to justify their fanaticism, lie and even kill if needed. This is because religion is all they have, without it their world would erude beneath them. Many times I've talk to fanatics and asked: "If somehow it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that god is not real and religion is all crap, what would you do?". Many answer along the lines of "I'll go out and kill and steal and rape for there are no consequences". For these people, which is not a minority among fanatics, is better they don't go out of this faith bubble of darkness. The only thing separating them from barbarism is the fear of consequences, for inside they are horrible people, anguished in their fear of the invisible, inexistent god. But by far, the worst is their dishonesty. Reason, logic, proof and truth is not important, these things are almost as if impossible concepts for them. Better believe in magic, almighty rageful gods than knowing the truth. So questining them is asking for outrageous answers, full of false rhetorics, logical fallacies and all kinds of dishonest argumentation. Trying to be reasonable with fanatics is the same as chewing bubble gum to solve an algebra problem. Its futile to bring reason to their lives, they are better with their lies and superstition. In summary, they are dangerous ignorants, and they are the majority. Luckily, religions have a timespan of like a couple thousand years tops, history based on history of religions that came and died.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


See? More logical fallacies! This one called cherry picking. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets do it: Take any pedophile case. Your dear god will do squat to help or save an innocent. It will be like: "You go ahead and do it, I'll punish you later". Anyone with a drop of moral, will do something to stop it from happening. This is the difference between your almighty moral thug and people with moral. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets talk more: How many slaves do you have? The bible is very clear on the rules on owning people as property. And don't you dare "old testament" shit on me. It is either the whole thing or nothing, you can't be cherry pick what is convenient to you and blame the rest on "this is old, out of context" or some puny excuse like that. Fanatics like you are the worst type of liars, you lie to yourself and try to impose your lie on anybody else.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


Why do you keep referring to my God? I am not religious, those you were talking about are and I was explaining to you what they were saying because you are clearly too thick to understand.

No not cherry picking, a statement of fact. Nor a logical fallacy. What moral code will you use if you choose not to use the Judeo-Christian ones? Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?

And no, I don't own any slaves because the society I live in doesn't allow it but there are millions of people around the world who do own slaves and are slaves. Disappointingly for you they don't seem to be Western countries that once had Christianity as a foundation.

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[link to www.globalslaveryindex.org (secure)]

[link to www.washingtonpost.com (secure)]


I guess those Societies without the underlying Judeo-Christian foundation are so much better. Maybe if we disprove the Bible and God we could all own slaves, wouldn't that be a better world for you?
 Quoting: newtome


First, stop lying. You ARE a religious fanatic.

Second, one doesn't need a bible to tell right from wrong.

Third, if the bible is the only thing stoping you from owning people as property, better stick with your religious crap. And THAT, my friend, is what makes you an AWFUL person. AWFUL.

PS: Stop quoting science, its more than clear that you know squat about it, so quoting it just make you sound more and more like a moran.
MaybeTrollingUAgain
newtome

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01/06/2019 09:31 PM
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They were making a very clear point to you and clearly you are so obsessed that you were blind to their point.

Judeo-Christian values and morals are the basis of law and morals throughout western societies.

Their point was that if you have no God then the basic foundations of Western civilisation as we know it is built on a false premise. The Bible says thou shalt not kill etc etc. If the Bible has no standing then why should such things be seen as bad? What values will ultimately replace it?
 Quoting: newtome


See? More logical fallacies! This one called cherry picking. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets do it: Take any pedophile case. Your dear god will do squat to help or save an innocent. It will be like: "You go ahead and do it, I'll punish you later". Anyone with a drop of moral, will do something to stop it from happening. This is the difference between your almighty moral thug and people with moral. Wanna talk moral? Great, lets talk more: How many slaves do you have? The bible is very clear on the rules on owning people as property. And don't you dare "old testament" shit on me. It is either the whole thing or nothing, you can't be cherry pick what is convenient to you and blame the rest on "this is old, out of context" or some puny excuse like that. Fanatics like you are the worst type of liars, you lie to yourself and try to impose your lie on anybody else.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


Why do you keep referring to my God? I am not religious, those you were talking about are and I was explaining to you what they were saying because you are clearly too thick to understand.

No not cherry picking, a statement of fact. Nor a logical fallacy. What moral code will you use if you choose not to use the Judeo-Christian ones? Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?

And no, I don't own any slaves because the society I live in doesn't allow it but there are millions of people around the world who do own slaves and are slaves. Disappointingly for you they don't seem to be Western countries that once had Christianity as a foundation.

[link to blogs-images.forbes.com (secure)]

[link to www.globalslaveryindex.org (secure)]

[link to www.washingtonpost.com (secure)]


I guess those Societies without the underlying Judeo-Christian foundation are so much better. Maybe if we disprove the Bible and God we could all own slaves, wouldn't that be a better world for you?
 Quoting: newtome


First, stop lying. You ARE a religious fanatic.

Second, one doesn't need a bible to tell right from wrong.

Third, if the bible is the only thing stoping you from owning people as property, better stick with your religious crap. And THAT, my friend, is what makes you an AWFUL person. AWFUL.

