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# Rockets need an atmosphere to propel

Wotsits

User ID: 77291193
United Kingdom
01/20/2019 01:20 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Quoting: Balance242

Not sure if Trolling or Stupid, however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your pipe analogy is stupid, The air would be removed and the weight of that air would be reflected in the scale weight, just because their is no air in the tube does not mean the penny is now massless, or can somehow overcome gravity.

What airflow are you talking about? its either a vacuum chamber or a low pressure area, have you been taking meds and playing with vacuum cleaners??

Quoting: AnonCh4rl1

Clearly the chamber is not a vacuum when you can see the buildup of smoke. You must be stupid to think a container filled with smoke can be under vacuum.
Quoting: Balance242

And its hitting sides/back of chamber. Try that in huge vacuum space...
ParadoxicalExistence

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01/20/2019 01:23 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Rockets have a combustion chamber with tons of pressure, all of this pressure is forced to exit in one general direction out the nozzle.

The mass of this gas would naturally expand in all directions if it wasn't forced out in one direction.

It's this forcing out of the gas in one direction that propels the rocket.

If this doesn't convince you then nothing will.

Last Edited by ParadoxicalExistence on 01/20/2019 01:25 PM
Balance242  (OP)

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01/20/2019 01:26 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Rockets have a combustion chamber with tons of pressure, all of this pressure is forced to exit in one general direction out the nozzle.

This mass of this gas would naturally expand in all directions if it wasn't forced out in one direction.

It's this forcing out of the gas in one direction that propels the rocket.

If this doesn't convince you then nothing will.
Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

Then why is no force on the scale? Pressure in the pipe is forced out in one general direction. What is your point?
Balance242
Tombstone

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01/20/2019 01:28 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Rockets have a combustion chamber with tons of pressure, all of this pressure is forced to exit in one general direction out the nozzle.

The mass of this gas would naturally expand in all directions if it wasn't forced out in one direction.

It's this forcing out of the gas in one direction that propels the rocket.

If this doesn't convince you then nothing will.
Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

Don't argue with stupid.

Fact is that the person you are arguing with is probably highly uneducated.
Masiro®

User ID: 77027273
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01/20/2019 01:31 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof that rockets work in space: rockets in space.
Quoting: Huck Fillary

prove it! I disproved it using simple experiment. Why don't you use simple experiment to prove it.
Quoting: Balance242

Rockets motors do not push against the atmosphere they push against the rocket body.

simple test:

put a scale on the pushed side of the rocket motor and measure the amount of force

put the same scale on the exhaust side of the rocket motor and measure the force against the scale.

The result will always be greater on the side to which the rocket moves (away from the exhaust) because of the effect of the rocket's thrust against the object it pushes through space and the atmosphere.
Quoting: Masiro®

There is no force. Air and other objects move out of the pipe, mass expelled, there is no opposite reaction on the scale. You can do this yourself at home. Make a container with your hand and see if you feel the opposite reaction.

When wind blows towards your back, the air in front of your face also moves away from your face, did you feel the opposite reaction on your face?
Quoting: Balance242

"For every action there is an opposite reaction."

That is a fundamental law of physics 101.

Also known as Newton's third law of motion, it explains why things move because of the force applied to them.

Like the wind against my face for instance.

Simple question: What pushes the wind against my face?

By your reasoning because the atmosphere is there I should not feel anything and there should be no movement.

The pennies in the tube lift because of the sudden rush of air out the tube, but if the vacuum process is slowed down to a point where the extraction of the gases in the tube isn't enough to lift the penny, then the penny won't move at all.

The variable in your experiment is the speed at which you extract the air inside the tube, you are doing it at a high speed fast enough to raise the weight of a penny.
Arawn

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United States
01/20/2019 01:32 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Arawn

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01/20/2019 01:33 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
:thrust:
ParadoxicalExistence

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01/20/2019 01:34 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Rockets have a combustion chamber with tons of pressure, all of this pressure is forced to exit in one general direction out the nozzle.

