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If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?

 
yesterdays dust

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


YOUR IF.....is not based on Bible.....

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word = LOGOS not Jesus


Amen is not Jesus.... amen means 'so be it'.....

LOGOS is the beginning........IT is the 'so be it'...verified in Gen. 1 when it is written.....

God said, 'let there be light' ...... let as in 'so be it' ....
 Quoting: yesterdays dust


Whose Jehovah?
 Quoting: DGN


The question 'who is Jehovah?' ..... assumes that we think at our lowest capability as men. Thinking at its lowest ability is a collection of fractured thoughts.... or individual things unrelated to each other and not part of a whole or ONE...... this is a collection of KNOWLEDGE.....which is BOTH useful for GOOD and EVIL.

The BIBLE is all about ONE being......and all words are always PLURAL....

The beginning speaks of GOD....ELOHIM.....(plural)....explained as US for simplification.

The Bible explains the progress of US from a dead image to a living being. For the knowledge collectors it uses WORD(s)/LOGOS to speak about US as the stories about Them...the actors in the story.

The Bible refers to the names of the activity of the Divine in this world as the names of God....to show US how we change from a dead image to a living being.

God as the WORD/LOGOS in the beginning is like US who develop our vocabulary of WORDs to build our world as we grow from babies.

HERE what for it..........

LORD/Jehovah is the 2nd reference to the activity of the DIVINE on/IN earth.

GOD/Elohim 'creates' everything with LOGOS/WORD. A bag full of fractured knowledge.

Jehovah/LORD 'FORMS' all LOGOS/Word(s) into an understanding of info useful in the maturing the creations of God (males and females) into mature MAN and WOMAN.

God/Elohim is plural .....Lord/Jehovah is plural.....describing the growth of US.

God created everything that degrades and dies.

Lord forms everything by killing everything.

more to the story!

Thus the need for JESUS to follow and CHRIST coming.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
because the bible was written by a bunch of men

and its nothing but a collection of stories based on half truth´s dont take very word literaly you will just end up forming some kind of cult out of it .
yesterdays dust

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
Did Jehovah create Jesus?
 Quoting: DGN


Thinking that God CREATES degradation and death of stuff.....we see LORD FORMS death as an art killing to honor God.

We see this often as the YOUNG think to degrade and oppose and accuse others to make our selves higher (don't work though).

Jesus showed US how to get better.....by NOT killing others ....rather to lay down our own life.

God to Lord ....then always written Lord God.

Lord to Jesus and written The LORD GOD JESUS.

Jesus represents the movement of knowledge to understanding to wisdom.

The Lord God Jesus Christ is TRUTH.

knowledge + understanding + wisdom = TRUTH

I am the TRUTH, the WAY (forward/upward/inward) and the LIFE.
TheLordsServant

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02/21/2019 11:36 AM

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
And you missed Isaiah 42:8

"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Your turn!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73752947

Easy.

Statement was made "pre-Jesus" - before Jesus was introduced to the world stage. Totally appropriate for that point in time.

It's also possible that since Jesus IS the Son OF God - that He had His own glory - but lost it temporarily while being born of a human on earth. Maybe the "Transfiguration" was the Father giving it back to Jesus for a few moments to show the difference between Him and Moses / Elijah.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Your obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The statement was not pre-Jesus. Hiw do we know this?

Jesus had Glory before the world was created.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So, your assertion that the statement was Pre-Jesus is as foolish as the rest of your assertions concerning who God really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72866157


dumbass

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.

Last Edited by TheLordsServant on 02/21/2019 11:51 AM
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
anonymous
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
Yes and there is another group of false wanna-bes that think they are "chosen" too. They however are reserved for the lake of fire.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Monogenes)

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To be distinguished from Monogenic (genetics), Monogenic system.
Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, only child, or only legitimate child, special child, and also on its own as a noun; o monogenēs "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]
The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However, Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: in the cosmology of Plato and in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).


Later uses in Christianity[edit]
a troparion, O Monogenes Yios, "Only Begotten Son," ascribed to Justinian I (527 - 565)
in Latin: Unigenitus, a papal bull issued by Pope Clement VI in 1343.


Isaiah 43…10“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me, no god was formed, and none will come after Me. 11I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. 12I alone decreed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God

reading this scripture I cannot accept the later use of the word Monogenes
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


"Let US make man in OUR image"....They, GOD have always been
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
Who's "twisting scripture"? You folks ignore scripture that doesn't match your doctrine.

