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Rockets need an atmosphere to propel

 
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 07:12 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
A good example is if you fire a pistol in space. The pistol will still recoil because of the gases from the propellant pushing against the bullet.
 Quoting: (*)(*)


Did you even read the initial post?
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 07:14 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
What you were attempting to show with your vacuum cleaner and pipe experiment was the removal of the weight of air in the section of pipe, which you expected to be observable on the scale.

The reason it failed is that for every volume of air you removed from the pipe, more simply rushed in from the open end of the pipe, resulting in no net change in weight, or minimal observable change.

Had you sealed off the pipe and created a true vacuum with the vacuum pump, you may have seen something, but probably not on an inaccurate bathroom scale, due to the relatively low mass of air.

Rockets do work in space. The rocket essentially carries its own mass along to interact with in an equal and opposite way. Onboard is fuel and an oxidizer that expands explosively through the Venturi nozzle, which greatly accelerates the exhaust gas.

The equal and opposite reaction occurs here in the nozzle. As the gas is accelerated downward from the point of reference of the nozzle, the nozzle is also accelerated upward from the point of view of the gas. The nozzle is obviously attached to the rocket and the resultant action is away from the exhaust gas.
 Quoting: MaxTork


Now you are making assumptions without proof. With the vacuum cleaner on and pointed close to the pipe, the pressure in the pipe would close to equilibrium with the vacuum hose. Any pressure trying to get in the pipe would go into the vacuum instead as the vacuum maintains low pressure.

Secondly, the initial evacuation, the airflow was strong enough to lift a penny against gravity, but there is no observable force on the scale.
 Quoting: Balance242


Additionally, you also said a nozzle is not required for a rocket to work in a vacuum in your previous post. So what you are saying is irrelevant. Optimization only occurs when the initial theory is proven.
Balance242
jiffy76

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01/23/2019 07:19 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
no they don't


They work because of Isaac Newton's third law of motion


and most importantly of all.. Rockets don't get thrust by pushing against the air. Rockets get thrust by pushing against the rocket on one side and pushing against nothing on the other side of an explosion.
Masiro®

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01/23/2019 07:24 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...



Air is a "fluid" because it's density can be changed by speed or pressure.


Because a wing is curved on top, air speeds up, creating a lower pressure(like the air being rapidly sucked out of the penny tube) and that lower pressure creates lift and the wing rises accordingly.

I would be lying if I created an entirely different reason for the penny to lift say anti gravity cretin particles...

Simple Test: put a penny on the floor, use a vacuum nozzle to try to pick it up starting a foot away from the penny and getting closer until the suction (lower air pressure) lifts it even without your tube over it.
 Quoting: Masiro®


Low pressure doesn’t create lift high pressure does. High pressure moves to low pressure. Higher the altitude the lower the pressure. If the vacuum hose is a foot away, you are not creating a pressure difference near the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Read it again...

I underlined the important part for you.

A vacuum cleaner nozzle will lift objects when it gets closer to them.

The Venturi principle is why vacuum cleaners work to begin with.

Once you understand why a penny lifts in your simple experiment, you will understand why your conclusions are wrong.
 Quoting: Masiro®




Are you insane? Venturi principle is pressure changes of fluid flow through different diameters of pipe. Has nothing to due with why the penny is lifted.

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Penny lifts because the airflow from the pipe into the vacuum is strong enough to lift the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Exactly my point, the vacuum that lifts the penny is a lower pressure than the surrounding air.

But here's why your premise is wrong:

1) you have a leak at the bottom of your tube

2) said leak causes the rush of air into the tube

3) this rush of air causes the penny to rise by getting under it

4) the thicker air floats the penny towards the lower pressure (vacuum source)

5) proof of venturi principle in action...

If your glass tube is completely sealed and secure at the bottom the penny will never rise when the air is pumped out of the tube.
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 07:25 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
no they don't


They work because of Isaac Newton's third law of motion


and most importantly of all.. Rockets don't get thrust by pushing against the air. Rockets get thrust by pushing against the rocket on one side and pushing against nothing on the other side of an explosion.
 Quoting: jiffy76


A simple experiment would prove that. Can you think of such a simple experiment?
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 07:27 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...


Low pressure doesn’t create lift high pressure does. High pressure moves to low pressure. Higher the altitude the lower the pressure. If the vacuum hose is a foot away, you are not creating a pressure difference near the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Read it again...

