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Challenging the Christians on this board

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:01 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
adam and eve were created perfect
the lie in essence
was that they were not perfect
and had to do something to perfect themselves
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 03:17 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
adam and eve were created perfect
the lie in essence
was that they were not perfect
and had to do something to perfect themselves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


If Adam and eve were perfect, then how is it they could sin?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:20 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
because they were perfectly free
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:25 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Listen to your heart and you'll know the truth. It's your conscience telling you not to do something that is wrong. It is the resonance you feel in your heart when you know something is true and the weird feeling you get when you know someone is dealing you BS. It is the appreciation of beauty and the aversion to ugliness. All felt in the heart. Love is the continuous expression of truth (which is felt at discreet moments) and is thus the culmination of our lives on this plane. When we pass, we will be engulfed by truth and love (thus God is truth and love).

The lie is believing that we can decide what is right or wrong, good or bad without listening to our heart. All bad and the fall of man comes from this lie. We have the free will to listen to our conscience and to discern the truth with our hearts or not to.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 03:26 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
because they were perfectly free
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Can God sin?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 03:36 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Listen to your heart and you'll know the truth. It's your conscience telling you not to do something that is wrong. It is the resonance you feel in your heart when you know something is true and the weird feeling you get when you know someone is dealing you BS. It is the appreciation of beauty and the aversion to ugliness. All felt in the heart. Love is the continuous expression of truth (which is felt at discreet moments) and is thus the culmination of our lives on this plane. When we pass, we will be engulfed by truth and love (thus God is truth and love).

The lie is believing that we can decide what is right or wrong, good or bad without listening to our heart. All bad and the fall of man comes from this lie. We have the free will to listen to our conscience and to discern the truth with our hearts or not to.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375


So would you agree that your perception of what truth is, is dependant upon man possessing the knowledge of good and evil. Or in other words the knowledge of good and evil is how we obtain truth?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:41 PM
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because they were perfectly free


Can God sin?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

sin is defined by what God would not do

so, how could God sin?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:41 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Listen to your heart and you'll know the truth. It's your conscience telling you not to do something that is wrong. It is the resonance you feel in your heart when you know something is true and the weird feeling you get when you know someone is dealing you BS. It is the appreciation of beauty and the aversion to ugliness. All felt in the heart. Love is the continuous expression of truth (which is felt at discreet moments) and is thus the culmination of our lives on this plane. When we pass, we will be engulfed by truth and love (thus God is truth and love).

The lie is believing that we can decide what is right or wrong, good or bad without listening to our heart. All bad and the fall of man comes from this lie. We have the free will to listen to our conscience and to discern the truth with our hearts or not to.


So would you agree that your perception of what truth is, is dependant upon man possessing the knowledge of good and evil. Or in other words the knowledge of good and evil is how we obtain truth?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

no
good and evil is not truth
truth is reality
and evil is unreality
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:44 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Listen to your heart and you'll know the truth. It's your conscience telling you not to do something that is wrong. It is the resonance you feel in your heart when you know something is true and the weird feeling you get when you know someone is dealing you BS. It is the appreciation of beauty and the aversion to ugliness. All felt in the heart. Love is the continuous expression of truth (which is felt at discreet moments) and is thus the culmination of our lives on this plane. When we pass, we will be engulfed by truth and love (thus God is truth and love).

The lie is believing that we can decide what is right or wrong, good or bad without listening to our heart. All bad and the fall of man comes from this lie. We have the free will to listen to our conscience and to discern the truth with our hearts or not to.


So would you agree that your perception of what truth is, is dependant upon man possessing the knowledge of good and evil. Or in other words the knowledge of good and evil is how we obtain truth?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930


No, we could have happily lived engulfed in truth knowing that God was great etc. However Satan was jealous that God created us in his image and together with some other jealous angels went against the will of God to create his own kingdom in the material plane. By choosing to think that we can decide what is right or wrong independent of God (conscience, discernment of truth through the heart), we are following the lie initially used to entice us.

If a person goes through life listening to and following their heart they know what truth is. Unfortunately they would probably end up homeless or worse.

It was entirely unnecessary that we had to have the knowledge of good and evil, but it is the central theme of our efforts toward salvation through the death of Christ (who always followed the will of his father).
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:53 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we don't make effort to salvation
it is a free gift
that we receive
i agree that knowing evil was not necessary
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:54 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
What exactly is the 'truth' that Jesus claimed to be, and that we would also know that would set us free?

and on the flip side


What is the 'lie' that satan/devil fathered from the beginning?

bear in mind that the 'truth' and the 'lie' will be in contrast to each other, and at opposite ends of the spectrum.
 Quoting: friendofGod


The truth is that satan, although the word does not accurately encompass the whole of its meaning, is REAL.

The lie would be that satan is not real.

Now, in who's favor do you think it would be to have the MASSES of people believe that satan, or variations of, is not real?

The fact of the matter is that evil is here on earth as we speak, and for the most part it is in control. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how negatively earth is being effected right now, but I wouldn't suggest asking the mainstream media either.

