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MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 04:07 PM
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MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 04:11 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I don't know a damn thing about music.




But I can look at any fret on a guitar and know what sound it will produce.


and yes, You should learn it if you understand it.
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 04:15 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Yeah, I can do that but rarely have a need to. Now if you plan on playing classical and a lot of arpeggios, well, that is different. But for most modern music I just need to know the key, basic chord progressions and then I usually just hear it and duplicate it.
MountainTux NLI

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02/23/2019 04:17 PM

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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning and understanding the fret board is wildly important if you want to play a lot of good lead, write / compose, or have a superior understanding of alternate chord progressions.

Don't misunderstand - you can be a very able player / performer only understanding basic chords, and never knowing where a single root note actually is except in that context. But if you want to be more than just capable, if you want to really excel and have the ability to improvise live and clean, I can't overstate the importance of knowing the fretboard.

It is, in fact, the next thing I'll be turning my energy to when time opens op. I should have done years ago, but I never make the time to practice enough, never mind learn. Then again, I won't be doing any world tours in the next... well, rest of my life LOL! So I've not prioritized.

Hope this helps a bit... cheers!

penguin
ad ignorantiam - The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
LHPaul

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02/23/2019 04:18 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I play 100% by ear. Never learned how to read music.
LHPaul
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 04:34 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
It's somewhat important but I wouldn't approach it that way. Just knowing the names of the notes isn't going to help much. If you are new to the instrument just learn some songs and on the side learn theory and harmony. Learn how chords are built. For example, a major seventh chord is built from the 1,3,5,7 of the Ionian scale. Learn the basic diatonic harmony based on that scale. Then learn the modes of that scale.

Ionian
Dorian
Phyrigian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aolean
Locrean
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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02/23/2019 04:42 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
well thanks everyone. No im not new to the instrument and i know quite a bit of theory, especially how scales and chords are built and work. Just never got around to being able to know the fretboard, as i usually will find the key by ear and then apply my scale knowledge to that key. But im thinking knowing the fretboard will allow me to instantly apply whatever arpeggio i want and scales that are outside of the root key and what not.
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 04:43 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
A major seventh can also be built from the Lydian mode.

1. Ionian - major seventh
2. Dorian - minor seventh
3. Phrygian - minor seventh
4. Lydian - major seventh
5. Mixolydian - dominant seventh
6. Aolean - minor seventh
7. Locrean - minor seventh flat five

So a jazz major 2-5-1 would be Dorian minor 7, mixolydian Dom 7, Ionian maj 7.

A jazz minor 2-5-1 would be a locrean, Phrygian, Aolean.
hillbilly

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02/23/2019 04:54 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Many players try to emulate the voice.
Can you hear a child crying in all that theory?
Which is the key of life? Love? Anger? Water?

Piano did not appeal to me because the black keys don't sound black.
Learned cello, recorder, and bass before guitar.
Ear player, never learned much theory early.
Learning to hear the positions is tricky.
Read a lot of guitar mags, still have most of them.
Re-carving them taught me that each piece affects the tone.

Last Edited by hillbilly on 02/23/2019 05:11 PM
Water is the only drink for a wise man.
Call me a pot but heat me not.-Putin
Silence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -Rumi
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
An old broom knows all the corners.
Slow is steady; steady is smooth; smooth is fast.
Success has a thousand fathers but failure only one son.
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.-Gibran
Agent Smith 2014

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02/23/2019 07:12 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Many players try to emulate the voice.
Can you hear a child crying in all that theory?
Which is the key of life? Love? Anger? Water?

Piano did not appeal to me because the black keys don't sound black.
Learned cello, recorder, and bass before guitar.
Ear player, never learned much theory early.
Learning to hear the positions is tricky.
Read a lot of guitar mags, still have most of them.
Re-carving them taught me that each piece affects the tone.
 Quoting: hillbilly


What did you mean by the last one. Re-carving?
Life is a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.
hillbilly

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02/23/2019 07:19 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
The Blue Kramer pictured in my Av has been re-carved from head to tail.
I put a Satriani Fred pickup in but chiseled the hole out to move it closer to the bridge.
It's at least a pound lighter now.

Last Edited by hillbilly on 02/23/2019 07:23 PM
Water is the only drink for a wise man.
Call me a pot but heat me not.-Putin
Silence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -Rumi
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
An old broom knows all the corners.
Slow is steady; steady is smooth; smooth is fast.
Success has a thousand fathers but failure only one son.
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.-Gibran
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 07:48 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 07:53 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


If somebody memorizes all the notes on the fretboard
What happens when they move to a completely different tuning
The memorize all those alternate tunings too like wtf
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 07:55 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning and understanding the fret board is wildly important if you want to play a lot of good lead, write / compose, or have a superior understanding of alternate chord progressions.