I underlined the important part for you.

A vacuum cleaner nozzle will lift objects when it gets closer to them.

The Venturi principle is why vacuum cleaners work to begin with.

Once you understand why a penny lifts in your simple experiment, you will understand why your conclusions are wrong.
 Quoting: Masiro®




Are you insane? Venturi principle is pressure changes of fluid flow through different diameters of pipe. Has nothing to due with why the penny is lifted.

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Penny lifts because the airflow from the pipe into the vacuum is strong enough to lift the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Exactly my point, the vacuum that lifts the penny is a lower pressure than the surrounding air.

But here's why your premise is wrong:

1) you have a leak at the bottom of your tube

2) said leak causes the rush of air into the tube

3) this rush of air causes the penny to rise by getting under it

4) the thicker air floats the penny towards the lower pressure (vacuum source)

5) proof of venturi principle in action...

If your glass tube is completely sealed and secure at the bottom the penny will never rise when the air is pumped out of the tube.
 Quoting: Masiro®


Who said there was a leak in the tube? Where is you simple experiment showing you theory? Anybody can do this at home. The penny lifts if you use a glass.
Balance242
Masiro®

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01/23/2019 07:41 AM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...


Read it again...

I underlined the important part for you.

A vacuum cleaner nozzle will lift objects when it gets closer to them.

The Venturi principle is why vacuum cleaners work to begin with.

Once you understand why a penny lifts in your simple experiment, you will understand why your conclusions are wrong.
 Quoting: Masiro®




Are you insane? Venturi principle is pressure changes of fluid flow through different diameters of pipe. Has nothing to due with why the penny is lifted.

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Penny lifts because the airflow from the pipe into the vacuum is strong enough to lift the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Exactly my point, the vacuum that lifts the penny is a lower pressure than the surrounding air.

But here's why your premise is wrong:

1) you have a leak at the bottom of your tube

2) said leak causes the rush of air into the tube

3) this rush of air causes the penny to rise by getting under it

4) the thicker air floats the penny towards the lower pressure (vacuum source)

5) proof of venturi principle in action...

If your glass tube is completely sealed and secure at the bottom the penny will never rise when the air is pumped out of the tube.
 Quoting: Masiro®


Who said there was a leak in the tube? Where is you simple experiment showing you theory? Anybody can do this at home. The penny lifts if you use a glass.
 Quoting: Balance242


I just proved by deduction that there is a leak at the bottom of your tube.

Simple experiment:

1) pour water on a flat surface

2) place your tube on the water

3) start pumping the air out of your tube

4) watch the water rise inside the tube

5) as the water rises it is sucked into the tube

your tube leaks at the bottom which caused the penny to rise in the first experiment...

Your data is flawed therefore your theory is flawed...
MaxTork

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01/23/2019 08:07 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Secondly, the initial evacuation, the airflow was strong enough to lift a penny against gravity, but there is no observable force on the scale.
 Quoting: Balance242


What type of scale were you using? How many decimal places of pounds or Kg did it display? The scale would absolutely show the removal of the weight of the penny and some reduction in air volume were it accurate enough.


Additionally, you also said a nozzle is not required for a rocket to work in a vacuum in your previous post. So what you are saying is irrelevant. Optimization only occurs when the initial theory is proven.
 Quoting: Balance242


I had no previous post. You mistook me for someone else. The nozzle is absolutely vital in the acceleration of the rocket.

I’m sensing here that you know these things already and are just trolling though.
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 08:23 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Secondly, the initial evacuation, the airflow was strong enough to lift a penny against gravity, but there is no observable force on the scale.
 Quoting: Balance242


What type of scale were you using? How many decimal places of pounds or Kg did it display? The scale would absolutely show the removal of the weight of the penny and some reduction in air volume were it accurate enough.


Additionally, you also said a nozzle is not required for a rocket to work in a vacuum in your previous post. So what you are saying is irrelevant. Optimization only occurs when the initial theory is proven.
 Quoting: Balance242


I had no previous post. You mistook me for someone else. The nozzle is absolutely vital in the acceleration of the rocket.

I’m sensing here that you know these things already and are just trolling though.
 Quoting: MaxTork


So you are saying that in order for rockets to work in space, they need to be equipped with the de Laval nozzle, otherwise rockets not equipped with this nozzle will not work in space?
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 08:24 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...




