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Challenging the Christians on this board

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 240375
Canada
06/10/2007 04:20 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life.

Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs.

Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 186930
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06/10/2007 04:22 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:23 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?


It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life.

Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs.

Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit?
if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 186930
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06/10/2007 04:23 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930


This post was in response to your words quoted below

"""sin harms us
and righteousness brings health
i don't know why you disagree with my post"""
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 228268
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06/10/2007 04:24 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
satan is not real
since he rejected his created being as lucifer
he became unreal
of course he has some form of existance
but, it is not his created being
it is the uncreated monster which he became
so, unreal
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


if you were responding to my claim of satan being real then I want to correct myself. I did not mean to say that satan, the being, is real and alive but rather that the presence of evil is real.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:24 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

if a believer cannot sin
why are we told to confess our sins to one another?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 247199
United States
06/10/2007 04:25 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
satan is not real
since he rejected his created being as lucifer
he became unreal
of course he has some form of existance
but, it is not his created being
it is the uncreated monster which he became
so, unreal


if you were responding to my claim of satan being real then I want to correct myself. I did not mean to say that satan, the being, is real and alive but rather that the presence of evil is real.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 228268

i know what you are saying
but
is evil really real?
or is it the ultimate unreality?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 247199
United States
06/10/2007 04:26 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.


This post was in response to your words quoted below

"""sin harms us
and righteousness brings health
i don't know why you disagree with my post"""
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

you seemed to disagree with my examples of how knowing truth makes a difference in my behavior
i know Jesus is truth manifested
and the Holy Spirit applies truth to our life
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 240375
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06/10/2007 04:26 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit?
if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Our conscience is our sensation of communication with God (truth). Sometimes (often) we cloud this communication with our own striving for existential happiness (i.e. I have to say this or that at work or else I'll lose my job and be living on the street and therefore it must be right if I say this or that). You get the idea.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 186930
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06/10/2007 04:28 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?


It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life.

Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs.

Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375


Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 228268
United States
06/10/2007 04:30 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
i know what you are saying
but
is evil really real?
or is it the ultimate unreality?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Well, by unreality do you mean like an illusion? Something that people think is real but isn't?

If that is the case then I'd ask you if you thought pedophilia was evil, or murdering someone. Are these not manifestations of evil, of bondage and control?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 247199
United States
06/10/2007 04:30 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit?
if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit


Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Our conscience is our sensation of communication with God (truth). Sometimes (often) we cloud this communication with our own striving for existential happiness (i.e. I have to say this or that at work or else I'll lose my job and be living on the street and therefore it must be right if I say this or that). You get the idea.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:31 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 240375
Canada
06/10/2007 04:34 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930


I think this is where you and I differ.

I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is.

While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error).
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 186930
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06/10/2007 04:34 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

if a believer cannot sin
why are we told to confess our sins to one another?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Because when it says that a believer cannot sin, it means that a believer cannot be found guilty of sin before God. John goes on to later say that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ the Righteous.

james says i think to confess our faults in order that we be healed.

Sin is manifested because a law is ruling the soul...when there is no law sin cannot be imputed towards anyone. A believer is removed from the law of sin and death because that is where sin gets its strength over the soul. If there is no law, then there is no strength for sin to work. sin is defeated because we are no longer under a law. sin is strengthened when we look to the knowledge of good and evil which is the law of sin and death.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 247199
United States
06/10/2007 04:35 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
i know what you are saying
but
is evil really real?
or is it the ultimate unreality?


Well, by unreality do you mean like an illusion? Something that people think is real but isn't?

If that is the case then I'd ask you if you thought pedophilia was evil, or murdering someone. Are these not manifestations of evil, of bondage and control?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 228268

now you are talking about behavior
which is pretty easy to discern as being evil

earlier you talked about evil presence
and I'd agree that evil spirits are empowering evil behavior

but, the lie which the evil spirit uses to lead people into sin is unreal
it is always based on lack and fear
i would say a pedophile feels he needs to have sex with a child in order to gain some benefit for himself
in that sense, he is not content with his life in God
and is trying to find something outside of himself to bring peace or happiness
and all evil spirits will cause you to try to find peace and happiness outside of yourself
and they will also tell you that your peace and happiness is more important than the freedom of another person
an evil spirit will lead you to violate another person in order to gratify your own perceived needs

all i am saying is this:
the fear that evil spirits feed to people is not based in reality
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:36 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:37 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.