This mass of this gas would naturally expand in all directions if it wasn't forced out in one direction.

It's this forcing out of the gas in one direction that propels the rocket.

If this doesn't convince you then nothing will.
Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

Then why is no force on the scale? Pressure in the pipe is forced out in one general direction. What is your point?
Quoting: Balance242

The pressure in the pipe is pulled out via a pump, the pipe isn't doing any work.

A better experiment would be to put a pressurized pipe inside a vacuum, then open a valve to release the air in the pipe.

Last Edited by ParadoxicalExistence on 01/20/2019 01:35 PM
Dr. Deplorable Astromut
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01/20/2019 01:36 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Wrong.

The booster rockets completely null their horizontal velocity while in space and then come back to land at the launch site. Ergo, rockets do not need an atmosphere to propel themselves. Do not accuse this footage of being fake. I filmed it myself.

Last Edited by Dr. Deplorable Astromut on 01/20/2019 01:37 PM
1guynAz

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01/20/2019 02:08 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
You're new here. I see that.

We've been through this TOO MANY TIMES!

Inertia....PHYSICS
a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, unless that state is changed by an external force.

The rocket creates it within the structure. The structure feels the force...and you have movement.

Trust me, I was a denier too. But we are up there. Doesn't mean I think we're doing good thing's with all our knowledge.

We could be better if not for the evil force of fear and destructiveness.

Those two make a person manipulated. And corrupt whatever could be used for good, and turns it and us into evil beings....sometimes.

I pray for us everyday...but our only hope is in the Salvation God has provided! For we CANNOT save ourselves.

Everyone wants war but the people that fight them.
AnonCh4rl1

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01/20/2019 05:06 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Quoting: Balance242

Not sure if Trolling or Stupid, however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your pipe analogy is stupid, The air would be removed and the weight of that air would be reflected in the scale weight, just because their is no air in the tube does not mean the penny is now massless, or can somehow overcome gravity.

What airflow are you talking about? its either a vacuum chamber or a low pressure area, have you been taking meds and playing with vacuum cleaners??

Quoting: AnonCh4rl1

Clearly the chamber is not a vacuum when you can see the buildup of smoke. You must be stupid to think a container filled with smoke can be under vacuum.
Quoting: Balance242

now i know your trolling
Balance242  (OP)

User ID: 76708078
Canada
01/20/2019 11:57 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...

prove it! I disproved it using simple experiment. Why don't you use simple experiment to prove it.
Quoting: Balance242

Rockets motors do not push against the atmosphere they push against the rocket body.

simple test:

put a scale on the pushed side of the rocket motor and measure the amount of force

put the same scale on the exhaust side of the rocket motor and measure the force against the scale.

The result will always be greater on the side to which the rocket moves (away from the exhaust) because of the effect of the rocket's thrust against the object it pushes through space and the atmosphere.
Quoting: Masiro®

There is no force. Air and other objects move out of the pipe, mass expelled, there is no opposite reaction on the scale. You can do this yourself at home. Make a container with your hand and see if you feel the opposite reaction.

When wind blows towards your back, the air in front of your face also moves away from your face, did you feel the opposite reaction on your face?
Quoting: Balance242

"For every action there is an opposite reaction."

That is a fundamental law of physics 101.

Also known as Newton's third law of motion, it explains why things move because of the force applied to them.

Like the wind against my face for instance.

Simple question: What pushes the wind against my face?

By your reasoning because the atmosphere is there I should not feel anything and there should be no movement.

The pennies in the tube lift because of the sudden rush of air out the tube, but if the vacuum process is slowed down to a point where the extraction of the gases in the tube isn't enough to lift the penny, then the penny won't move at all.

The variable in your experiment is the speed at which you extract the air inside the tube, you are doing it at a high speed fast enough to raise the weight of a penny.
Quoting: Masiro®

The movement is simply due to pressure difference. This movement is not the same as throwing or pushing an object. If the air flow is strong enough to lift the penny, the force must be at least greater than the normal force of the penny. But this is not seen on the scale, therefore, equal and opposite reaction does not happen.
Balance242
Tubbs

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01/21/2019 12:00 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel

Is This The Real World Or Is It Just Fantasy.
Balance242  (OP)

User ID: 76708078
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01/21/2019 12:01 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Rockets have a combustion chamber with tons of pressure, all of this pressure is forced to exit in one general direction out the nozzle.

