Challenging the Christians on this board

some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?

some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?


It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life.

Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs.

Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

satan is not real
since he rejected his created being as lucifer
he became unreal
of course he has some form of existance
but, it is not his created being
it is the uncreated monster which he became
so, unreal

I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

satan is not real
since he rejected his created being as lucifer
he became unreal
of course he has some form of existance
but, it is not his created being
it is the uncreated monster which he became
so, unreal


if you were responding to my claim of satan being real then I want to correct myself. I did not mean to say that satan, the being, is real and alive but rather that the presence of evil is real.

I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.


This post was in response to your words quoted below

"""sin harms us
and righteousness brings health
i don't know why you disagree with my post"""

nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit?
if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit

some people have a "conscience" full of scruples which did not originate with God


This is why I believe atheists who follow their "conscience" but don't believe it came from God will still get to heaven. It doesn't matter where you think it came from (nor where I think it comes from), what is important is following it's dictates which are the truth.

but, some scruples are not from God and actually harm the person who has them and causes them to sin against others

example:
some people have a "scruple" that they can't go to a doctor, so, they dont' take their sick child to the doctor
and the child suffers

so, how is that "scruple" a good thing?


It is impossible for me to say how this "scruple" feels internally for the parties in question. Ideally, we could always go to our counselor (Holy Spirit) and resolve every decision in life.

Unfortunately we have all to some degree hardened our hearts and the discernment is often flawed by what we think is the right decision based on existential inputs.

Prayer and meditation are techniques spiritual people have always used to amplify the voice of the spirit and are really the only way I know of to improve our discernment of right and wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

i know what you are saying
but
is evil really real?
or is it the ultimate unreality?

nd wrong, true and false, through the spirit.

so, you agree that our conscience needs to be educated by the Holy Spirit?
if so, the conscience is not the Holy Spirit


Our conscience is the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Our conscience is our sensation of communication with God (truth). Sometimes (often) we cloud this communication with our own striving for existential happiness (i.e. I have to say this or that at work or else I'll lose my job and be living on the street and therefore it must be right if I say this or that). You get the idea.

s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.

I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

if a believer cannot sin
why are we told to confess our sins to one another?

i know what you are saying
but
is evil really real?
or is it the ultimate unreality?


Well, by unreality do you mean like an illusion? Something that people think is real but isn't?

If that is the case then I'd ask you if you thought pedophilia was evil, or murdering someone. Are these not manifestations of evil, of bondage and control?

Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?

s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.


I think this is where you and I differ.

I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is.

While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error).

I disgree with your post in the fact that God cannot convict a believer of being in sin. it is impossible. Otherwise God would be denying Himself as our righteousness. If God is convicting someone of sin then it is the sin of no faith in Him. Whatever is not of faith is sin. The knowledge of good and evil has nothing to do with righteousness, but because we are programmed to live by this good and evil code from day one of our lives, it becomes embedded into our mindset and philosophy. When faith comes, then the axe is laid to the root of that tree in our life and it is thrown into the fire and destroyed. Salvation is not dependant upon anything the knowledge tree offered. It is completely dependant upon the tree of life which is faith in Christ alone.

if a believer cannot sin
why are we told to confess our sins to one another?


Because when it says that a believer cannot sin, it means that a believer cannot be found guilty of sin before God. John goes on to later say that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ the Righteous.

james says i think to confess our faults in order that we be healed.

Sin is manifested because a law is ruling the soul...when there is no law sin cannot be imputed towards anyone. A believer is removed from the law of sin and death because that is where sin gets its strength over the soul. If there is no law, then there is no strength for sin to work. sin is defeated because we are no longer under a law. sin is strengthened when we look to the knowledge of good and evil which is the law of sin and death.

but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?

Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.

s
Discernment should be observed by our knowledge and foundation of truth in Christ.

Christ is love and truth, which is self denial.

This was my entire point in posting this thread, that we would become concrete in what our foundation of truth in Christ truly is. And we would learn to discern what was of the lie which is the desire for self glorification.

Is our salvation dependant upon us or is it solely dependant upon Christ. because if we are merited in any way towards salvation then our foundation is based on the lie of seeking to be self glorified.


I think this is where you and I differ.

I think our human journey is a lifetime of decisions based on following the dictates of the Holy Spirit. In the end, if we have lived in truth we will happily dwell in heaven. If we have done much evil, gone through our lives hardening our heart to our conscience and making our own right and wrong based on what is expeditious for us in this world, then we will have a hard time dwelling in the full light of truth and will need to avoid it at all costs....this is what hell is.

While I appreciate the Gospels and believe it is water to the soul, I also believe that we ourselves play a huge role in our salvation. Jesus plays a huge role in my life, and our salvation would be impossible without him, but denying that doing good in the world is also a necessity would be in error (just like saying blindly following religious dogma would be in error).

but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?


I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component.

Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.

so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it?

s

So are you saying that you should be merited and glorified to salvation because of your good works? Then it would also stand to reason by this same logic, that the serpent was telling the truth when he said that the knowledge of good and evil would not cause man to die.

all i am saying is this:
the fear that evil spirits feed to people is not based in reality

but, you said earlier that we had to seek the Holy Spirit to know if our scruples were reality, did you not?


I think that was someone else.....I haven't touched on the reality component.

did you say that our conscience is the Holy Spirit?
is the Holy Spirit reality?
and do our consciences sometimes condemn us for things which are not sin?

Saul, before he became the apostle Paul, had religious scruples which compelled him to kill followers of Christ

do you think his conscience at that time had anything to do with the Holy Spirit?


I would say Saul did what would bring him praise from others at that time....persecute Xtians. I would say Saul converted from existentialism to being guided by the Holy Spirit, the conversion demanded of all of us.

so, before his conversion his conscience was not acting like a holy spirit, was it?


He hardened his heart to the Holy Spirit (to what his conscience was telling him). He did what he thought was right in the eyes of the world. After the scales fell from his eyes, he softened his heart and started listening to the truth. All of us can do the same thing. But most of us continue to get the truth from cnn, universities, etc. It's pretty simple, the truth is internal, not external. Kant not Hegel.