I think this is where you and I differ.

I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is.

While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

all we can do is yield to the Holy Spirit
it is God who is at work in us both to will
and to do of His good pleasure
if we could live righteous on our own
Jesus would not have had to come to save us
and share his Holy Spirit with us
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:38 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

if a believer cannot sin
why are we told to confess our sins to one another?


Because when it says that a believer cannot sin, it means that a believer cannot be found guilty of sin before God. John goes on to later say that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ the Righteous.

james says i think to confess our faults in order that we be healed.

Sin is manifested because a law is ruling the soul...when there is no law sin cannot be imputed towards anyone. A believer is removed from the law of sin and death because that is where sin gets its strength over the soul. If there is no law, then there is no strength for sin to work. sin is defeated because we are no longer under a law. sin is strengthened when we look to the knowledge of good and evil which is the law of sin and death.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930

we can be found guilty of sinning
but, if we confess our sin
He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
he who says he does not sin
is not righteous
you have to admit you sin
before you can be forgiven and cleansed from it
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:39 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:39 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/10/2007 04:40 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.


I think this is where you and I differ.

I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is.

While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375


So are you saying that you should be merited and glorified to salvation because of your good works? Then it would also stand to reason by this same logic, that the serpent was telling the truth when he said that the knowledge of good and evil would not cause man to die.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:41 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?


I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

did you say that our conscience is the Holy Spirit?
is the Holy Spirit reality?
and do our consciences sometimes condemn us for things which are not sin?
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:41 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
good works don't save you
good works are fruit of having the Holy Spirit leading you
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:42 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.

so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


He hardened his heart to the Holy Spirit (to what his conscience was telling him). He did what he thought was right in the eyes of the world. After the scales fell from his eyes, he softened his heart and started listening to the truth. All of us can do the same thing. But most of us continue to get the truth from cnn, universities, etc. It's pretty simple, the truth is internal, not external. Kant not Hegel.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:43 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
"What exactly is the 'truth' that Jesus claimed to be, and that we would also know that would set us free?"

Love fulfills the law. Jesus sets you free from all the traditions of man and saves you from religious confusion.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:45 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
s

So are you saying that you should be merited and glorified to salvation because of your good works? Then it would also stand to reason by this same logic, that the serpent was telling the truth when he said that the knowledge of good and evil would not cause man to die.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930


No, not merited and glorified by our works, but Christ said if you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will be forgiven. Guess who does the forgiving?

I haven't really thought about what the serpent said
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:47 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
all i am saying is this:
the fear that evil spirits feed to people is not based in reality
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Okay, I see what you're saying. So, you believe that there is only one reality? Thats fine with me, in a small world I think we'd get along just fine, but I hold the belief that the reality we are in now is simply one of many many realities. And to be honest I don't see any way of proving either side. I guess we're in the same book just different pages.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:48 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?


I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component.

did you say that our conscience is the Holy Spirit?
is the Holy Spirit reality?
and do our consciences sometimes condemn us for things which are not sin?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199


Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Reality is what we perceive so yes it is reality. I don't think our conscience condemns us of things that are not sin, but we condemn ourselves because there is a constant clash between our existential societal survival mechanisms and the truth in our heart.
Anonymous Coward
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06/10/2007 04:51 PM
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Re: Challenging the Christians on this board
Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.

so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it?


He hardened his heart to the Holy Spirit (to what his conscience was telling him). He did what he thought was right in the eyes of the world. After the scales fell from his eyes, he softened his heart and started listening to the truth. All of us can do the same thing. But most of us continue to get the truth from cnn, universities, etc. It's pretty simple, the truth is internal, not external. Kant not Hegel.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375

earlier you said you can't be forgiven for resisting your conscience, what you called HOly Spirit
but, Paul was forgiven
and Jesus appeared to him
while he was still resisting the Holy Spirit
so, how can you say he wasn't forgiven
for resisting the Holy Spirit?





GLP