PS: Stop quoting science, its more than clear that you know squat about it, so quoting it just make you sound more and more like a moran.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingUAgain


Nope not a religious anything. Sorry if that causes you problems in how to deal with my points when you can't just discount me as a religious nutter. Must be causing you untold grief.

No you don't need a Bible to tell right from wrong. India doesn't follow the Bible yet slavery is rife. Why is that? The Congo doesn't follow the Bible yet they have war, murders, rapes and anarchy, why is that? Not once have you tried to answer the question because it is an inconvenient truth that doesn't follow your narrative.

The Bible isn't stopping me from doing anything, the laws of the society I live in are and many people who don't like those laws often ignore them or advocate for change such as gay marriage etc etc etc.

The only things that you claim is AWFUL is that you want to keep the nice bits of the Bible to run your societies but throw out those bits you don't like. How about throwing it all out and starting from scratch? What is wrong with using nature as a fundamental model for human civilisation or are humans better than nature?

Must be upsetting that you can't respond to my science points with science and need to resort to personal insults instead, If science is so heavily on your side then show me instead of insulting me.
newtome

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The silence is deafening......................................
Spur-Man

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My mistake.

Clearly, most experts in the field don't consider it invalid. I don't claim to be an expert on the big bang, and I'm not aware that it is invalid. Why do you think it is?
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Clearly you are not much of a scientist and lack the ability to use google,

Here is a laymans explanation.
[link to www.forbes.com (secure)]

Three specific things you would expect from the Big Bang didn't happen. In particular:

The Universe doesn't have different temperatures in different directions, even though an area billions of light-years away in one direction never had time (since the Big Bang) to interact with or exchange information with an area billions of light-years in the opposite direction.
The Universe doesn't have a measurable spatial curvature that's different from zero, even though a Universe that's perfectly spatially flat requires a perfect balance between the initial expansion and the matter-and-radiation density.
The Universe doesn't have any leftover ultra-high-energy relics from the earliest times, even though the temperatures that would create these relics should have existed if the Universe were arbitrarily hot.

 Quoting: newtome


Google can't tell me why YOU think the theory is invalid. Have you tried googling what big bang cosmologists think about these three points?

"Why do you think murder and rape is so bad? Surely science and nature believes in the survival of the fittest? Why shouldn't we just live and behave as the rest of your wonderful nature?"

What a moronic thing to say. First, science and nature don't 'believe' anything. Second, you don't understand why rape and murder is bad, unless there's a man in the sky who is going to punish you? Are you a psychopath? Keep believing what you do, since it's apparently the only thing stopping you from raping and killing indiscriminately.

Some humans actually have empathy. Oh, and the God of the Bible condones slavery.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


Now you are sounding like those believers and Creationists you complain about. Cosmologists know that the Big Bang theory doesn't explain or account for these anomalies among others including its inconsistency with basic laws of physics. If you want to claim that believing in something that is clearly wrong is acceptable then you are not a true believer in science or the scientific method.
 Quoting: newtome


It's not clearly wrong just because it can't account for these things yet. If it indeed can't.

And now you want to be pedantic about science vs scientists? That science can't believe, well good for you trying to deflect from the basic point.
 Quoting: newtome


Your 'basic point' makes no sense. It's stupid on multiple levels. 'Science', scientists and nature don't believe that everyone should rape and murder. Plenty of animals don't rape or murder at all. You don't know what survival of the fittest means. Social animals cooperate all the time.

I made no such point about a man in the sky and supposed punishment, that is what you think. My point was what values do you want society to follow if you and others consider those outlined in the Bible and more accurately the commandments as only existing because of a mythical God. Why do you think society should abide by them when the rest of nature doesn't? In fact many societies today don't abide by them.
 Quoting: newtome


The 10 commandments are easy to improve. Most of them were stolen from earlier cultures, the only good ones are don't kill, and don't steal. Most are all about worshiping Yahweh (a genocidal war god that demands blood sacrifice). Get rid of those, now add 'no slavery' and 'no rape.' There, I just improved the 10 commandments.

Animals do have basic forms of morality and altruism. They abide by them because they provide a survival advantage and make life better for the whole.

And your point that the God of the Bible condones slavery means what? What God do they worship in India? Do those Gods condone slavery? If not why is slavery so rife in India? You can keep attacking the Bible to a man who is not religious but how about explaining why those countries built on the foundations of Judeo-Christianity have the lowest rates of slavery in the world?
 Quoting: newtome


Well, it's not the bible, because it condones slavery.

Once again, you're wrong on multiple levels. Australia, and America were not founded on Judeo-Christianity. Both have a separation of church and state. Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Franklin and Jefferson in particular were against Christianity. It was a secular government that produced the emancipation proclamation.

Statistics actually show that countries like Sweden with the highest percentage of atheists have the lowest amounts of violent crime.
newtome

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 Quoting: Spur-


Now you are sounding like those believers and Creationists you complain about. Cosmologists know that the Big Bang theory doesn't explain or account for these anomalies among others including its inconsistency with basic laws of physics. If you want to claim that believing in something that is clearly wrong is acceptable then you are not a true believer in science or the scientific method.
 Quoting: Spur-Man


It's not clearly wrong just because it can't account for these things yet. If it indeed can't.