Don't misunderstand - you can be a very able player / performer only understanding basic chords, and never knowing where a single root note actually is except in that context. But if you want to be more than just capable, if you want to really excel and have the ability to improvise live and clean, I can't overstate the importance of knowing the fretboard.

It is, in fact, the next thing I'll be turning my energy to when time opens op. I should have done years ago, but I never make the time to practice enough, never mind learn. Then again, I won't be doing any world tours in the next... well, rest of my life LOL! So I've not prioritized.

Hope this helps a bit... cheers!

penguin
 Quoting: MountainTux NLI


How do you best get to “know” the fretboard? By playing a backing track and just improvising for hours? Or by learning the names and relationships in more of musical theory than skill and feel?
MountainTux NLI

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02/23/2019 08:03 PM

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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning and understanding the fret board is wildly important if you want to play a lot of good lead, write / compose, or have a superior understanding of alternate chord progressions.

Don't misunderstand - you can be a very able player / performer only understanding basic chords, and never knowing where a single root note actually is except in that context. But if you want to be more than just capable, if you want to really excel and have the ability to improvise live and clean, I can't overstate the importance of knowing the fretboard.

It is, in fact, the next thing I'll be turning my energy to when time opens op. I should have done years ago, but I never make the time to practice enough, never mind learn. Then again, I won't be doing any world tours in the next... well, rest of my life LOL! So I've not prioritized.

Hope this helps a bit... cheers!

penguin
 Quoting: MountainTux NLI


How do you best get to “know” the fretboard? By playing a backing track and just improvising for hours? Or by learning the names and relationships in more of musical theory than skill and feel?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 58065576


Heh, if you had a DEFINITIVE answer for that, you'd make a mint and be a guitar teaching guru.

There are MANY ways that people espouse as the best way to learn the fretboard, but frankly, it has to start with memorization. I know one player, damned fine lead improv, who was very adamant that his students learn the fretboard, by rote, and memorization, before even understanding what each note sounded like, or it's relationship.

When I asked him about it, I was surprised and thoughtful about his answer. He felt that trying to learn the fretboard in a "musical" manner was a bad thing, and let to making assumptions and relationships that slowed the process down. His method? Learn the positions and notes on each string first, 6th to first (of course they just repeat after 12th.) THEN focus on knowing where every SINGLE note is on the fretboard, starting at A. Once you can do both of those, you understand the matrix created by the strings, and MOST other theory relating to scales, root, chord construction etc is just about what constitutes a 7th, dim, etc.

Makes a lot of sense, actually, and is probably the easiest method I can think of honestly.

Probably not much help, but it's what I'd (I WILL) do! :)

penguin
ad ignorantiam - The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
Sutton Coldfield

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02/23/2019 08:07 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Learn how to hit the wrong notes properly.
MountainTux NLI

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02/23/2019 08:10 PM

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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Learn how to hit the wrong notes properly.
 Quoting: Sutton Coldfield


This may be the smartest answer yet!

laugh

cheers

penguin
ad ignorantiam - The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 08:17 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I have been playing five years. I tried studying musical theory. Didn’t seem to help at all. I spent months trying to memorize the fretboard. I took an guitar and labeled every note with stickers. I downloaded apps that are like games that quiz you on each note for each fret. Spent months seriously putting in effort trying to memorize them. Quit doing that wasn’t working

Was going to lessons where he tried to teach me theory and scales, modes all that. None of it really clicked whatsoever. I know I guess the first shape of minor pentatonic that’s it. After all the effort I have put in

I could tell you any note on the guitar in any tuning it will just take me up to a minute. I think I could tell you note by note within a second on the E string. None of the stuff had clicked. And when I watch musicians improvise.. seems to me they aren’t thinking about this stuff in the least

That’s why I’ve decided to just start improvising over backing tracks. I feel like I am starting to really improve compared to where I was at. Plus I get to play; I don’t sit there trying to learn a foreign language. Maybe it’s all a waste of time I don’t know
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 08:21 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
If you hit the wrong note can you just bend to that note quick or slide to it
Is that how they cover up mistakes?
It’s really overwhelming when you watch and hear professionals
You never hear a mistake. And that just seems totally unrealistic. A pro baseball player will have errors how can they be so seemingly perfect and
not just some of them. Seems like they all are
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 08:23 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I do know the fret numbers by feel
So there is that what an accomplishment
hillbilly

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02/23/2019 08:45 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Van Halen is fond of saying "I bend them all."
Repeating a "wrong" note makes it right;)
The first rule is there are none.
You can move the basic chord shapes up and down.
You have to build and maintain callouses too.
Warming up is very important.
Just keeping it in tune is hard enough.
Alternate tunings are a whole nuther ballgame;)

Last Edited by hillbilly on 02/23/2019 08:52 PM
Water is the only drink for a wise man.
Call me a pot but heat me not.-Putin
Silence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -Rumi
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
An old broom knows all the corners.
Slow is steady; steady is smooth; smooth is fast.
Success has a thousand fathers but failure only one son.
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.-Gibran
DuckNCover

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02/23/2019 08:52 PM

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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I play guitar and piano. Have been playing for over 40 years. I took lessons when I was younger. I learned by reading sheet music. I still don't know much about looking at Tabs and transposing that to music. I've been in a few bands that never went anywhere...lol and mainly play for fun. I'm able to play by ear and pick up things very quickly...