Again, it all comes down to duality. If you chose to believe that the soul does not have a dual nature, and is completely out of order with everything else upon this earth, then that is your choice. The message of God is that the soul does in fact have a dual nature and it is up to you to choose which side it favors.

Does it not feel good, for some people, if they offer a hand to someone who is in desperate need? Yet, does it not feel good, again to some people, to verbally put someone down whenever an opportunity arises? Or physically for that matter. This is the dual nature of the soul, the source of all pleasure, or one's desire.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:56 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we don't make effort to salvation
it is a free gift
that we receive
i agree that knowing evil was not necessary
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


I believe that Christ will judge us based on our acceptance or rejection of truth through the heart. As he said, "you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (conscience) will not be forgiven".

I don't think it is a free pass, but certainly it is a gift.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:56 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
satan is not real
since he rejected his created being as lucifer
he became unreal
of course he has some form of existance
but, it is not his created being
it is the uncreated monster which he became
so, unreal
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 186930
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06/10/2007 03:57 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Listen to your heart and you'll know the truth. It's your conscience telling you not to do something that is wrong. It is the resonance you feel in your heart when you know something is true and the weird feeling you get when you know someone is dealing you BS. It is the appreciation of beauty and the aversion to ugliness. All felt in the heart. Love is the continuous expression of truth (which is felt at discreet moments) and is thus the culmination of our lives on this plane. When we pass, we will be engulfed by truth and love (thus God is truth and love).

The lie is believing that we can decide what is right or wrong, good or bad without listening to our heart. All bad and the fall of man comes from this lie. We have the free will to listen to our conscience and to discern the truth with our hearts or not to.


So would you agree that your perception of what truth is, is dependant upon man possessing the knowledge of good and evil. Or in other words the knowledge of good and evil is how we obtain truth?


No, we could have happily lived engulfed in truth knowing that God was great etc. However Satan was jealous that God created us in his image and together with some other jealous angels went against the will of God to create his own kingdom in the material plane. By choosing to think that we can decide what is right or wrong independent of God (conscience, discernment of truth through the heart), we are following the lie initially used to entice us.

If a person goes through life listening to and following their heart they know what truth is. Unfortunately they would probably end up homeless or worse.

It was entirely unnecessary that we had to have the knowledge of good and evil, but it is the central theme of our efforts toward salvation through the death of Christ (who always followed the will of his father).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375


So then are you saying that even though death came through the knowledge of good and evil, and God was insistant that man not partake in it...God now uses this same measure to bring life to mankind?

because I would have to disagree the curse that is on that tree is ever upon that tree, and it is the tree of life that must be partaken of in order for life to come. God said that the tree of life must be sheltered from Adam and Eve because if they ate from it after they disobeyed then they would obtain life.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:57 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we don't make effort to salvation
it is a free gift
that we receive
i agree that knowing evil was not necessary


I believe that Christ will judge us based on our acceptance or rejection of truth through the heart. As he said, "you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (conscience) will not be forgiven".

I don't think it is a free pass, but certainly it is a gift.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

our conscience is not the HOly Spirit
we have all gone against our own conscience
because that is what sin is

you need to refine your teaching a little bit
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 03:59 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
the gospel is being delivered from the curse of the knowlege of good and evil
it was always a curse to know evil
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 04:03 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
because they were perfectly free


Can God sin?

sin is defined by what God would not do

so, how could God sin?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


So God cannot sin, but not because He is perfect, but because he makes up the rules?? The scriptures say God does not change, so therefore He has an established truth that has no darkness at all. God cannot sin. But yet man who you say was made perfect in His image can sin... How? If God is not free to sin and man is made perfect in His image then wouldn't it stand to reason that man could also not sin?? Or is there something more to what is said of man being made in the image of God that is overlooked?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:03 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
So then are you saying that even though death came through the knowledge of good and evil, and God was insistant that man not partake in it...God now uses this same measure to bring life to mankind?

because I would have to disagree the curse that is on that tree is ever upon that tree, and it is the tree of life that must be partaken of in order for life to come. God said that the tree of life must be sheltered from Adam and Eve because if they ate from it after they disobeyed then they would obtain life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930


He so loved us that he gave his only begotten son to die for us.

The mystery of salvation is that even though Satan can point out our sins when we stand in judgement and say we don't deserve to dwell with God, the fact that Christ says let him/her pass into the kingdom of heaven is good enough to override Satan's claim.

It's the universal laws of justice, because Christ's innocent blood was shed by Satan, the mere fact that he says it's ok for us to get to heaven, allows sinful man to dwell with God. Satan has no say on what Christ decides. This is the mystery of salvation that the world is in the process of trying to shoot down.
redsavage

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06/10/2007 04:04 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
just a question!
if all people were concieved from adam and eve,and the jewish nation,why are we not jewish,instead we are goyim?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:04 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we have a conscience
even when our spirit is inactive
this is why we can sin
because innately
we know when we are sinned against
so, if we do these things to others
our own conscience convicts us

the Holy Spirit
works by animating our own spirit
and bringing life to our inner man

if we blaspheme the spirit of God
and call it evil
that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

if the Holy Spirit convicts us
that we are not connected to God
and need to be cleansed and forgiven
and we say that we don't need to be cleansed
and forgiven
we cannot receive the free gift
of forgiveness

so, in order to be forgiven
we must yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit
repent, and ask God to forgive and cleanse us
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:04 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we don't make effort to salvation
it is a free gift
that we receive
i agree that knowing evil was not necessary


I believe that Christ will judge us based on our acceptance or rejection of truth through the heart. As he said, "you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (conscience) will not be forgiven".

