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Rockets need an atmosphere to propel

 
Balance242
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Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]


Idol1
Balance242
Pilgrim001

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01/20/2019 11:18 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?

Last Edited by Pilgrim001 on 01/20/2019 11:20 AM
Funny how 'social security' has a shortfall...but never WELFARE!
Gimme a break.
Somehow, we can always afford ALL types of welfare (even for millions of illegal immigrants!), plus billions in foreign aid to nations that hate us...BUT...social security is a "problem".

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Union Jackboot

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01/20/2019 11:24 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]


Idol1
 Quoting: Balance242


Ever heard of conservatiom of momentum? I guess not, because you ramble about forces, velocity and weight of coins. What do you think recoil is? When you fire a gun, the momentum of gases and bullet gives the gun an equal momentum in the opposite direction. It happens in atmosphere. It happens in vacuum.
It doesn't matter if you are white, black or purple, Christian, Muslim or Hindu. If you live in UK and don't respect the Crown, the Government and the Law of the Land, the Union Jackboot is going to walk all over you.
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


If the nuke simply creates pressure, then yes. But in reality there would be shrapnel, like a grenade.

A firearm would only be a good analogy if using a blank. The combustion builds up between the bullet and the barrel. Like two blocks between a compressed spring, the spring pushes both blocks in opposite directions when the spring is uncompressed.

A rocket is more like a compressed spring attached to one block. As the spring uncompresses, it only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air, not very much
Balance242
Sticker

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
ohlook
Sticker
Pilgrim001

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01/20/2019 11:52 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


If the nuke simply creates pressure, then yes. But in reality there would be shrapnel, like a grenade.

A firearm would only be a good analogy if using a blank. The combustion builds up between the bullet and the barrel. Like two blocks between a compressed spring, the spring pushes both blocks in opposite directions when the spring is uncompressed.

A rocket is more like a compressed spring attached to one block. As the spring uncompresses, it only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air, not very much
 Quoting: Balance242


And the earth is flat, right? How does the sun get back to the east side of the flat earth to make the trip each day? Does it go around, underneath, and past the turtles holding the earth up to get back to starting position?
Funny how 'social security' has a shortfall...but never WELFARE!
Gimme a break.
Somehow, we can always afford ALL types of welfare (even for millions of illegal immigrants!), plus billions in foreign aid to nations that hate us...BUT...social security is a "problem".

Nah, the problem is the goobermint...Unknown AC.


Blame it on my ADD, baby...Sail


The election of Donald Trump didn't cause the hatred displayed by the progressive liberal left and democratic party. The election of Donald Trump exposed it.
Donald Isaacson

Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered....Stolen
Nonentity

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Bullshit because chunks of ice will change it's path if steam vents out.

Comets change direction when they outgas
Huck Fillary

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01/20/2019 12:08 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof that rockets work in space: rockets in space.
“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


If the nuke simply creates pressure, then yes. But in reality there would be shrapnel, like a grenade.

A firearm would only be a good analogy if using a blank. The combustion builds up between the bullet and the barrel. Like two blocks between a compressed spring, the spring pushes both blocks in opposite directions when the spring is uncompressed.

A rocket is more like a compressed spring attached to one block. As the spring uncompresses, it only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air, not very much
 Quoting: Balance242


And the earth is flat, right? How does the sun get back to the east side of the flat earth to make the trip each day? Does it go around, underneath, and past the turtles holding the earth up to get back to starting position?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


It's not a turtle. It's a toad. Whenever a toad swallows an insect, it uses its eyeballs to push the prey down its throat. So whenever a ship falls of the edge of the flat earth, the toad eats it, and as it's eyeball disappears you see the sun or moon. When the toad wakes up it's eyeball pops up, partially blocking the sun and or moon. That's how you get eclipses.

Glad I could clear that up for you.
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
no they dont. moron.
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AnonCh4rl1

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01/20/2019 12:37 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?


 Quoting: Balance242


Not sure if Trolling or Stupid, however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your pipe analogy is stupid, The air would be removed and the weight of that air would be reflected in the scale weight, just because their is no air in the tube does not mean the penny is now massless, or can somehow overcome gravity.

What airflow are you talking about? its either a vacuum chamber or a low pressure area, have you been taking meds and playing with vacuum cleaners??

Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]


Idol1
 Quoting: Balance242


Ever heard of conservatiom of momentum? I guess not, because you ramble about forces, velocity and weight of coins. What do you think recoil is? When you fire a gun, the momentum of gases and bullet gives the gun an equal momentum in the opposite direction. It happens in atmosphere. It happens in vacuum.
 Quoting: Union Jackboot

Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]


Idol1
 Quoting: Balance242


Ever heard of conservatiom of momentum? I guess not, because you ramble about forces, velocity and weight of coins. What do you think recoil is? When you fire a gun, the momentum of gases and bullet gives the gun an equal momentum in the opposite direction. It happens in atmosphere. It happens in vacuum.
 Quoting: Union Jackboot


"No work is done, because the gas does not displace anything."
[link to physics.bu.edu]

Momentum is conserved when it the exhaust hits something like the atmosphere.

Just like when you drop something, the momentum is conserved when it hits the ground.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?


 Quoting: Balance242


Not sure if Trolling or Stupid, however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your pipe analogy is stupid, The air would be removed and the weight of that air would be reflected in the scale weight, just because their is no air in the tube does not mean the penny is now massless, or can somehow overcome gravity.