This mass of this gas would naturally expand in all directions if it wasn't forced out in one direction.

It's this forcing out of the gas in one direction that propels the rocket.

If this doesn't convince you then nothing will.
Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

Then why is no force on the scale? Pressure in the pipe is forced out in one general direction. What is your point?
Quoting: Balance242

The pressure in the pipe is pulled out via a pump, the pipe isn't doing any work.

A better experiment would be to put a pressurized pipe inside a vacuum, then open a valve to release the air in the pipe.
Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

The vacuum creates an area of low pressure at the hose. Lear how a vacuum works. [link to www.quora.com (secure)]

The higher pressure in the pipe moves towards low pressure caused by the vacuum cleaner.

Similarly combustion creates high pressure and that pressure must move into the vacuum of space.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/21/2019 12:04 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
You're new here. I see that.

We've been through this TOO MANY TIMES!

Inertia....PHYSICS
a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, unless that state is changed by an external force.

The rocket creates it within the structure. The structure feels the force...and you have movement.

Trust me, I was a denier too. But we are up there. Doesn't mean I think we're doing good thing's with all our knowledge.

We could be better if not for the evil force of fear and destructiveness.

Those two make a person manipulated. And corrupt whatever could be used for good, and turns it and us into evil beings....sometimes.

I pray for us everyday...but our only hope is in the Salvation God has provided! For we CANNOT save ourselves.

Quoting: 1guynAz

Then why no opposite force on the scale? Movement of gas In both cases is due to pressure gradient. Not because the rocket pushes it out, that is absurd.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/21/2019 12:05 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Quoting: Balance242

Not sure if Trolling or Stupid, however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your pipe analogy is stupid, The air would be removed and the weight of that air would be reflected in the scale weight, just because their is no air in the tube does not mean the penny is now massless, or can somehow overcome gravity.

What airflow are you talking about? its either a vacuum chamber or a low pressure area, have you been taking meds and playing with vacuum cleaners??

Quoting: AnonCh4rl1

Clearly the chamber is not a vacuum when you can see the buildup of smoke. You must be stupid to think a container filled with smoke can be under vacuum.
Quoting: Balance242

now i know your trolling
Quoting: AnonCh4rl1

Again no proof
Balance242
Ducandy

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01/21/2019 12:09 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Quoting: Balance242

Fuck you, ya dumb bastard. Make a fool of yourself?
Balance242  (OP)

User ID: 76708078
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01/21/2019 12:11 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Name calling makes the conspiracy look more true. Why so mad?
Balance242
MogwaiHunter

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01/21/2019 12:16 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
I think you are right OP
Pilgrim001

User ID: 77021014
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01/21/2019 12:46 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So you're saying that if you launch a nuclear missile at a satellite in space, and the nuke goes off 10ft away from the satellite, it won't damage the satellite because there is no atmosphere. It won't even knock it off course. Is that Correct?
Quoting: Pilgrim001

If the nuke simply creates pressure, then yes. But in reality there would be shrapnel, like a grenade.

A firearm would only be a good analogy if using a blank. The combustion builds up between the bullet and the barrel. Like two blocks between a compressed spring, the spring pushes both blocks in opposite directions when the spring is uncompressed.

A rocket is more like a compressed spring attached to one block. As the spring uncompresses, it only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air, not very much
Quoting: Balance242

And the earth is flat, right? How does the sun get back to the east side of the flat earth to make the trip each day? Does it go around, underneath, and past the turtles holding the earth up to get back to starting position?
Quoting: Pilgrim001

It's not a turtle. It's a toad. Whenever a toad swallows an insect, it uses its eyeballs to push the prey down its throat. So whenever a ship falls of the edge of the flat earth, the toad eats it, and as it's eyeball disappears you see the sun or moon. When the toad wakes up it's eyeball pops up, partially blocking the sun and or moon. That's how you get eclipses.