I don't think it is a free pass, but certainly it is a gift.

our conscience is not the HOly Spirit
we have all gone against our own conscience
because that is what sin is

you need to refine your teaching a little bit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199



Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. I'm sorry that is what I believe
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:05 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
because they were perfectly free


Can God sin?

sin is defined by what God would not do

so, how could God sin?


So God cannot sin, but not because He is perfect, but because he makes up the rules?? The scriptures say God does not change, so therefore He has an established truth that has no darkness at all. God cannot sin. But yet man who you say was made perfect in His image can sin... How? If God is not free to sin and man is made perfect in His image then wouldn't it stand to reason that man could also not sin?? Or is there something more to what is said of man being made in the image of God that is overlooked?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

God doesn't make up anything
His being is reality
and anything He wouldn't do is unreality
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:05 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
just a question!
if all people were concieved from adam and eve,and the jewish nation,why are we not jewish,instead we are goyim?
 Quoting: redsavage

IN Christ, we are the Seed of Abraham
by faith
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:06 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we don't make effort to salvation
it is a free gift
that we receive
i agree that knowing evil was not necessary


I believe that Christ will judge us based on our acceptance or rejection of truth through the heart. As he said, "you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (conscience) will not be forgiven".

I don't think it is a free pass, but certainly it is a gift.

our conscience is not the HOly Spirit
we have all gone against our own conscience
because that is what sin is

you need to refine your teaching a little bit



Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. I'm sorry that is what I believe
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 04:07 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
because they were perfectly free


Can God sin?

sin is defined by what God would not do

so, how could God sin?


So God cannot sin, but not because He is perfect, but because he makes up the rules?? The scriptures say God does not change, so therefore He has an established truth that has no darkness at all. God cannot sin. But yet man who you say was made perfect in His image can sin... How? If God is not free to sin and man is made perfect in His image then wouldn't it stand to reason that man could also not sin?? Or is there something more to what is said of man being made in the image of God that is overlooked?

God doesn't make up anything
His being is reality
and anything He wouldn't do is unreality
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Ok here's one for you

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:09 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
right
when we receive the seed of God's truth
we cannot sin in that area of truth
we are progressively growing in the area of receiving truth

it's like this
if you know fire will burn you
you won't put your hand in the fire

if you don't know fire will burn you
you will put your hand in the fire

so, knowing truth
makes you desire to live according to that truth

if we sin
that implies that in the act of that sinning
we really did not know truth
if we knew truth
we would have lived by the truth we knew
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:10 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 04:13 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we have a conscience
even when our spirit is inactive
this is why we can sin
because innately
we know when we are sinned against
so, if we do these things to others
our own conscience convicts us

the Holy Spirit
works by animating our own spirit
and bringing life to our inner man

if we blaspheme the spirit of God
and call it evil
that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

if the Holy Spirit convicts us
that we are not connected to God
and need to be cleansed and forgiven
and we say that we don't need to be cleansed
and forgiven
we cannot receive the free gift
of forgiveness

so, in order to be forgiven
we must yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit
repent, and ask God to forgive and cleanse us
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


I would fully disagree with your theology here.

For starters, the Holy Spirit leads us to the Truth that Jesus is the Christ and saves us from sin. If a person is a believer then the Holy Spirit convicts them of being righteous before God and not a sinner before God.

What most Christians think is the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin, is really the spirit of antichrist accusing them of sin.

It is impossible for the Holy spirit to convict a believer of sin. In the same way it is impossible for God to sin.

Pay close attention to who is convicted of sin in verse 9...it is only those who do not believe in Christ.

John 16
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:15 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:16 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
we have a conscience
even when our spirit is inactive
this is why we can sin
because innately
we know when we are sinned against
so, if we do these things to others
our own conscience convicts us

the Holy Spirit
works by animating our own spirit
and bringing life to our inner man

if we blaspheme the spirit of God
and call it evil
that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

if the Holy Spirit convicts us
that we are not connected to God
and need to be cleansed and forgiven
and we say that we don't need to be cleansed
and forgiven
we cannot receive the free gift
of forgiveness

so, in order to be forgiven
we must yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit
repent, and ask God to forgive and cleanse us


I would fully disagree with your theology here.

For starters, the Holy Spirit leads us to the Truth that Jesus is the Christ and saves us from sin. If a person is a believer then the Holy Spirit convicts them of being righteous before God and not a sinner before God.

What most Christians think is the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin, is really the spirit of antichrist accusing them of sin.

It is impossible for the Holy spirit to convict a believer of sin. In the same way it is impossible for God to sin.

Pay close attention to who is convicted of sin in verse 9...it is only those who do not believe in Christ.

John 16
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

sin harms us
and righteousness brings health
i don't know why you disagree with my post





GLP