We are not "belittling" God's Glory. God's Glory is His own. John 17:5 shows us that Jesus is ASKING the Father to "have His own glory RETURNED to Him (Jesus)".

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:22 reaffirms that Jesus had gotten His glory FROM THE Father.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;

What part of "Lamb OF God" is it that you folks can't understand?
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


TLS since you left this part out of your response I will ask again
this shows he had that glory with the father before the world was. How does it prove it was The Heavenly Fathers own?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70501380


You missed the above? John 17 5 & 22.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And you missed Isaiah 42:8

"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Your turn!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73752947


clappa

Great argument!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
Because Rome wrote most the Bible after they killed Christ by accident?
DGN  (OP)

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
Because Rome wrote most the Bible after they killed Christ by accident?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35676288


Uhhh... do you mean the Vatican?
dead2
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


"Let US make man in OUR image"....They, GOD have always been
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54242496


There you go, confusing them with big words like "US" and "OUR"

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


God's creating a family, of which Christ is the head according to scripture, and likewise there being salvation only through the atonement he achieved on sinful mankind's behalf, therefore He was the beginning of that creation (the church). Notice the text doesn't say Jesus was created, but that he was the beginning of the creation. This can be the only logical interpretation in light of other scriptures which indicate he eternally existed (Isaiah 9:6-7, Hebrews 7:3, Col. 1:17, etc ). Scripture must be reconciled to scripture to arrived at the actual intended meaning of any given verse.

Also, just for the record, the new world translation is not faithful to the textus receptus, aka the majority extant texts (which because of their multitude will illuminate changes when compared to altered texts) which can be historically traced back to the primitive church, and apostles themselves. As far as Bibles for english speaking people, the KJV alone (and those which preceded it such as the Geneva, Tyndale, etc.) is faithful.

Last Edited by Make Free Speech Great Again on 02/21/2019 10:34 PM
The real trick is to learn to think critically- ask more, and better questions- question every little detail. Who, what, when, where, why, and how? And how do these things relate to the facts I've already established, and observations made?
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
And you missed Isaiah 42:8

"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Your turn!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73752947

Easy.

Statement was made "pre-Jesus" - before Jesus was introduced to the world stage. Totally appropriate for that point in time.

It's also possible that since Jesus IS the Son OF God - that He had His own glory - but lost it temporarily while being born of a human on earth. Maybe the "Transfiguration" was the Father giving it back to Jesus for a few moments to show the difference between Him and Moses / Elijah.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Your obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The statement was not pre-Jesus. Hiw do we know this?

Jesus had Glory before the world was created.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So, your assertion that the statement was Pre-Jesus is as foolish as the rest of your assertions concerning who God really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72866157


dumbass

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And what part of the old testament scipture do you not understand, that God said he would not give his glory to another, while whoever Jesus was had that Glory pre human existence?

Either God was/Is a liar and GAVE his Glory to another, or you've missed who God is.
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
...

Easy.

Statement was made "pre-Jesus" - before Jesus was introduced to the world stage. Totally appropriate for that point in time.

It's also possible that since Jesus IS the Son OF God - that He had His own glory - but lost it temporarily while being born of a human on earth. Maybe the "Transfiguration" was the Father giving it back to Jesus for a few moments to show the difference between Him and Moses / Elijah.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Your obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The statement was not pre-Jesus. Hiw do we know this?

Jesus had Glory before the world was created.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So, your assertion that the statement was Pre-Jesus is as foolish as the rest of your assertions concerning who God really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72866157


dumbass

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And what part of the old testament scipture do you not understand, that God said he would not give his glory to another, while whoever Jesus was had that Glory pre human existence?