I have no words of advice...

What seems to work well is knowing your scales throughout the fret board. Playing within key and knowing what scales to use in a lead pattern...

As of cord structure, there are many ways to play the same cord on a fret board. Whether you start at the root 1 or 3rd or 5th of the chord. Those are just basic chords. Then you can add 7ths, 9ths, diminished, minor, etc. You get the point, that there are many ways to play a chord and get a different harmonic and therefore; broaden you dynamics in playing...
FlashBuzzkill

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02/23/2019 08:55 PM

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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
It's somewhat important but I wouldn't approach it that way. Just knowing the names of the notes isn't going to help much. If you are new to the instrument just learn some songs and on the side learn theory and harmony. Learn how chords are built. For example, a major seventh chord is built from the 1,3,5,7 of the Ionian scale. Learn the basic diatonic harmony based on that scale. Then learn the modes of that scale.

Ionian
Dorian
Phyrigian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aolean
Locrean
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35827096


This. Learning the scales will teach you the notes on the fretboard. Practice them all the way up and down in the neck n every position. learn them one at a time.
Gen. John B Gordon and Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest were the finest citizen-soldiers birthed in America.
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 09:05 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
What about rhythm changes?
hillbilly

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02/23/2019 09:10 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
I took classical lessons for a whole month;)
The most valuable thing it taught me is how to pick the strings.
Concentrate on pushing them toward the fingerboard, not across.
Like bouncing a ball, you want them vibrating perpendicular to the board.
You get more volume that way vs. pushing them toward your feet.
Your fretting fingers should skate on the frets, not dig in.
Easier to demonstrate than explain, hope that helps a little.

Last Edited by hillbilly on 02/23/2019 09:12 PM
Water is the only drink for a wise man.
Call me a pot but heat me not.-Putin
Silence is where God speaks. Anything else is but a poor translation. -Rumi
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
An old broom knows all the corners.
Slow is steady; steady is smooth; smooth is fast.
Success has a thousand fathers but failure only one son.
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.-Gibran
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 09:28 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401497


dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 14th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
fat fingered freddy
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02/23/2019 09:29 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401497


dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 13th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401331
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 09:32 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401497


dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 14th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401331


The chromatic scale that is. The 12th fret is one octave up from an open string. The 13th fret is one octave up from the 1st fret. Also the piano is way easier to learn chords and harmony on.
financially fucked fat fred
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02/23/2019 09:35 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
Who here that plays the guitar knows all the notes by sight, as in seeing all the notes on the fretboard instantly in your minds eye?

If so do you think it's a worthwhile skill and should i endeavour to learn them? or just blag my way through with tab or youtube tutorials/memorization.

I already know a few of the notes obviously for general bar chords, but im far from seeing all notes across the fretboard.

On a piano i can see all notes, but i feel its a much easier task as its all laid out neatly in one linear line whereas guitar its hard to see the overlaps and hard to instantly know the fret numbers without looking at the dots and working it out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 44753432


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401497


dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 14th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401331


The chromatic scale that is. The 12th fret is one octave up from an open string. The 13th fret is one octave up from the 1st fret. Also the piano is way easier to learn chords and harmony on.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35827096


do I still get my $30?!
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2019 09:36 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
...


Learning guitar fretboard is easier then piano.

How often do you play?

Not instantly knowing the FRET number is kinda sub par man..unless you're talking above the 12th fret where most guitarists ignore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401497


dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 14th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401331


The chromatic scale that is. The 12th fret is one octave up from an open string. The 13th fret is one octave up from the 1st fret. Also the piano is way easier to learn chords and harmony on.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35827096


do I still get my $30?!
 Quoting: financially fucked fat fred 77401331


Sure, if you can tell me about rhythm changes in one short paragraph.
freddys funtime fury
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02/23/2019 09:39 PM
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Re: MUSICIANS/Guitar players/piano players
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dude, wtf?!

the 12 fret is where the scale ends 14th fret is same as 1st; one octave up.

that's $30...thanx
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77401331


The chromatic scale that is. The 12th fret is one octave up from an open string. The 13th fret is one octave up from the 1st fret. Also the piano is way easier to learn chords and harmony on.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35827096


do I still get my $30?!
 Quoting: financially fucked fat fred 77401331


Sure, if you can tell me about rhythm changes in one short paragraph.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35827096

Why sure....its just like tugging one off....when you get to the bits in your imagination its prolly 2/4 time and when ya get to the vinegar stroke its all Jethro Tull 33/88 type jiggle jiggle.
Thats $60 now sport.





GLP