What airflow are you talking about? its either a vacuum chamber or a low pressure area, have you been taking meds and playing with vacuum cleaners??


 Quoting: AnonCh4rl1


Clearly the chamber is not a vacuum when you can see the buildup of smoke. You must be stupid to think a container filled with smoke can be under vacuum.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof that rockets work in space: rockets in space.
 Quoting: Huck Fillary


prove it! I disproved it using simple experiment. Why don't you use simple experiment to prove it.
Balance242
OICU812

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Trying to teach a retard is a waste of time. OP is a retard
"Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Arawn

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
science
Mike in Southampton

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Bullshit because chunks of ice will change it's path if steam vents out.

Comets change direction when they outgas
 Quoting: Nonentity


Checkmate op.
Religion - I don't know, and you don't either
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Bullshit because chunks of ice will change it's path if steam vents out.

Comets change direction when they outgas
 Quoting: Nonentity


Checkmate op.
 Quoting: Mike in Southampton


Again, no proof just bunch of made up stuff.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


If the nuke simply creates pressure, then yes. But in reality there would be shrapnel, like a grenade.

A firearm would only be a good analogy if using a blank. The combustion builds up between the bullet and the barrel. Like two blocks between a compressed spring, the spring pushes both blocks in opposite directions when the spring is uncompressed.

A rocket is more like a compressed spring attached to one block. As the spring uncompresses, it only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air, not very much
 Quoting: Balance242


And the earth is flat, right? How does the sun get back to the east side of the flat earth to make the trip each day? Does it go around, underneath, and past the turtles holding the earth up to get back to starting position?
 Quoting: Pilgrim001


Why are you changing the subject. Because you have no proof that rockets can work without an atmosphere?
Balance242
Masiro®

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof that rockets work in space: rockets in space.
 Quoting: Huck Fillary


prove it! I disproved it using simple experiment. Why don't you use simple experiment to prove it.
 Quoting: Balance242


Rockets motors do not push against the atmosphere they push against the rocket body.

simple test:

put a scale on the pushed side of the rocket motor and measure the amount of force

put the same scale on the exhaust side of the rocket motor and measure the force against the scale.

The result will always be greater on the side to which the rocket moves (away from the exhaust) because of the effect of the rocket's thrust against the object it pushes through space and the atmosphere.
Arawn

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01/20/2019 12:59 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae

This should explain it all, since obviously, you are a rocket-scientist...
Gelatinous Mass

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
I cringe when I think of what the future holds when encountering people like OP.

The depth of ignorance and lack of basic education in the sciences is saddening.
Powder

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
The fuel contains it's own oxidizer doofus. Learn some chemistry.
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof that rockets work in space: rockets in space.
 Quoting: Huck Fillary


prove it! I disproved it using simple experiment. Why don't you use simple experiment to prove it.
 Quoting: Balance242


Rockets motors do not push against the atmosphere they push against the rocket body.

simple test:

put a scale on the pushed side of the rocket motor and measure the amount of force

put the same scale on the exhaust side of the rocket motor and measure the force against the scale.

The result will always be greater on the side to which the rocket moves (away from the exhaust) because of the effect of the rocket's thrust against the object it pushes through space and the atmosphere.
 Quoting: Masiro®


There is no force. Air and other objects move out of the pipe, mass expelled, there is no opposite reaction on the scale. You can do this yourself at home. Make a container with your hand and see if you feel the opposite reaction.

When wind blows towards your back, the air in front of your face also moves away from your face, did you feel the opposite reaction on your face?
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae

This should explain it all, since obviously, you are a rocket-scientist...
 Quoting: Arawn


Anyone can make an equation. The equation has to explain reality. Why didn't I see an opposite force on the scale when i removed the air and other objects from the pipe?
Balance242
Mike in Southampton

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Again, no proof just bunch of made up stuff.
 Quoting: Balance242


Sigh, so you're one of those trolls who don't actually want to discuss the topic in good faith. Did your parents not give you enough attention when you were growing up?
Religion - I don't know, and you don't either
Arawn

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae

This should explain it all, since obviously, you are a rocket-scientist...
 Quoting: Arawn


Anyone can make an equation. The equation has to explain reality. Why didn't I see an opposite force on the scale when i removed the air and other objects from the pipe?
 Quoting: Balance242


moron
Mike in Southampton

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae

This should explain it all, since obviously, you are a rocket-scientist...
 Quoting: Arawn


cruise
Religion - I don't know, and you don't either
Balance242  (OP)

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01/20/2019 01:16 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae

This should explain it all, since obviously, you are a rocket-scientist...
 Quoting: Arawn


Anyone can make an equation. The equation has to explain reality. Why didn't I see an opposite force on the scale when i removed the air and other objects from the pipe?
 Quoting: Balance242


moron
 Quoting: Arawn


then prove it. Every other equation explains reality but this one doesn't. Name calling rather than a sufficient explanation is the result of lying.
Balance242
hotdogg

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
OP, your internet connection and TV likely depend on satellite in space. Been putting stuff into orbit since the late 50s.
It an action/reaction thing...when you accelerate mass in one direction, there is a reaction which proportionally accelerates the host body in the opposite direction....simple, proven physics. Spacewalking astronauts deal with this problem every time they go out...thus all the handholds on the outside of the ISS.

The "work" of an engine firing in a vacuum is all done in the nozzle, efficiently accelerating the mass aft to create a forward force.