Either God was/Is a liar and GAVE his Glory to another, or you've missed who God is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575


Or Yeshua was God himself (manifest in the flesh) just like the angel of the Lord's host who appeared to Joshua and said the exact words as when He revealed Himself from the firey bush to Moses.. Go read Is. 9:6-7 by the way

Last Edited by Make Free Speech Great Again on 02/21/2019 10:37 PM
The real trick is to learn to think critically- ask more, and better questions- question every little detail. Who, what, when, where, why, and how? And how do these things relate to the facts I've already established, and observations made?
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


"Let US make man in OUR image"....They, GOD have always been
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54242496


There you go, confusing them with big words like "US" and "OUR"

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575

This level of thinking just ins't your style, sometimes the lesser we say the smarter we sound.
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


"Let US make man in OUR image"....They, GOD have always been
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54242496


There you go, confusing them with big words like "US" and "OUR"

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575

This level of thinking just ins't your style, sometimes the lesser we say the smarter we sound.
 Quoting: DGN


That is exactly what y'all teach. Here it is from your watchtower bible.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was a god

Now, you and TLS is the ones running your mouths on here perpetually saying God created Jesus in the beginning, before he came in the flesh.

Your bible denotes him as being a lesser "god" using a lower case g.

So I will say it again.

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
...


"Let US make man in OUR image"....They, GOD have always been
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54242496


There you go, confusing them with big words like "US" and "OUR"

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575

This level of thinking just ins't your style, sometimes the lesser we say the smarter we sound.
 Quoting: DGN


That is exactly what y'all teach. Here it is from your watchtower bible.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was a god

Now, you and TLS is the ones running your mouths on here perpetually saying God created Jesus in the beginning, before he came in the flesh.

Your bible denotes him as being a lesser "god" using a lower case g.

So I will say it again.

They will tell you God made himself a little boy god in Heaven. Then the big Daddy God told his little boy god, let us make man in our image.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575


0hsnapCAT
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
All this confusion because JW's can't understand the concept of Jesus veiling himself when he entered into creation. He is not just 100% God but also became 100% human in his incarnation.

Phillipians 2:5-11

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 8:58-59
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 15:26 Holy Spirit reference

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 1:1-

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.HE was with God in the beginning.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1:14
The Word became FLESH and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
~~John 1:18
'No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.'
~~1 Timothy 6:16. 
YHWH....
'who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see ..'
~~John 5:37
"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form"
~~1 John 4:12
"No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us"

So..based on the above scriptures, who was it exactly, that personally  showed up to Abraham as a MAN calling himself EL Shaddai, God ALMIGHTY, YHWH?
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
~ Gen. 18:2
The Holy name YHWH used.
(see Gen. 18:1 and verse 13)

YHWH physically, and personally spoke to Issac.
(Gen 26: 2, 24)

How about Jacob? Who was the 'MAN' who wrestled with him and changed his name?
Now, as for JACOB he had to have been exaggerating or lying when He claimed He wrestled with God, who appeared as a Man face to face to him physically.

“It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
~ Gen. 32: 30.
He personally saw HIM agian at Gen.35:1; 37:7; 35:9
Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
~ Gen. 48:3
According to the scriptures I quoted in the begining, Jacob had to be lying. No man has ever seen or heard The Father in heaven.(except The Son)

How about the strange case of Joshua?
-When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, A MAN was standing before him with a sword drawn in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”  And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so- ~ Joshua 5: 13-15

What kind of MAN would expect someone not only to worship him, but also asked him to take off his sandals while doing so?
Definately NOT any of the angelic host, thats forsure!

Maybe this was the same being who came to Moses?

'The Angel of The LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.'
~ Exodus 3:2,3

'Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”'
~ Exodus 3:5

Who was it ? According to your Greek scriptures, it could not be the Father Jehovah.

What if it was really 'the Word', the Logos, the pre-incarnate Messiah that the patriarchs and prophets heard and saw?
The LOGOS:
'who is the image of the invisible God, preeminent over all creation.'
~ Col. 1:15.

In Eden, Sin separated us, along with the entire planet, from our Holy God.
From that very moment on the Logos has mediated on behalf of our God in heaven. Not only did the Logos do this by using the Holy name YHWH, but also speaking as Him, and appearing as the form of Him before mankind.
It seems very fitting that the Logos would later become flesh and dwell among us, after all he had been the one personally dealing with mankind for over 4000 years at that point.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!"
~ Matt 23:37

**Jesus said this from first- hand personal experience. The sadness he felt was because it was himself who had been trying to protect Isreal throughout her history.**
The Messiah was fully aware that he was the Logos of God while flesh.
Thats why He so strongly wept for Jerusalem...He had been the ONE appearing to her durring her entire existence.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”  So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 
So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.'
~~John8:59,60

The LOGOS, who became flesh, tried to emplore to the Scribes and Pharisees that from the very beginning it was actually HIMSELF that had appeared to their fathers: in the burning bush as YHWH, the pillar of fire/ smoke before Isreal in the desert wanderings, also the one who came before Moses, spoke and gave the Ten Commandments to them and who spoke to Moses face to face in the Tabernacle of Meeting for the rest of the law.
He has been the One dealing with sinful man since Eden. It was HIM whom cut- covenant with Abram, and whom their fore-fathers had been seeing, hearing , and worshipping all along..