And now you want to be pedantic about science vs scientists? That science can't believe, well good for you trying to deflect from the basic point.
 Quoting: newtome


Your 'basic point' makes no sense. It's stupid on multiple levels. 'Science', scientists and nature don't believe that everyone should rape and murder. Plenty of animals don't rape or murder at all. You don't know what survival of the fittest means. Social animals cooperate all the time.

I made no such point about a man in the sky and supposed punishment, that is what you think. My point was what values do you want society to follow if you and others consider those outlined in the Bible and more accurately the commandments as only existing because of a mythical God. Why do you think society should abide by them when the rest of nature doesn't? In fact many societies today don't abide by them.
 Quoting: newtome


The 10 commandments are easy to improve. Most of them were stolen from earlier cultures, the only good ones are don't kill, and don't steal. Most are all about worshiping Yahweh (a genocidal war god that demands blood sacrifice). Get rid of those, now add 'no slavery' and 'no rape.' There, I just improved the 10 commandments.

Animals do have basic forms of morality and altruism. They abide by them because they provide a survival advantage and make life better for the whole.

And your point that the God of the Bible condones slavery means what? What God do they worship in India? Do those Gods condone slavery? If not why is slavery so rife in India? You can keep attacking the Bible to a man who is not religious but how about explaining why those countries built on the foundations of Judeo-Christianity have the lowest rates of slavery in the world?
 Quoting: newtome


Well, it's not the bible, because it condones slavery.

Once again, you're wrong on multiple levels. Australia, and America were not founded on Judeo-Christianity. Both have a separation of church and state. Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Franklin and Jefferson in particular were against Christianity. It was a secular government that produced the emancipation proclamation.

Statistics actually show that countries like Sweden with the highest percentage of atheists have the lowest amounts of violent crime.




Only you can believe that something which can't account for things isn't necessarily wrong. So much for the scientific method.




I assume that if plenty of animals don't rape and kill then plenty do. It is the cycle of life, most animals kill to survive and even kill and eat their own. Not surprisingly even humans did.





Still you talk about slavery yet it is literally non-existent in Western Judea-Christian culture while thriving in others. How about you explain that before continuing to use it to denigrate the Bible and by extension it's followers.

Claiming the America and Australia were not founded on Judea-Christian values is just ignorant. I never said they were Christian nations, I said that Judea-Christian values underpinned them. That is not changed by freedom of religion when almost all of them were from, or raised in, one form of Christianity or another.

Ben Franklin was a Freemason and by default believed in one God, a Creator. In Ben's own words "As for Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the system of Morals and Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw...

Given that many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons we had the freedom of religion because Freemasons will accept anyone of any Faith.

Jefferson was a Christian but had issues with various parts and aspects of the Bible and Christian Faith. He wrote his own Bible to deal with these issues. He was also a firm believer in the values espoused by Jesus. In the true sense he was probably a Deist but it is impossible to deny his belief in the Christian values.




You do know that the Church of Sweden was a State Church until 2000? Even today 40% of teenagers who are from families that are not members of the Church of Sweden are still Baptized and Confirmed.

In 1972 95% of all Swedes were Church members, in 2017 it was still 60%.

To me that would suggest that the Church values still play a major role in Swedish society.




Do you ever research any of your claimed facts before you make them?
Spur-Man

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Only you can believe that something which can't account for things isn't necessarily wrong. So much for the scientific method.
 Quoting: newtome


Actually, most scientists believe that. Nothing about that goes against the scientific method. Maybe you just don't understand it? Probably, considering you say stupid shit like 'science believes we should all rape and murder.'

I assume that if plenty of animals don't rape and kill then plenty do. It is the cycle of life, most animals kill to survive and even kill and eat their own. Not surprisingly even humans did.
 Quoting: newtome


There are more herbivores than carnivores. Humans still do kill and eat each other. But there's less murder in Sweden and japan than america. Countries with higher amounts of atheism. It's funny you mention the congo, because they are highly religious, with a christian majority.

Still you talk about slavery yet it is literally non-existent in Western Judea-Christian culture while thriving in others. How about you explain that before continuing to use it to denigrate the Bible and by extension it's followers.
 Quoting: newtome


I already did, but apparently you didn't understand it. a secular government, that values democracy and the rule of law produced the emancipation proclamation. The Bible condones slavery, so it's not the reason. The Bible was used to justify slavery in America. Abraham Lincoln may have very well been an atheist. Darwin was also outspoken against slavery.

Claiming the America and Australia were not founded on Judea-Christian values is just ignorant. I never said they were Christian nations, I said that Judea-Christian values underpinned them. That is not changed by freedom of religion when almost all of them were from, or raised in, one form of Christianity or another.
 Quoting: newtome


They weren't. The very first commandment is 'thou shalt have no gods before me' this is directly violated by freedom of religion.

Ben Franklin was a Freemason and by default believed in one God, a Creator. In Ben's own words "As for Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the system of Morals and Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw...

Given that many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons we had the freedom of religion because Freemasons will accept anyone of any Faith.

