Challenging the Christians on this board | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth. but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others example: some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor and the child suffers so, how is that "scruple" a good thing? It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life. Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs. Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 186930 Canada 06/10/2007 04:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth. but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others example: some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor and the child suffers so, how is that "scruple" a good thing? It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life. Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs. Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit. so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit? if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 186930 Canada 06/10/2007 04:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930This post was in response to your words quoted below """sin harms us and righteousness brings health i don't know why you disagree with my post""" |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 228268 United States 06/10/2007 04:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | satan is not real Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199since he rejected his created being as lucifer he became unreal of course he has some form of existance but, it is not his created being it is the uncreated monster which he became so, unreal if you were responding to my claim of satan being real then I want to correct myself. I did not mean to say that satan, the being, is real and alive but rather that the presence of evil is real. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930if a believer cannot sin why are we told to confess our sins to one another? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:25 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | satan is not real Quoting: Anonymous Coward 228268since he rejected his created being as lucifer he became unreal of course he has some form of existance but, it is not his created being it is the uncreated monster which he became so, unreal if you were responding to my claim of satan being real then I want to correct myself. I did not mean to say that satan, the being, is real and alive but rather that the presence of evil is real. i know what you are saying but is evil really real? or is it the ultimate unreality? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930This post was in response to your words quoted below """sin harms us and righteousness brings health i don't know why you disagree with my post""" you seemed to disagree with my examples of how knowing truth makes a difference in my behavior i know Jesus is truth manifested and the Holy Spirit applies truth to our life |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit? if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Our conscience is our sensation of communication with God (truth). Sometimes (often) we cloud this communication with our own striving for existential happiness (i.e. I have to say this or that at work or else I'll lose my job and be living on the street and therefore it must be right if I say this or that). You get the idea. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 186930 Canada 06/10/2007 04:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth. but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others example: some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor and the child suffers so, how is that "scruple" a good thing? It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life. Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs. Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit. Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ. Christ is love and truth, which is self denial. This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification. Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 228268 United States 06/10/2007 04:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | i know what you are saying Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199but is evil really real? or is it the ultimate unreality? Well, by unreality do you mean like an illusion? Something that people think is real but isn't? If that is the case then I'd ask you if you thought pedophilia was evil, or murdering someone. Are these not manifestations of evil, of bondage and control? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit? if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Our conscience is our sensation of communication with God (truth). Sometimes (often) we cloud this communication with our own striving for existential happiness (i.e. I have to say this or that at work or else I'll lose my job and be living on the street and therefore it must be right if I say this or that). You get the idea. but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:31 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | s Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ. Christ is love and truth, which is self denial. This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification. Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified. I think this is where you and I differ. I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is. While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error). |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 186930 Canada 06/10/2007 04:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199if a believer cannot sin why are we told to confess our sins to one another? Because when it says that a believer cannot sin, it means that a believer cannot be found guilty of sin before God. John goes on to later say that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ the Righteous. james says i think to confess our faults in order that we be healed. Sin is manifested because a law is ruling the soul...when there is no law sin cannot be imputed towards anyone. A believer is removed from the law of sin and death because that is where sin gets its strength over the soul. If there is no law, then there is no strength for sin to work. sin is defeated because we are no longer under a law. sin is strengthened when we look to the knowledge of good and evil which is the law of sin and death. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:35 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | i know what you are saying Quoting: Anonymous Coward 228268but is evil really real? or is it the ultimate unreality? Well, by unreality do you mean like an illusion? Something that people think is real but isn't? If that is the case then I'd ask you if you thought pedophilia was evil, or murdering someone. Are these not manifestations of evil, of bondage and control? now you are talking about behavior which is pretty easy to discern as being evil earlier you talked about evil presence and I'd agree that evil spirits are empowering evil behavior but, the lie which the evil spirit uses to lead people into sin is unreal it is always based on lack and fear i would say a pedophile feels he needs to have sex with a child in order to gain some benefit for himself in that sense, he is not content with his life in God and is trying to find something outside of himself to bring peace or happiness and all evil spirits will cause you to try to find peace and happiness outside of yourself and they will also tell you that your peace and happiness is more important than the freedom of another person an evil spirit will lead you to violate another person in order to gratify your own perceived needs all i am saying is this: the fear that evil spirits feed to people is not based in reality |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:36 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit? I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | s Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ. Christ is love and truth, which is self denial. This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification. Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified. I think this is where you and I differ. I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is. While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error). all we can do is yield to the Holy Spirit it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure if we could live righteous on our own Jesus would not have had to come to save us and share his Holy Spirit with us |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:38 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930if a believer cannot sin why are we told to confess our sins to one another? Because when it says that a believer cannot sin, it means that a believer cannot be found guilty of sin before God. John goes on to later say that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ the Righteous. james says i think to confess our faults in order that we be healed. Sin is manifested because a law is ruling the soul...when there is no law sin cannot be imputed towards anyone. A believer is removed from the law of sin and death because that is where sin gets its strength over the soul. If there is no law, then there is no strength for sin to work. sin is defeated because we are no longer under a law. sin is strengthened when we look to the knowledge of good and evil which is the law of sin and death. we can be found guilty of sinning but, if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness he who says he does not sin is not righteous you have to admit you sin before you can be forgiven and cleansed from it |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit? I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us. so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it? |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 186930 Canada 06/10/2007 04:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | s Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ. Christ is love and truth, which is self denial. This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification. Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified. I think this is where you and I differ. I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is. While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error). So are you saying that you should be merited and glorified to salvation because of your good works? Then it would also stand to reason by this same logic, that the serpent was telling the truth when he said that the knowledge of good and evil would not cause man to die. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component. did you say that our conscience is the Holy Spirit? is the Holy Spirit reality? and do our consciences sometimes condemn us for things which are not sin? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit? I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us. so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it? He hardened his heart to the Holy Spirit (to what his conscience was telling him). He did what he thought was right in the eyes of the world. After the scales fell from his eyes, he softened his heart and started listening to the truth. All of us can do the same thing. But most of us continue to get the truth from cnn, universities, etc. It's pretty simple, the truth is internal, not external. Kant not Hegel. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 242923 United States 06/10/2007 04:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:45 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | s Quoting: Anonymous Coward 186930So are you saying that you should be merited and glorified to salvation because of your good works? Then it would also stand to reason by this same logic, that the serpent was telling the truth when he said that the knowledge of good and evil would not cause man to die. No, not merited and glorified by our works, but Christ said if you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will be forgiven. Guess who does the forgiving? I haven't really thought about what the serpent said |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 228268 United States 06/10/2007 04:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | all i am saying is this: Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199the fear that evil spirits feed to people is not based in reality Okay, I see what you're saying. So, you believe that there is only one reality? Thats fine with me, in a small world I think we'd get along just fine, but I hold the belief that the reality we are in now is simply one of many many realities. And to be honest I don't see any way of proving either side. I guess we're in the same book just different pages. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 240375 Canada 06/10/2007 04:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 247199I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component. did you say that our conscience is the Holy Spirit? is the Holy Spirit reality? and do our consciences sometimes condemn us for things which are not sin? Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Reality is what we perceive so yes it is reality. I don't think our conscience condemns us of things that are not sin, but we condemn ourselves because there is a constant clash between our existential societal survival mechanisms and the truth in our heart. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 247199 United States 06/10/2007 04:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ Quoting: Anonymous Coward 240375do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit? I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us. so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it? He hardened his heart to the Holy Spirit (to what his conscience was telling him). He did what he thought was right in the eyes of the world. After the scales fell from his eyes, he softened his heart and started listening to the truth. All of us can do the same thing. But most of us continue to get the truth from cnn, universities, etc. It's pretty simple, the truth is internal, not external. Kant not Hegel. earlier you said you can't be forgiven for resisting your conscience, what you called HOly Spirit but, Paul was forgiven and Jesus appeared to him while he was still resisting the Holy Spirit so, how can you say he wasn't forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit? |