**The point is...that Jesus did not claim to be God, the Father, but what he did claim, and rightfully so, was that he was the IMAGE of YHWH, the SPOKEN WORD of YHWH, the I AM, of the OT, the ACTIVE FORCE of YHWH,  having HIS appearance and bearing in himself HIS name from the begining of mankind's history.
The LOGOS, before becoming flesh, always appeared in the name of his Father in a most literally way!

God is spirit and HE is HOLY.
No man may, or has ever, approached HIM or heard Him, He is invisible and His glory destroys anything that has SIN. HE, the Father, remains in His Holy Habitation, the Heavenly Sanctuary above. We were cut- off from His presence the day that sin marred this entire planet in Eden.

“The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.”
-Psalm 33:13,14

He cannot approach, not with out fully destroying us and the Earth, because SIN has permeated everything**

**But the LOGOS can approach and He did!**

God the Father has not left His habitation above, but one day soon,  God will leave His place and execute judgement and this place will be 'burnt up' by the approaching of His glory.

"For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain."
~ Isaiah 26:21

**But Then agian, it may be THE MAN, Jesus, who shows up as YHWH not only bearing His name, as usual, but also bearing ALL of His GLORY..
Maybe, just maybe, this time around The Jews and JW's will recognize the Messiah for whom he really is.... the Old Testament God who was called by men, YHWH.**
Interested Reader 1
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 77396428
United States
02/21/2019 11:47 PM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
The bible says Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created so He could not be created.
 Quoting: Neenerner


Amen...

Op... You can argue and reason until you are blue in the face.

The best thing though... is to ask Jesus Himself... the question that you posed.

I myself don't know of any bible verse that says that Jesus is God's first creation.... There is none.

But go ahead and ask God and/or Jesus. ... Get it right from the Source.

banana
DGN  (OP)

User ID: 76673672
United States
02/22/2019 12:22 AM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
The bible says Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created so He could not be created.
 Quoting: Neenerner


Amen...

Op... You can argue and reason until you are blue in the face.

The best thing though... is to ask Jesus Himself... the question that you posed.

I myself don't know of any bible verse that says that Jesus is God's first creation.... There is none.

But go ahead and ask God and/or Jesus. ... Get it right from the Source.

banana
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77396428


No need that was explained 2000 year ago, to whom it may concern;
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead," Col1;13
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 70501380
United States
02/22/2019 09:50 AM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
The bible says Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created so He could not be created.
 Quoting: Neenerner


Amen...

Op... You can argue and reason until you are blue in the face.

The best thing though... is to ask Jesus Himself... the question that you posed.

I myself don't know of any bible verse that says that Jesus is God's first creation.... There is none.

But go ahead and ask God and/or Jesus. ... Get it right from the Source.

banana
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77396428


No need that was explained 2000 year ago, to whom it may concern;
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead," Col1;13
 Quoting: DGN


Yes it was explained 2000 years ago, but your translation misleads. try some of the older translations

13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.……16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

firstborn of creation and firstborn over all creation are not the same meaning
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 70501380
United States
02/22/2019 10:04 AM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 1cor 44-46
TheLordsServant

User ID: 77397514
United States
02/22/2019 11:03 AM

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


God's creating a family, of which Christ is the head according to scripture, and likewise there being salvation only through the atonement he achieved on sinful mankind's behalf, therefore He was the beginning of that creation (the church). Notice the text doesn't say Jesus was created, but that he was the beginning of the creation. This can be the only logical interpretation in light of other scriptures which indicate he eternally existed (Isaiah 9:6-7, Hebrews 7:3, Col. 1:17, etc ). Scripture must be reconciled to scripture to arrived at the actual intended meaning of any given verse.