Jefferson was a Christian but had issues with various parts and aspects of the Bible and Christian Faith. He wrote his own Bible to deal with these issues. He was also a firm believer in the values espoused by Jesus. In the true sense he was probably a Deist but it is impossible to deny his belief in the Christian values.
 Quoting: newtome


Deists aren't Christians. Deists believe that god never interacted with the world after creating it, which contradicts pretty much the entire Bible, including the divinity of Jesus.

You do know that the Church of Sweden was a State Church until 2000? Even today 40% of teenagers who are from families that are not members of the Church of Sweden are still Baptized and Confirmed.

In 1972 95% of all Swedes were Church members, in 2017 it was still 60%.

To me that would suggest that the Church values still play a major role in Swedish society.
 Quoting: newtome


Except for the church value of slavery. Still one of the most atheistic countries.

Do you ever research any of your claimed facts before you make them?
 Quoting: newtome


Yes. Most of them. You should try it.
newtome

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01/07/2019 07:27 AM
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Only you can believe that something which can't account for things isn't necessarily wrong. So much for the scientific method.
 Quoting: newtome


Actually, most scientists believe that. Nothing about that goes against the scientific method. Maybe you just don't understand it? Probably, considering you say stupid shit like 'science believes we should all rape and murder.'

I assume that if plenty of animals don't rape and kill then plenty do. It is the cycle of life, most animals kill to survive and even kill and eat their own. Not surprisingly even humans did.
 Quoting: newtome


There are more herbivores than carnivores. Humans still do kill and eat each other. But there's less murder in Sweden and japan than america. Countries with higher amounts of atheism. It's funny you mention the congo, because they are highly religious, with a christian majority.

Still you talk about slavery yet it is literally non-existent in Western Judea-Christian culture while thriving in others. How about you explain that before continuing to use it to denigrate the Bible and by extension it's followers.
 Quoting: newtome


I already did, but apparently you didn't understand it. a secular government, that values democracy and the rule of law produced the emancipation proclamation. The Bible condones slavery, so it's not the reason. The Bible was used to justify slavery in America. Abraham Lincoln may have very well been an atheist. Darwin was also outspoken against slavery.

Claiming the America and Australia were not founded on Judea-Christian values is just ignorant. I never said they were Christian nations, I said that Judea-Christian values underpinned them. That is not changed by freedom of religion when almost all of them were from, or raised in, one form of Christianity or another.
 Quoting: newtome


They weren't. The very first commandment is 'thou shalt have no gods before me' this is directly violated by freedom of religion.

Ben Franklin was a Freemason and by default believed in one God, a Creator. In Ben's own words "As for Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the system of Morals and Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw...

Given that many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons we had the freedom of religion because Freemasons will accept anyone of any Faith.

Jefferson was a Christian but had issues with various parts and aspects of the Bible and Christian Faith. He wrote his own Bible to deal with these issues. He was also a firm believer in the values espoused by Jesus. In the true sense he was probably a Deist but it is impossible to deny his belief in the Christian values.
 Quoting: newtome


Deists aren't Christians. Deists believe that god never interacted with the world after creating it, which contradicts pretty much the entire Bible, including the divinity of Jesus.

You do know that the Church of Sweden was a State Church until 2000? Even today 40% of teenagers who are from families that are not members of the Church of Sweden are still Baptized and Confirmed.

In 1972 95% of all Swedes were Church members, in 2017 it was still 60%.

To me that would suggest that the Church values still play a major role in Swedish society.
 Quoting: newtome


Except for the church value of slavery. Still one of the most atheistic countries.

Do you ever research any of your claimed facts before you make them?
 Quoting: newtome


Yes. Most of them. You should try it.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



You truly are ignorant and cherry picking aspects of society that bear little relationship to the points you are trying to make.

Japan and Sweden are extremely homogeneous populations with a fundamental religious underpinning of their society and societal values and practices. have you ever looked into the two countries? You can claim atheism but the populations of both countries are actively following their respective religious values and practices.


Christian values come from the teaching of Christ, Jesus, not believing the Bible or divinity. Just look at the beliefs of Franklin and Jefferson.


America was largely founded by Freemasons, freedom of religion made sense for them but their values were Christian.


Amusing how you claim Atheists are still getting their children Baptised and Confirmed? Why would that be? You seriously don't understand how Christian values become part of a society even if they claim to lose their belief in God.



If all you are going to do is make your own points while not addressing any of mine then this will become a worthless exchange very quickly.
Spur-Man

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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
Only you can believe that something which can't account for things isn't necessarily wrong. So much for the scientific method.
 Quoting: newtome


Actually, most scientists believe that. Nothing about that goes against the scientific method. Maybe you just don't understand it? Probably, considering you say stupid shit like 'science believes we should all rape and murder.'

I assume that if plenty of animals don't rape and kill then plenty do. It is the cycle of life, most animals kill to survive and even kill and eat their own. Not surprisingly even humans did.
 Quoting: newtome


There are more herbivores than carnivores. Humans still do kill and eat each other. But there's less murder in Sweden and japan than america. Countries with higher amounts of atheism. It's funny you mention the congo, because they are highly religious, with a christian majority.