Are you insane? Venturi principle is pressure changes of fluid flow through different diameters of pipe. Has nothing to due with why the penny is lifted.

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Penny lifts because the airflow from the pipe into the vacuum is strong enough to lift the penny.
 Quoting: Balance242


Exactly my point, the vacuum that lifts the penny is a lower pressure than the surrounding air.

But here's why your premise is wrong:

1) you have a leak at the bottom of your tube

2) said leak causes the rush of air into the tube

3) this rush of air causes the penny to rise by getting under it

4) the thicker air floats the penny towards the lower pressure (vacuum source)

5) proof of venturi principle in action...

If your glass tube is completely sealed and secure at the bottom the penny will never rise when the air is pumped out of the tube.
 Quoting: Masiro®


Who said there was a leak in the tube? Where is you simple experiment showing you theory? Anybody can do this at home. The penny lifts if you use a glass.
 Quoting: Balance242


I just proved by deduction that there is a leak at the bottom of your tube.

Simple experiment:

1) pour water on a flat surface

2) place your tube on the water

3) start pumping the air out of your tube

4) watch the water rise inside the tube

5) as the water rises it is sucked into the tube

your tube leaks at the bottom which caused the penny to rise in the first experiment...

Your data is flawed therefore your theory is flawed...
 Quoting: Masiro®


No the bottom is completely sealed, I’ll make a video as soon as I get a chance.
Balance242
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01/23/2019 09:11 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Yes - did you engage your brain?

Are you telling me a pistol has no recoil in space?

A good example is if you fire a pistol in space. The pistol will still recoil because of the gases from the propellant pushing against the bullet.
 Quoting: (*)(*)


Did you even read the initial post?
 Quoting: Balance242
ParadoxicalExistence

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01/23/2019 10:34 AM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Secondly, the initial evacuation, the airflow was strong enough to lift a penny against gravity, but there is no observable force on the scale.
 Quoting: Balance242


What type of scale were you using? How many decimal places of pounds or Kg did it display? The scale would absolutely show the removal of the weight of the penny and some reduction in air volume were it accurate enough.


Additionally, you also said a nozzle is not required for a rocket to work in a vacuum in your previous post. So what you are saying is irrelevant. Optimization only occurs when the initial theory is proven.
 Quoting: Balance242


I had no previous post. You mistook me for someone else. The nozzle is absolutely vital in the acceleration of the rocket.

I’m sensing here that you know these things already and are just trolling though.
 Quoting: MaxTork


So you are saying that in order for rockets to work in space, they need to be equipped with the de Laval nozzle, otherwise rockets not equipped with this nozzle will not work in space?
 Quoting: Balance242


A nozzle is not required, but highly suggested. What a nozzle does is focus the gas in one direction.

If you just had a hole in a piece of metal with pressure escaping, you would have a wide arc of gases escaping. Gases that escape at a higher angle produce less thrust in the direction you would like to go. These gases escaping at a high angle waste most of their energy by simply counteracting the force of gases escaping in the opposite direction.

A nozzle focuses this wide arc into a smaller arc, producing more thrust in the desired direction.

Last Edited by ParadoxicalExistence on 01/23/2019 10:54 AM
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 12:27 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Secondly, the initial evacuation, the airflow was strong enough to lift a penny against gravity, but there is no observable force on the scale.
 Quoting: Balance242


What type of scale were you using? How many decimal places of pounds or Kg did it display? The scale would absolutely show the removal of the weight of the penny and some reduction in air volume were it accurate enough.


Additionally, you also said a nozzle is not required for a rocket to work in a vacuum in your previous post. So what you are saying is irrelevant. Optimization only occurs when the initial theory is proven.
 Quoting: Balance242


I had no previous post. You mistook me for someone else. The nozzle is absolutely vital in the acceleration of the rocket.

I’m sensing here that you know these things already and are just trolling though.
 Quoting: MaxTork


So you are saying that in order for rockets to work in space, they need to be equipped with the de Laval nozzle, otherwise rockets not equipped with this nozzle will not work in space?
 Quoting: Balance242


A nozzle is not required, but highly suggested. What a nozzle does is focus the gas in one direction.

If you just had a hole in a piece of metal with pressure escaping, you would have a wide arc of gases escaping. Gases that escape at a higher angle produce less thrust in the direction you would like to go. These gases escaping at a high angle waste most of their energy by simply counteracting the force of gases escaping in the opposite direction.