Also, just for the record, the new world translation is not faithful to the textus receptus, aka the majority extant texts (which because of their multitude will illuminate changes when compared to altered texts) which can be historically traced back to the primitive church, and apostles themselves. As far as Bibles for english speaking people, the KJV alone (and those which preceded it such as the Geneva, Tyndale, etc.) is faithful.
 Quoting: Make Free Speech Great Again


Textus Receptus is supported by trinitarians. There are older manuscripts that refute several verses of TR.

Look up the history of these verses...

Matthew 28:19
1 John 5:7
1 Timothy 3:16
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Colossians 2:9

Those verses and many others have been tampered with since the original authors wrote their "books".

The Apostles didn't teach a trinity.
Jesus claimed One God - the Father.
Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are claimed to be equal to the Father.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 77381054
Israel
02/22/2019 11:08 AM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
" These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:" Rv3:14
 Quoting: DGN


Is this a quote from the 3nd revision of the 3596 bible? its really hard to tell with so many versions and so many ignorant followers
TheLordsServant

User ID: 77397514
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02/22/2019 11:10 AM

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
...


Your obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The statement was not pre-Jesus. Hiw do we know this?

Jesus had Glory before the world was created.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

So, your assertion that the statement was Pre-Jesus is as foolish as the rest of your assertions concerning who God really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72866157

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And what part of the old testament scipture do you not understand, that God said he would not give his glory to another, while whoever Jesus was had that Glory pre human existence?

Either God was/Is a liar and GAVE his Glory to another, or you've missed who God is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575


Or Yeshua was God himself (manifest in the flesh) just like the angel of the Lord's host who appeared to Joshua and said the exact words as when He revealed Himself from the firey bush to Moses.. Go read Is. 9:6-7 by the way
 Quoting: Make Free Speech Great Again

Or Jesus, as the only-begotten Son OF God...naturally had glory.

The use of the phrase Son OF God destroys the "Jesus is God Himself" false doctrine.

Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God Himself.

"The Father"..."MY Father"..."FATHER"..."your Father"

-------------------------------------------

The word "Father" occurs 250 times in 212 verses in Matthew thru John in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Of those 250 times, there are 224 verses where either Jesus or the Apostles refer to the "Father" - God.
-----------------------------------------

The phrase "my Father" occurs 56 times in 53 verses, all in the 4 Gospels & Revelation in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
------------------------------------------

The phrase "the Father" occurs 143 times in 125 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Jesus uses the phrase "the Father" 59 times
The Apostles use it another 50 times
----------------------------------------

The phrase "our Father" 19 verses in the KJV

The phrase "your Father" 15 verses in the 4 Gospels

The phrase "thy Father" 3 verses in Matthew

The phrase "heavenly Father" 6 verses in the 4 Gospels

Jesus uses just the word "Father" 19 verses in the 4 Gospels

----------------------------------------
Jesus states that He was "SENT" 47 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "Son of God" is used 28 times in the 4 Gospels
The phrase "Son of God" is used 19 times in Acts thru Revelation

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of God" (NOT "MY kingdom") is used 54 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times - NOT "MY kingdom" - (ALL in Matthew)

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 77381054
Israel
02/22/2019 11:16 AM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
...

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And what part of the old testament scipture do you not understand, that God said he would not give his glory to another, while whoever Jesus was had that Glory pre human existence?

Either God was/Is a liar and GAVE his Glory to another, or you've missed who God is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575


Or Yeshua was God himself (manifest in the flesh) just like the angel of the Lord's host who appeared to Joshua and said the exact words as when He revealed Himself from the firey bush to Moses.. Go read Is. 9:6-7 by the way
 Quoting: Make Free Speech Great Again

Or Jesus, as the only-begotten Son OF God...naturally had glory.

The use of the phrase Son OF God destroys the "Jesus is God Himself" false doctrine.

Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God Himself.

"The Father"..."MY Father"..."FATHER"..."your Father"

-------------------------------------------

The word "Father" occurs 250 times in 212 verses in Matthew thru John in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Of those 250 times, there are 224 verses where either Jesus or the Apostles refer to the "Father" - God.
-----------------------------------------

The phrase "my Father" occurs 56 times in 53 verses, all in the 4 Gospels & Revelation in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
------------------------------------------

The phrase "the Father" occurs 143 times in 125 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Jesus uses the phrase "the Father" 59 times
The Apostles use it another 50 times
----------------------------------------

The phrase "our Father" 19 verses in the KJV

The phrase "your Father" 15 verses in the 4 Gospels

The phrase "thy Father" 3 verses in Matthew

The phrase "heavenly Father" 6 verses in the 4 Gospels

Jesus uses just the word "Father" 19 verses in the 4 Gospels

----------------------------------------
Jesus states that He was "SENT" 47 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "Son of God" is used 28 times in the 4 Gospels
The phrase "Son of God" is used 19 times in Acts thru Revelation

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of God" (NOT "MY kingdom") is used 54 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times - NOT "MY kingdom" - (ALL in Matthew)

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


The correct word is "Elohim" which translates to "these are they" (elo - hem), or as some other claims to plural form of the word god.

