If Jesus was with God and was God in the beginning why does the bible say he is God's first creation?

Dan 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Michael is one of the chief rulers, a archangel, a created being - YESHUA is the mono genes of God

Mono - sole, only

Genes - Of a kind

unique

The Only begotten Son

not one of the angels


For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:5

This is a rhetorical question: Answer: none of them!!!


But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIM, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

You are right, there is no rank equal to Jesus. He sits enthroned as the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

He has no equal, no rival, nor beginning or end. He is from everlasting to everlasting. The Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father, Wonderful, Counselor!

Michael is NOT Jesus.

Jesus is God's only begotten. Everything in creation was created through the person of Jesus by God Almighty so that He is the forefront of all things.

I bet when you finally stand before the pearly gates, somebody's gonna yell, "Oh God, not THAT guy!"

Right Jehovah created Jesus and delegated creating everything else to him.
"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;

Last Edited by DGN on 02/15/2019 12:12 PM

Thread: Son of God - Jesus' Relationship To The Father - John 17 and More - Bible Study

Try following Jesus instead of just Paul.

Jesus said all of these...

...the Father is GREATER than I. John 14:28
...I do ONLY the Father's Will. Matthew 7:21
...I PRAY to the Father. Matthew 26:36-42, Mark 14:32-39 & John 17
...I say what the Father has said. John 12:49-50
...I learned / do as the Father has showed me. John 5:19
...I give THANKS to the Father. John 11:41
...I don't KNOW when I will return...ONLY the Father KNOWS. Matthew 24:36
...I tell you to ask the Father in MY name. John 14:13
...I go to sit at the Father's right hand. Matthew 26:64
...I ASCEND to the Father, MY GOD and YOUR GOD. John 20:17
...the Father has given me authority. Matthew 28:18
...only the Father is good.. Luke 18:19

One at a time, the argument that the lord's servant is making, is that because

YESHUA Said

The Father is Greater than I, that makes Him inferior in nature to the Father, a lessor being.

By that same reasoning

He who prophesies is a super-human, whereas those that don't are inferior in nature, not equal!!!

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the Congregation may receive edifying. 1 Corinthians 14:5

Equals, but positionally one is Greater

Yeshua had laid-aside His authority at this time, positionally the Father was Greater, but not better!!!

Greater is used for Authority, area of influence, Better denotes nature, and the scriptures do not say, The Father is better than the Son

but it does say, the Son is better than the Angels has a higher nature, since He is God.

The rightful heir of all things, since everything was made by Him and for Him


Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they. Hebrews 1:5

#1 argument refuted, next

I do ONLY the Father's Will. Matthew 7:21

Last Edited by SonOfZion on 02/15/2019 12:51 PM

"Firstborn of creation".

You can't weasel your way around that.

Jesus IS better than angels BECAUSE He is the Son OF God.

"son of God" occurs 47 times in 46 verses in the New Testament in the KJV

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God.

Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Because I and the God are also ONE.

But it is not like saying I AM GOD!.

Get it, Jehovahtard?.

The trouble with Jehovah believer is that they are also reborn again Jews and mankind.

And Jehovah is also one of Creator beings like Allah who is in charge of Mankind.

You can call God "Charlie" if you like.

I'll consider myself briefed.

John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.

That's nice that there are Jehovah's Witnesses on this website promoting Jehovah's Witness doctrine and stupidity.

My entire life was destroyed by being a Jehovah's witness born and raised until almost 30 years old. But, damage was already done.

Their theology was closer to the truth in its very early stages with Charles T. Russel being it's founder. But, after Russell died, the theology just got more stupid and stupid and even stupider.

Anyone who is a Jehovah's Witness are not in touch with reality. It is a deceptive blindness to say the least.

But, as I have pointed out in other comments, there is a much greater threat and problem to us.

That is the conquest of the universe by the dark powers.

You need to change the thread title, the bible does not say that Jesus was God's first creation. It says "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation"Col.1:15 The word translated as firstborn is the Greek prototokos. That word can mean someone who is the actual first born, it can also mean someone who is preeminent in rank, or even both firstborn and preeminent in rank.In regards to David, God said "I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth" Psalm 29:87 even though David was the youngest son. The meaning of "Firstborn" depends on the context. The continuation from Col.1:15 is of course "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together" (Colossians 1:16,17).