A nozzle focuses this wide arc into a smaller arc, producing more thrust in the desired direction.
 Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

So your argument is irrelevant to the pipe experiment. All you said was is nozzle helps, but it is not required.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 12:28 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Yes - did you engage your brain?

Are you telling me a pistol has no recoil in space?

A good example is if you fire a pistol in space. The pistol will still recoil because of the gases from the propellant pushing against the bullet.
 Quoting: (*)(*)


Did you even read the initial post?
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
Balance242
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01/23/2019 01:18 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 01:45 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


Prove it.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


If it’s just gun powder not encapsulated in something, then no it won’t produce thrust.
Balance242
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01/23/2019 02:03 PM

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


If it’s just gun powder not encapsulated in something, then no it won’t produce thrust.
 Quoting: Balance242


Why would the gunpowder have to be "encapsulated in something?" It's mass, it doesn't matter if it's one large piece of mass or many smaller pieces. So in your opinion, a gun firing blanks in a vacuum would have absolutely no recoil, but a bullet would? How about buckshot? It's still mass, but now it's a cluster of smaller pieces of mass. How about bird shot? How about progressively smaller and smaller individual pellets of mass? Now how about just tiny bits of soot and lots of gas? Will it still have any recoil? Yes it will. Newton's laws don't stop working just because you're spewing literal tons of gas instead of solid mass.
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ParadoxicalExistence

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01/23/2019 03:17 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...


What type of scale were you using? How many decimal places of pounds or Kg did it display? The scale would absolutely show the removal of the weight of the penny and some reduction in air volume were it accurate enough.


...


I had no previous post. You mistook me for someone else. The nozzle is absolutely vital in the acceleration of the rocket.

I’m sensing here that you know these things already and are just trolling though.
 Quoting: MaxTork


So you are saying that in order for rockets to work in space, they need to be equipped with the de Laval nozzle, otherwise rockets not equipped with this nozzle will not work in space?
 Quoting: Balance242


A nozzle is not required, but highly suggested. What a nozzle does is focus the gas in one direction.

If you just had a hole in a piece of metal with pressure escaping, you would have a wide arc of gases escaping. Gases that escape at a higher angle produce less thrust in the direction you would like to go. These gases escaping at a high angle waste most of their energy by simply counteracting the force of gases escaping in the opposite direction.

A nozzle focuses this wide arc into a smaller arc, producing more thrust in the desired direction.
 Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

So your argument is irrelevant to the pipe experiment. All you said was is nozzle helps, but it is not required.
 Quoting: Balance242


I'm not sure if pulling the air out via a pump would create thrust. If it does it would be so small that even the worlds most sensitive scales would have trouble measuring it.
ParadoxicalExistence

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01/23/2019 03:20 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


Prove it.
 Quoting: Balance242


It's a very simple concept man. Gas wants to expand it all directions, but is forced in one singular direction.

When it expands in all directions the thrust is directed in all directions. When its forced in one direction by an object, all the mass that would otherwise go in all directions pushes against the object until it escapes. Where it can then happily expand in all directions.
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 04:20 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Yes - did you engage your brain?

Are you telling me a pistol has no recoil in space?

...


Did you even read the initial post?
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242


Firing a bullet is totally equivalent. Not only is it equivalent, but it's like a constant controlled explosion just like a primer and the gunpowder explodes and propels the bullet...same aspect.
 Quoting: Chip


No it’s not. Pressure builds up between the gun chamber and bullet. Pressure pushes the bullet and gun. Like a compressed spring between two blocks. When the spring uncompresses, the spring pushes off both the blocks. A rocket is like a compressed spring attached to only one block. When the spring uncompressed, the spring only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 04:21 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
...


So you are saying that in order for rockets to work in space, they need to be equipped with the de Laval nozzle, otherwise rockets not equipped with this nozzle will not work in space?
 Quoting: Balance242


A nozzle is not required, but highly suggested. What a nozzle does is focus the gas in one direction.

If you just had a hole in a piece of metal with pressure escaping, you would have a wide arc of gases escaping. Gases that escape at a higher angle produce less thrust in the direction you would like to go. These gases escaping at a high angle waste most of their energy by simply counteracting the force of gases escaping in the opposite direction.