If there is only one god then why are THEY written in plural
form in your bible? and how come u bible follower who are so educated about your dearest book missed that? what else did u miss?
TheLordsServant

User ID: 77397514
United States
02/22/2019 11:22 AM

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
No need that was explained 2000 year ago, to whom it may concern;
"He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead," Col1;13
 Quoting: DGN


Yes it was explained 2000 years ago, but your translation misleads. try some of the older translations

13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.……16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

firstborn of creation and firstborn over all creation are not the same meaning
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70501380

Says who? "firstborn" is exactly that.
Jesus said explicitely that He is the Son OF God. Does Paul know Jesus better than Jesus does Himself?

Exodus - "let US make man in OUR image".
Jesus was WITH the Father during creation.

John 5:19 Jesus learned by watching the Father

Jesus is "firstborn of the dead".
God CANNOT die. Jesus died.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
TheLordsServant

User ID: 77397514
United States
02/22/2019 11:24 AM

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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
The correct word is "Elohim" which translates to "these are they" (elo - hem), or as some other claims to plural form of the word god.

If there is only one god then why are THEY written in plural
form in your bible? and how come u bible follower who are so educated about your dearest book missed that? what else did u miss?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77381054


Exodus - "let US make man in OUR image".
Jesus was WITH the Father during creation.
I am but a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 77177475
United States
02/22/2019 01:36 PM
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Re: If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?
...

During the Old Testament, only the Father knew who Jesus was. What part of "before Jesus was introduced to the world stage." is it that you don't understand?

What part of John 3:16 is it that you can't comprehend?

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus is the Son OF God. Period.
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


And what part of the old testament scipture do you not understand, that God said he would not give his glory to another, while whoever Jesus was had that Glory pre human existence?

Either God was/Is a liar and GAVE his Glory to another, or you've missed who God is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76945575


Or Yeshua was God himself (manifest in the flesh) just like the angel of the Lord's host who appeared to Joshua and said the exact words as when He revealed Himself from the firey bush to Moses.. Go read Is. 9:6-7 by the way
 Quoting: Make Free Speech Great Again

Or Jesus, as the only-begotten Son OF God...naturally had glory.

The use of the phrase Son OF God destroys the "Jesus is God Himself" false doctrine.

Yeshua NEVER claimed to be God Himself.

"The Father"..."MY Father"..."FATHER"..."your Father"

-------------------------------------------

The word "Father" occurs 250 times in 212 verses in Matthew thru John in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Of those 250 times, there are 224 verses where either Jesus or the Apostles refer to the "Father" - God.
-----------------------------------------

The phrase "my Father" occurs 56 times in 53 verses, all in the 4 Gospels & Revelation in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
------------------------------------------

The phrase "the Father" occurs 143 times in 125 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Jesus uses the phrase "the Father" 59 times
The Apostles use it another 50 times
----------------------------------------

The phrase "our Father" 19 verses in the KJV

The phrase "your Father" 15 verses in the 4 Gospels

The phrase "thy Father" 3 verses in Matthew

The phrase "heavenly Father" 6 verses in the 4 Gospels

Jesus uses just the word "Father" 19 verses in the 4 Gospels

----------------------------------------
Jesus states that He was "SENT" 47 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "Son of God" is used 28 times in the 4 Gospels
The phrase "Son of God" is used 19 times in Acts thru Revelation

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of God" (NOT "MY kingdom") is used 54 times in the 4 Gospels

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

----------------------------------------

The phrase "kingdom of heaven" 32 times - NOT "MY kingdom" - (ALL in Matthew)

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]
 Quoting: TheLordsServant


Wrong. Him being the Son of God does not negate him being God. Who am I kidding don't take my word for it. Let's look at scripture.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.