Still you talk about slavery yet it is literally non-existent in Western Judea-Christian culture while thriving in others. How about you explain that before continuing to use it to denigrate the Bible and by extension it's followers.
 Quoting: newtome


I already did, but apparently you didn't understand it. a secular government, that values democracy and the rule of law produced the emancipation proclamation. The Bible condones slavery, so it's not the reason. The Bible was used to justify slavery in America. Abraham Lincoln may have very well been an atheist. Darwin was also outspoken against slavery.

Claiming the America and Australia were not founded on Judea-Christian values is just ignorant. I never said they were Christian nations, I said that Judea-Christian values underpinned them. That is not changed by freedom of religion when almost all of them were from, or raised in, one form of Christianity or another.
 Quoting: newtome


They weren't. The very first commandment is 'thou shalt have no gods before me' this is directly violated by freedom of religion.

Ben Franklin was a Freemason and by default believed in one God, a Creator. In Ben's own words "As for Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the system of Morals and Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw...

Given that many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons we had the freedom of religion because Freemasons will accept anyone of any Faith.

Jefferson was a Christian but had issues with various parts and aspects of the Bible and Christian Faith. He wrote his own Bible to deal with these issues. He was also a firm believer in the values espoused by Jesus. In the true sense he was probably a Deist but it is impossible to deny his belief in the Christian values.
 Quoting: newtome


Deists aren't Christians. Deists believe that god never interacted with the world after creating it, which contradicts pretty much the entire Bible, including the divinity of Jesus.

You do know that the Church of Sweden was a State Church until 2000? Even today 40% of teenagers who are from families that are not members of the Church of Sweden are still Baptized and Confirmed.

In 1972 95% of all Swedes were Church members, in 2017 it was still 60%.

To me that would suggest that the Church values still play a major role in Swedish society.
 Quoting: newtome


Except for the church value of slavery. Still one of the most atheistic countries.

Do you ever research any of your claimed facts before you make them?
 Quoting: newtome


Yes. Most of them. You should try it.
 Quoting: Spur-Man



You truly are ignorant and cherry picking aspects of society that bear little relationship to the points you are trying to make.
 Quoting: newtome


I don't care if you think I'm ignorant. Rape and murder were outlawed long before Christianity. The 10 commandments were taken from the Egyptian book of the dead. The code of Hamurabi dates to 1754 BC.

Japan and Sweden are extremely homogeneous populations with a fundamental religious underpinning of their society and societal values and practices. have you ever looked into the two countries? You can claim atheism but the populations of both countries are actively following their respective religious values and practices.
 Quoting: newtome


Nice attempt to dodge the point. Sweden and Japan have higher concentrations of atheism, yet less rape and murder than more Christian countries. Slavery is condoned by the Bible, so you can't credit it with the abolition of slavery. Japan doesn't need Christian values.


Christian values come from the teaching of Christ, Jesus, not believing the Bible or divinity. Just look at the beliefs of Franklin and Jefferson.


America was largely founded by Freemasons, freedom of religion made sense for them but their values were Christian.
 Quoting: newtome


The golden rule 'treat others as you wish to be treated' was said by Confucius centuries before Jesus. You cant hijack basic morality and claim it belongs to Christianity.

I follow plenty of the values of Jesus, does that make me a Christian? Except this: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling..." -Jesus

Freedom of religion directly contradicts the commandments. So, your claim that judeo-christian values are the foundation of America is wrong.

Amusing how you claim Atheists are still getting their children Baptised and Confirmed? Why would that be? You seriously don't understand how Christian values become part of a society even if they claim to lose their belief in God.
 Quoting: newtome


Okay, so they're lying about being atheists then. You're psychic now? Back that up please.

If all you are going to do is make your own points while not addressing any of mine then this will become a worthless exchange very quickly.
 Quoting: newtome


I address your points and you misrepresent me and go on irrelevant tangents. I think this exchange is already worthless. I'm arguing for evolution, and you took it to: science believes we should all rape and murder each other.

This is typical when debating Creationists.

Last Edited by Spur-Man on 01/07/2019 07:51 AM
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You truly are ignorant and cherry picking aspects of society that bear little relationship to the points you are trying to make.
 Quoting: Spur-


I don't care if you think I'm ignorant. Rape and murder were outlawed long before Christianity. The 10 commandments were taken from the Egyptian book of the dead. The code of Hamurabi dates to 1754 BC.

Japan and Sweden are extremely homogeneous populations with a fundamental religious underpinning of their society and societal values and practices. have you ever looked into the two countries? You can claim atheism but the populations of both countries are actively following their respective religious values and practices.
 Quoting: newtome


Nice attempt to dodge the point. Sweden and Japan have higher concentrations of atheism, yet less rape and murder than more Christian countries. Slavery is condoned by the Bible, so you can't credit it with the abolition of slavery. Japan doesn't need Christian values.


Christian values come from the teaching of Christ, Jesus, not believing the Bible or divinity. Just look at the beliefs of Franklin and Jefferson.


America was largely founded by Freemasons, freedom of religion made sense for them but their values were Christian.
 Quoting: newtome


The golden rule 'treat others as you wish to be treated' was said by Confucius centuries before Jesus. You cant hijack basic morality and claim it belongs to Christianity.