Glad I could clear that up for you.
Quoting: Michibama

I guess the Lunar eclipse tonight means the toad got something to eat.
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76108104
United States
01/21/2019 01:16 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
We really dont need rockets anymore.

[link to www.ufohowto.com]

Masiro®

User ID: 77027273
United States
01/21/2019 01:31 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...

Rockets motors do not push against the atmosphere they push against the rocket body.

simple test:

put a scale on the pushed side of the rocket motor and measure the amount of force

put the same scale on the exhaust side of the rocket motor and measure the force against the scale.

The result will always be greater on the side to which the rocket moves (away from the exhaust) because of the effect of the rocket's thrust against the object it pushes through space and the atmosphere.
Quoting: Masiro®

There is no force. Air and other objects move out of the pipe, mass expelled, there is no opposite reaction on the scale. You can do this yourself at home. Make a container with your hand and see if you feel the opposite reaction.

When wind blows towards your back, the air in front of your face also moves away from your face, did you feel the opposite reaction on your face?
Quoting: Balance242

"For every action there is an opposite reaction."

That is a fundamental law of physics 101.

Also known as Newton's third law of motion, it explains why things move because of the force applied to them.

Like the wind against my face for instance.

Simple question: What pushes the wind against my face?

By your reasoning because the atmosphere is there I should not feel anything and there should be no movement.

The pennies in the tube lift because of the sudden rush of air out the tube, but if the vacuum process is slowed down to a point where the extraction of the gases in the tube isn't enough to lift the penny, then the penny won't move at all.

The variable in your experiment is the speed at which you extract the air inside the tube, you are doing it at a high speed fast enough to raise the weight of a penny.
Quoting: Masiro®

The movement is simply due to pressure difference. This movement is not the same as throwing or pushing an object. If the air flow is strong enough to lift the penny, the force must be at least greater than the normal force of the penny. But this is not seen on the scale, therefore, equal and opposite reaction does not happen.
Quoting: Balance242

I see you are still confused...

The penny moves because of the (Giovanni Battista) Venturi principle, which describes how lift is created by a difference in air pressure, or that when air pressure is lower on one side of an object than the other that low pressure side rises.

It's why wings work and has nothing to do with rocket motors.
watwick

User ID: 5957191
United Kingdom
01/21/2019 04:38 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Okay lets really go full retard.

Rockets need an atmosphere. But doesn't burning fuel produce gas that is a kind of take it anywhere atmosphere? fucking hell you Americans have some really stupid people in your land. And you wonder why your politics don't work - look at yourselves... Creationism, flat Earth and a non secular society. I am glad the rest of the world is fucking you off.
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Bearded Clam

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01/21/2019 04:54 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Simple proof, rockets don’t work in space vacuum: get a pipe with only one side open. Put closed face down on a scale. Remove the air from the pipe with vacuum. Where is the opposite force on the scale? I didn’t see it.

Now lets say you put an object, let say a few pennies that weight approx 3 grams each. Now the airflow is strong enough to lift those pennies against gravity. Shouldn’t I see a force greater than the normal force of the pennies?

Source from nasa states that the force it takes for the mass to move out from the rocket, is applied equally and oppositely on the rocket. Now the pipe experiment disproves this as there is no evidence of opposite force onto scale when air or even objects in the pipe move out.

Additionally, Joules expansion shows that no work is done when gas expands into a vacuum. Furthermore, thermodynamics states. Work=-external pressure *change in volume. If external pressure of space is 0, work done is 0.

Furthermore, NASA tends to concentrate on velocity rather than flow rate. Use of a nozzle. A smaller diameter pipe, increases the velocity, but leaves the flow rate unchanged. Flow rate is dependent on pressure differential. [link to www.1728.org]

If velocity (meters per second) is of importance rather than flow (kilograms/second), it makes more sense that the gas pushes off the atmosphere. Similarly, a car going at faster speed would generally have more drag.