A nozzle focuses this wide arc into a smaller arc, producing more thrust in the desired direction.
 Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence

So your argument is irrelevant to the pipe experiment. All you said was is nozzle helps, but it is not required.
 Quoting: Balance242


I'm not sure if pulling the air out via a pump would create thrust. If it does it would be so small that even the worlds most sensitive scales would have trouble measuring it.
 Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence


If the airflow can lift a pennies, shouldn’t the opposite force be at least great then the normal force of the penny. This would be easily seen on the scale.
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 04:22 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
Firing a starting pistol in space will still generate recoil fuckwit.

No, I said firing a bullet is not equivalent to a rocket, however firing a blank is.
 Quoting: Balance242

 Quoting: (*)(*)


Prove it.
 Quoting: Balance242


It's a very simple concept man. Gas wants to expand it all directions, but is forced in one singular direction.

When it expands in all directions the thrust is directed in all directions. When its forced in one direction by an object, all the mass that would otherwise go in all directions pushes against the object until it escapes. Where it can then happily expand in all directions.
 Quoting: ParadoxicalExistence


So what happened in the pipe? Was the gas not pushing in all direction equally before applying the vacuum?
Balance242
Balance242  (OP)

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01/23/2019 04:38 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
No it’s not. Pressure builds up between the gun chamber and bullet. Pressure pushes the bullet and gun. Like a compressed spring between two blocks. When the spring uncompresses, the spring pushes off both the blocks. A rocket is like a compressed spring attached to only one block. When the spring uncompressed, the spring only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air.
 Quoting: Balance242


Matter to push off from is not necessary when there is an explosion. The explosion is what causes the object to propel. The controlled directional explosion moves the craft.
 Quoting: Chip


“An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases.”

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org (secure)]

Hot gases create high pressure. Therefore the movement is due to pressure differential.
Balance242
Frumpelstiltskin

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01/23/2019 04:39 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
No it’s not. Pressure builds up between the gun chamber and bullet. Pressure pushes the bullet and gun. Like a compressed spring between two blocks. When the spring uncompresses, the spring pushes off both the blocks. A rocket is like a compressed spring attached to only one block. When the spring uncompressed, the spring only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air.
 Quoting: Balance242


Matter to push off from is not necessary when there is an explosion. The explosion is what causes the object to propel. The controlled directional explosion moves the craft.
 Quoting: Chip


Yes, just think of the exhaust particles as tiny "bullets" if that helps your tiny mind grasp the concept.

It's not just "pressure", matter is being ejected from the rocket at high velocity.

Last Edited by Frumpelstiltskin on 01/23/2019 04:41 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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01/23/2019 04:46 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
I don't believe a single thing that's been published about space. And also, who cares? We have the Earth To worry about before we worry about trying to conquer space.
Dr. Deplorable AstromutModerator
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
I don't believe a single thing that's been published about space.
 Quoting: BremertonHardcorePunk


Well given that you couldn't tell the difference between a background star and an impact on the moon, maybe you're not the best person to judge what's published about space.
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Rudolph Embroglio

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01/23/2019 04:59 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
this makes sense, the rocket stages of space satellites are released usually around upper atmosphere

however, does pose a problem to all the space probes that supposedly have small engines to correct orbit...
Balance242  (OP)

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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
No it’s not. Pressure builds up between the gun chamber and bullet. Pressure pushes the bullet and gun. Like a compressed spring between two blocks. When the spring uncompresses, the spring pushes off both the blocks. A rocket is like a compressed spring attached to only one block. When the spring uncompressed, the spring only pushes the block as much as it pushes the air.
 Quoting: Balance242


Matter to push off from is not necessary when there is an explosion. The explosion is what causes the object to propel. The controlled directional explosion moves the craft.
 Quoting: Chip


Yes, just think of the exhaust particles as tiny "bullets" if that helps your tiny mind grasp the concept.

It's not just "pressure", matter is being ejected from the rocket at high velocity.
 Quoting: Frumpelstiltskin


So I should ignore science and believe you, who has provided no demonstrative proof?
Balance242
Dillmiester

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01/23/2019 05:13 PM
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Re: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel
He continually keeps avoiding giving any useful information about the test setup, even a simple picture that would expose the flaws in his experiment like the type of scale used which makes a huge difference if it isn't something like a precious metal scale, he only offers the fact that pennies weigh "approx 3 grams each".

The larger the scale usually the more innacurate it becomes when dealing with small weights.