That right, they are heretic. You all should recoiled from them.

Avoid a man who is a heretic, after the first and second correction,

knowing that one who is like this has been subverted, and that he offends; for he has been condemned by his own judgment. - Titus 3:10-11

And, in actuality, Both, the Christian doctrine of the trinity and the Jehovah's Witness doctrine of the firstborn of creation are both falsehoods. So, you are both wrong.

Jesus was an ascended Master and healer. The new age theology does teach that. And it is true, but, Jesus himself is responsible for this confusion between Christian teachings and new age teachings, because Jesus has professed to be both.

No wonder there is great confusion regarding the identity of Jesus Christ.

just because he is the beginning of creation doesn't mean he was created

others have shown here with scripture how he WAS before creation

2 keys to understanding. 1 what he was? 2 what he is?



John said he WAS (past tense) the WORD! if he WAS(past tense) GOD or a God is a diff subject. We should all agree he was the WORD with GOD


Jesus himself said in John chapter 8 that he was the Light of the world


Do we have a place in scripture where the 2 intersect,or what are the first 2 instances we see GOD Speaking(His WORD) and Light

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

so his spoken WORD became the light of the world

John 8:12 12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

light of life?

prov2027The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching out his inmost being.

mat621For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your vision is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter.

Did Adam follow that light that was within him?
Did he lose that light at the moment of sin or did he lose the active force(HOLY SPIRIT)?

3So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”

Did these men have the active force in there life?
Did Noah have the active force?

Hebrews 13:5 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."
Deuteronomy 31:8 8The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."
Joshua 1:5 5No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Is it the Father,his son,or the active force that will never leave us?

I do not know too much about the leadership of Jehovahs Witnesses, but I do have respect for many of their followers, as they are genuine in what they believe in, even if I disagree with them when they say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Jesus Is the creator, IE. God.

Note kjv translation - no "other" as in the false translation.


All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. -John 1:3

..shared via Bible KJV [link to b.sonof.me]


If Jesus created EVERYTHING He can't be created.

Very simply. Case closed.

Laughable.

We all know that Lord Jesus is the Bright Morning Star.

And Archangels are Morning Star.

But to you it Lucifer.

Protestants & Jehovah,

Are also RCC Schism.

Well I do know about JWs and have been totally destroyed by their brainwashing with permanent repercussions.

I will say to any JW that you are mind-con trolled on a very high level. I know things about the Watchtower society that you wouldn't believe me if I told you, because you are totally brainwashed and can no t see past the veils they have over your eyes.

JWs is the cult and epitome of stupidity!

2 Peter 1:19
We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

I agreed.

I used to quote the bible verses that you quote and knew the teachings better than anyone in the so-called theocratic organization, and partook of the emblems, and was visited by Fred Franz ( the president of the Watchtower at that time) when I was nearly dying one time.

So, don't quote to me any of tbeir bible verses taken out of context and that misconstrue the ancient Hebrew and Greek to support their doctrines and dogmas.

You do not have the word of the prophets on your side, you have the teachings of idiots and deceived fools, as well as conscious devil worshipping child sacrificers to Molech in your organization.

One time, one of the high up people in the organization put child-sacrificed blood right into the huge printing press machines at Bethel, right under the nose of one of the operators. The operator said what was that you put into the ink? Your not supposed to touch the machine. The brother answered and said: "its red ink. It will help the print quality". And be walked away.

I think you need to go back and read what I have posted and you will see I don't support the JW belief about who Jesus is or was and the last scripture I posted was in reference to the bright morning star in our hearts and the lamp shining in dark places. as Who the Christ Is,Was

OK, my bad, sorry.

This Light of gen 1:3? it is worded different than all other creation mentioned in gen chapter 1 it is just spoke into being! look at the rest of creation the firmament was made, the water under was divided, the earth brought forth the seed, etc, he made the 2 great lights and the stars also, the waters were used to make the fowl and sea life, the earth was used to make the rest. the Light of gen 1:3 was brought into existence with the first word recorded in scripture- And GOD Said


if create (brought into existence) applies here what substance was he brought into existence from? since scripture states nothing was created that wasn't by him


He comes from the Father only and the Father has always existed.


Gods Word is it eternal? He WAS that WORD

Who did Jesus say is God, himself or his Father?
"Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Jo17;3