Just like energy is required to move objects to a higher height (gravitational potential), energy is required to create pressure (energy from combustion). Therefore gravity and pressure are both potential energies.

To sum it all up, when you drop an object from a height, there is no opposite reaction on your hand because gravity causes a force (Force=mass*acceleration). Similarly, pressure gradient also causes a force [link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Quoting: Balance242

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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watwick

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01/21/2019 04:56 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So if I was standing on a perfectly frictionless airless ice rink for example and threw a basketball away from me what would happen OP? Nothing? Or something? Work it out yourself.
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watwick

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01/21/2019 05:02 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
I'll tell you - the sum of momentum would be 0. But but but the basketball is moving so it has some momentum. So to make the sum 0 you will move in the opposite direction with exactly the same momentum. As you are(I hope) heavier than a basketball you will move slower.

Conservation of momentum and circular momentum are the only laws of physics that haven't been fucked up by looking at the quantum scale.
Words have power and influence minds.
Yet when they are said they are gone.
Only the minds remain.
Balance242  (OP)

User ID: 76708078
Canada
01/21/2019 07:06 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...

There is no force. Air and other objects move out of the pipe, mass expelled, there is no opposite reaction on the scale. You can do this yourself at home. Make a container with your hand and see if you feel the opposite reaction.

When wind blows towards your back, the air in front of your face also moves away from your face, did you feel the opposite reaction on your face?
Quoting: Balance242

"For every action there is an opposite reaction."

That is a fundamental law of physics 101.

Also known as Newton's third law of motion, it explains why things move because of the force applied to them.

Like the wind against my face for instance.

Simple question: What pushes the wind against my face?

By your reasoning because the atmosphere is there I should not feel anything and there should be no movement.

The pennies in the tube lift because of the sudden rush of air out the tube, but if the vacuum process is slowed down to a point where the extraction of the gases in the tube isn't enough to lift the penny, then the penny won't move at all.

The variable in your experiment is the speed at which you extract the air inside the tube, you are doing it at a high speed fast enough to raise the weight of a penny.
Quoting: Masiro®

The movement is simply due to pressure difference. This movement is not the same as throwing or pushing an object. If the air flow is strong enough to lift the penny, the force must be at least greater than the normal force of the penny. But this is not seen on the scale, therefore, equal and opposite reaction does not happen.
Quoting: Balance242

I see you are still confused...

The penny moves because of the (Giovanni Battista) Venturi principle, which describes how lift is created by a difference in air pressure, or that when air pressure is lower on one side of an object than the other that low pressure side rises.

It's why wings work and has nothing to do with rocket motors.
Quoting: Masiro®

“The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section (or choke) of a pipe.” That is how the nozzle works. I already explained how the nozzle favours the fact that the exhaust pushes off the atmosphere. Regardless, a force greater than the force of gravity in the penny must be generated to lift the penny against gravity. I didn’t see that opposite force, therefore you are lying.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/21/2019 07:08 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
So if I was standing on a perfectly frictionless airless ice rink for example and threw a basketball away from me what would happen OP? Nothing? Or something? Work it out yourself.
Quoting: watwick

How is movement due to pressure differential the same as throwing a basketball. I can throw a ball without the need of a pressure gradient, but gas only moves out of the rocket due to pressure gradient. Not the same mechanism.
Balance242
Regal Beast

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01/21/2019 07:24 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
They propel against their own material they eject from the rocket.

The ejected material doesn't all get instantly sucked into the vastness of space a lot of it stays huddled near the ejection site.

That's what the rocket is actually pushing against.
Balance242  (OP)

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01/21/2019 07:29 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
They propel against their own material they eject from the rocket.

The ejected material doesn't all get instantly sucked into the vastness of space a lot of it stays huddled near the ejection site.

That's what the rocket is actually pushing against.
Quoting: Regal Beast

Obviously the pipe experiment disproves that.
Balance242