I follow plenty of the values of Jesus, does that make me a Christian? Except this: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling..." -Jesus

Freedom of religion directly contradicts the commandments. So, your claim that judeo-christian values are the foundation of America is wrong.

Amusing how you claim Atheists are still getting their children Baptised and Confirmed? Why would that be? You seriously don't understand how Christian values become part of a society even if they claim to lose their belief in God.
 Quoting: newtome


Okay, so they're lying about being atheists then. You're psychic now? Back that up please.

If all you are going to do is make your own points while not addressing any of mine then this will become a worthless exchange very quickly.
 Quoting: newtome


I address your points and you misrepresent me and go on irrelevant tangents. I think this exchange is already worthless. I'm arguing for evolution, and you took it to: science believes we should all rape and murder each other.

This is typical when debating Creationists.







Perfect. so when it is said societies are based on Judea-Christian values they are actually referring to Egypt and Hamurabi. Got it. I am not trying to hijack anything, the debate about Judea-Christian values and their influence on many countries including Australia and America are easily found.

Stop conflating the Bible and Christian values.

Freedom of religion doesn't contradict Freemasonary and the majority of the founding Fathers were Freemasons.

Swedish and Japanese Atheists??
This is a common fallacious argument put forward by those arguing against religion. It has been shown to be wrong time and again. It is the misconception that a claimed lack of belief in a God also means that how they live and their values are no longer consistent with their respective religions.

If you care to investigate both countries you will see that their religious values and practices are embedded into their societies so although they may claim to lack a belief in God they are still largely practicing the same values they were while believing,

I don't like Wikipedia but it is easy and can be confirmed in lots of other places.

Let's look at Sweden.
[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Year 2017
Swedish Population 10,120,242
Church Members 5,993,368
% of Population 59.3%

Additionally
In 2000 the Church of Sweden ceased to be a state church, but there remains a strong tradition of community connection with churches, particularly in relation to rites of passage, with many infants baptized and teenagers confirmed (currently 40% of all 14 year olds[9]) for families without formal church membership.

Formal Church Membership = 59.3%
No Membership = 40.7% and 40% of these children are baptized and confirmed

In simple terms that is 75% of children are still Baptised and Christened. (59% + (40% x 40%) ) = 75%
Yes it assumes Church Members and non Members are having children at the same rate.

So by your reckoning that means that Atheists are actively getting their children Baptized and confirmed.

If you seriously want to talk about Japan after their actions during WW2 then I will happily do that. I have spent quite a lot of time in Japan but in essence it is like sweden, the community has a very strong connection to their religious practices.


I never took it to rape and murder, I explained why various Christians do. If you want to say Christian VALUES are based on myths then you need to offer up alternatives otherwise you are just saying that you accept MOST things about Christianity apart from God and the divinity of Jesus. God aside that is really no different to Franklin and Jefferson who still believed the teachings of Jesus were the best values they could find to base a country on.
Spur-Man

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Perfect. so when it is said societies are based on Judea-Christian values they are actually referring to Egypt and Hamurabi. Got it. I am not trying to hijack anything, the debate about Judea-Christian values and their influence on many countries including Australia and America are easily found.
 Quoting: newtome


See, irrelevant tangent and misrepresentation. I never said anything about influence. YOU said judeo-christian values were the foundation. Yet the founding documents contradict the commandments. You asked me why 'judeo-christian countries' have less slavery. I explained that slavery was recently abolished by secular governments. The Bible condones slavery.

Stop conflating the Bible and Christian values.
 Quoting: newtome


People take the values of Jesus directly from the Bible. Are the 10 commandments not Christian values?

Freedom of religion doesn't contradict Freemasonary and the majority of the founding Fathers were Freemasons.
 Quoting: newtome


Yes. Who cares? Pointless tangent.

Swedish and Japanese Atheists??
This is a common fallacious argument put forward by those arguing against religion. It has been shown to be wrong time and again. It is the misconception that a claimed lack of belief in a God also means that how they live and their values are no longer consistent with their respective religions.

If you care to investigate both countries you will see that their religious values and practices are embedded into their societies so although they may claim to lack a belief in God they are still largely practicing the same values they were while believing,

I don't like Wikipedia but it is easy and can be confirmed in lots of other places.
 Quoting: newtome


Another pointless tangent. Japan is majority non-religious. I don't care if their values are consistent with religion, Japan demonstrates that a majority population without religious belief can result in less murder and rape than a majority religious society. People don't need religion to be moral.

Let's look at Sweden.
[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Year 2017
Swedish Population 10,120,242
Church Members 5,993,368
% of Population 59.3%

Additionally
In 2000 the Church of Sweden ceased to be a state church, but there remains a strong tradition of community connection with churches, particularly in relation to rites of passage, with many infants baptized and teenagers confirmed (currently 40% of all 14 year olds[9]) for families without formal church membership.

Formal Church Membership = 59.3%
No Membership = 40.7% and 40% of these children are baptized and confirmed

In simple terms that is 75% of children are still Baptised and Christened. (59% + (40% x 40%) ) = 75%
Yes it assumes Church Members and non Members are having children at the same rate.

So by your reckoning that means that Atheists are actively getting their children Baptized and confirmed.
 Quoting: newtome


Misrepresentation and pointless tangent. Sweden is 18% atheist. America is about 4% similar to the congo.

If you seriously want to talk about Japan after their actions during WW2 then I will happily do that. I have spent quite a lot of time in Japan but in essence it is like sweden, the community has a very strong connection to their religious practices.
 Quoting: newtome


WW2, pointless tangent. Germany was majority Christian.

I never took it to rape and murder, I explained why various Christians do. If you want to say Christian VALUES are based on myths then you need to offer up alternatives otherwise you are just saying that you accept MOST things about Christianity apart from God and the divinity of Jesus. God aside that is really no different to Franklin and Jefferson who still believed the teachings of Jesus were the best values they could find to base a country on.
 Quoting: newtome


That doesn't make any sense. Deists, by definition do believe Christian values are based on myths. What was Jefferson's alternative?

I don't accept 'most things' about Christianity, neither do I have to offer an alternative in order to think murder and rape are bad.

Last Edited by Spur-Man on 01/07/2019 09:24 AM
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
You are being willfully ignorant again

I am not religious but Christian = Christ = NT.
10 Commandments are OT


Most of the Founding Fathers were freemasons who also believed in the teachings of Jesus but not his divinity, Franklin as an example. Freemasons only require a belief in a God so are not going to write a document that requires only Christianity. The teachings of Jesus are the basis of Christianity and are where Christian values come from.

Have you got that now????????????


You are now confusing Atheism and religion. You said Japan was Atheist? Again maybe they are but religious practices are embedded in their society. There isn't any way that Japan has a majority without religious belief, go there and you might understand. Do they have a majority of Atheists like you claimed before?


You do know that morality is whatever society decides it is? If society condones rape and murder of infidels then to that society those actions are moral.


Atheists vs irreligious, you do understand the difference?
[link to www.independent.co.uk (secure)]

China 50% How is their crime rates?

Japan 30%+
Between 30 and 39 per cent of the people on the Japanese islands say they are "convinced atheists".

Religion in Japan has historically been centred around Shintoism, which is based on ritual and a mythology surrounding the ancient past of Japan, rather than an all-seeing god.

However, it remains spiritual in nature and could not be called atheistic. Yet Shintoism, like Buddhism in Japan, has seen a decline in followers in recent years.

Czech Republic 30%+

France 20%

Australia 10-19%

Clearly you still don't get it because you hope so badly that it is true.



Yes it is obvious you don't get it. The teachings of Jesus are Christian values. You don't need to believe or be religious to consider them good values. Those values were fundamental to the founding fathers irrespective of them being Christian, Deists or anything else because they stated clearly their thoughts about his teachings.
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
I will pray for you lost souls who have not God. Know this, life is not meaningless, death is not your end, the soul goes on. Time is of the essence, repent for your wickedness and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Do not hesitate the sooner you do this the better it will be for you.

Look around, this universe of precise super symmetry that you study so intently, this simulated reality, this "real" MMO for your soul to play in was constructed by the ultimate mind. You may be confused due to the evil displayed on this plain of reality, but our earth has been taken over and violated by the prince of darkness satan/Lucifer. Do not lose hope, again death is not the end, escape your paradigm, you are not mere apes you are human beings conditioned by the illuminati to believe in evolution.


Transcend your pathetic weak foolish world view and ensure the future of your souls. They have scientifically proven that information can be teleported, this is what happens when you die. Your soul (an information packet) is moved into the afterlife. One thing is for sure, two things for certain: Science as of yet cannot prove how life began, or what happens to a persons consciousness after they die...




spockIdol1pl0t-thickens2











trump-HRYK

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Spur-Man

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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
You are being willfully ignorant again
 Quoting: newtome


Of what?

I am not religious but Christian = Christ = NT.
10 Commandments are OT
 Quoting: newtome


I was a christian for many years. Jesus said to honor the commandments, and I guarantee you the majority of Christians you speak to believe the 10 commandments are valid.

Most of the Founding Fathers were freemasons who also believed in the teachings of Jesus but not his divinity, Franklin as an example. Freemasons only require a belief in a God so are not going to write a document that requires only Christianity. The teachings of Jesus are the basis of Christianity and are where Christian values come from.

Have you got that now????????????
 Quoting: newtome


Where are the teachings of Jesus found? In the Bible. Do you even understand why Jesus is considered to be significant? He is believed to be the jewish messiah, prophesied in the old testament. He performed miracles and rose from the dead. Died for the sins of humanity. Without the bible, there is no Christianity.

No Christians think that Jesus was just some guy. Jesus constantly referenced the old testament. Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Moses. He said his most important message was to love God above all things. More than your own family. If all that is a myth, then Christianity is meaningless.

You are now confusing Atheism and religion. You said Japan was Atheist? Again maybe they are but religious practices are embedded in their society. There isn't any way that Japan has a majority without religious belief, go there and you might understand. Do they have a majority of Atheists like you claimed before?
 Quoting: newtome


I'm not confusing anything you obnoxious spaz. According to surveys, most Japanese identify as non religious. I'm supposed to think that's false because you went there for a while? Are you mental?

I never said majority atheist, I said majority non-religious. I said they are one of the most atheistic countries. Your reading comprehension is terrible, talking to you is like pulling teeth.

You do know that morality is whatever society decides it is? If society condones rape and murder of infidels then to that society those actions are moral.
 Quoting: newtome


You have a very poor understanding of morality. No, I don't think rape is moral just because a society says so. Here's a question, is slavery moral if God says so? Because he does. He also permitted rape, including sex slavery. Tying morality to 'Christian values' doesn't make them objective. We can have values without religion.

Atheists vs irreligious, you do understand the difference?
[link to www.independent.co.uk (secure)]

China 50% How is their crime rates?
 Quoting: newtome


Look it up. Not as bad as the congo I'm guessing.

Japan 30%+
Between 30 and 39 per cent of the people on the Japanese islands say they are "convinced atheists".

Religion in Japan has historically been centred around Shintoism, which is based on ritual and a mythology surrounding the ancient past of Japan, rather than an all-seeing god.

However, it remains spiritual in nature and could not be called atheistic. Yet Shintoism, like Buddhism in Japan, has seen a decline in followers in recent years.
 Quoting: newtome


Right. So a country with less rape and murder than the USA functions almost entirely without a belief in God. And nowadays the majority identify as non-religious. SO your whole point about me needing to replace 'Christian values' is nonsense, isn't it? Right? Good. Move along.

Czech Republic 30%+

France 20%

Australia 10-19%

Clearly you still don't get it because you hope so badly that it is true.
 Quoting: newtome


I don't get what? WTF are you talking about?


Yes it is obvious you don't get it. The teachings of Jesus are Christian values. You don't need to believe or be religious to consider them good values. Those values were fundamental to the founding fathers irrespective of them being Christian, Deists or anything else because they stated clearly their thoughts about his teachings.
 Quoting: newtome


I'm confident I know more about Christianity than you. Jesus said his greatest teaching was to love god above all things, more than your family. He was referring to the god of the old testament. The god that deists don't believe in. Process that.

I don't even know what you're arguing for anymore. Your posts are so erratic and jumbled. Please, summarize what point you are trying to make, because I'm about ready to finish this.
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I have only ever replied to your points and followed you down the rabbit hole. Look back.


At least I know what your problem is, a reformed Christian who is disillusioned with the Church and religion. You are so blinded that all you can see is what you left.


Benjamin Franklin (just before his death)
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho' it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.


Thomas Jefferson
The White House, Washington, D.C. 1804.

Thomas Jefferson was frustrated. It was not the burdens of office that bothered him. It was his Bible.

Jefferson was convinced that the authentic words of Jesus written in the New Testament had been contaminated. Early Christians, overly eager to make their religion appealing to the pagans, had obscured the words of Jesus with the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and the teachings of Plato. These "Platonists" had thoroughly muddled Jesus' original message. Jefferson assured his friend and rival, John Adams, that the authentic words of Jesus were still there. The task, as he put it, was one of

abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separate from that as the diamond from the dung hill.
.............................
Jefferson composed a short monograph titled The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. The subtitle explains that the work is "extracted from the account of his life and the doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John." In it, Jefferson presented what he understood was the true message of Jesus.



Neither believed in his divinity and by your logic that means they didn't believe in the Bible and weren't Christians. Both believed in the teachings of Jesus. Explain what that makes them and why using the term "Christian values" is inherently wrong? Would the values of Jesus be better? Are they that dissimilar to Christian values?
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Re: Scientists Baffled-New Discoveries-Darwinian Evolution Crumbling-Scientists Abandon Theory
I have only ever replied to your points and followed you down the rabbit hole. Look back.


At least I know what your problem is, a reformed Christian who is disillusioned with the Church and religion. You are so blinded that all you can see is what you left.


Benjamin Franklin (just before his death)
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho' it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.


Thomas Jefferson
The White House, Washington, D.C. 1804.

Thomas Jefferson was frustrated. It was not the burdens of office that bothered him. It was his Bible.

Jefferson was convinced that the authentic words of Jesus written in the New Testament had been contaminated. Early Christians, overly eager to make their religion appealing to the pagans, had obscured the words of Jesus with the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and the teachings of Plato. These "Platonists" had thoroughly muddled Jesus' original message. Jefferson assured his friend and rival, John Adams, that the authentic words of Jesus were still there. The task, as he put it, was one of

abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separate from that as the diamond from the dung hill.
.............................
Jefferson composed a short monograph titled The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. The subtitle explains that the work is "extracted from the account of his life and the doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John." In it, Jefferson presented what he understood was the true message of Jesus.



Neither believed in his divinity and by your logic that means they didn't believe in the Bible and weren't Christians. Both believed in the teachings of Jesus. Explain what that makes them and why using the term "Christian values" is inherently wrong? Would the values of Jesus be better? Are they that dissimilar to Christian values?
 Quoting: newtome


Oh, you know what my problem is? I'm blind? Go play in traffic.

What is your point? What argument are you trying to make?