if not for Oral Torah the Bible is impossible to understand and fulfill

what about shabbat? is this law from the talmud, that shabbat is from 15 minutes before sunset friday until 3 stars are visible satureday night?

Others, like OP, still do have a lot of control over how the Bible is perceived.

The fictional Seder Olam Rabbah is still in use falsely determining chronology.

The truth has always been what I’ve aspired for.

Growing up, I had always been told there was a reason why my people where conquered, that had God willed it, and that we must have been evil, which was why the land was filled with another people, because God had given them the land. That crushed me, since than I had to find out if what they said was real. Did God really do that? And why did he? That filled me with a deep seething anger, until one day, within a dream, God healed me of that anger. Since then I’ve been searching history in another way, searching for God’s hand throughout history.

There are notable historical instances that could have changed many things, such as the Spanish Armada, how Elizabeth I rose to power, the formation of the Six Nations in North America and their influence to the founders of the United States.

Since this thread I’ve also had another realization.
Concerning the distribution of the Bible, during the grief stage I began to read a number of NDE’s (near death experiences). One man mentioned that he had been very badly affected by the cold war, and hadn’t been nice to others because he lived daily in hopelessness because he thought the world was going to end anyways. He was shown that not only would there be no war against the Soviet Union, but that it would end peacefully and with a whimper because ‘God was changing the hearts and minds of the people.’ While the world political leaders took credit for the peace, since the 1950’s, men and woman had been smuggling bibles into Russia through Romania, and were hunted by the Authorities there. One man, a soldier was visited by an angel while arresting Christians. He was basically told that if he arrested the man that there would be consequences, he was terrified and eventually quit the army. Later he himself was delivering Christian bibles, they were able to find Russian ones, but didn’t have a way to bring them across the border, but the angel told them to go to the border anyways, that a ‘way’ would be provided for them. All this happened, and for years they moved bibles until the man was arrested.

One thing that fascinates abut the Bible including the New Testament is how it focuses on Empires. Well if you look at instances of how the Bible was distributed throughout the world, and how certain countries became progressively freer than others before it, you begin to see the two coincide. God broke down Empires and major powers before other countries were able to rise. Or the way was made for people to do things that were not possible before. (Such as the invention of the printing press, phone, many technologies contributed to make the world ‘smaller’ for the world to connect.)

The Messiah is supposed to bring peace to the world yes? As for Jesus Christ, his message was distributed in those Bibles sent to Russia through Romania, many thousands of them. God provided a way for those Bibles to pass through against impossible odds, and the words contained in those books spoke for themselves, and the Soviet Union came to an end. While it is not the entire world, Christians believe Christ will return, but I do believe Jesus Christ has already shown that he is capable of bringing peace to areas of the world.

The truth will speak for itself. While those people assumed God was punishing my people, I realize now he has a purpose for us that is yet to come, like he has for your people. Trust in God, the truth comes from him.

"rituals" of Kaballah and for the most part hidden/coded into the Tora are all directly associated with astronomical events ... Kabbalist have been studyig the stars for over four thousand years ...

"Oral" means VOCAL = dogma - recorded in the Talmund is the practice of immitation ... of previous Prophet/Seer's behaviors ... Kabbalist, go to bed at dawn ... sleep all day, and get up at dusk, they believe that the Light is more apparent, in the dark (just as the stars are) and that there is far less "static" when everyone else is sleeping ...even the bird, animals and insects for the most part ... and they are better able to focus without distractions ... their only work was to study the Torah - people paid them to do that for them and they were always very very rich.

Kabbalists call their deeper understanding of the Tora and its ties to the heavens, "the Soul of the Tora" and consider the Torah more secular - or superficial - things like the fringe blue and red strings were preserved in the Talmud to keep from being lost - but they "traditional" and not really spiritual requirements like keeping the Sabbath "holy" - was for protection - not in-lightenment - they were to encourage discipline - more than anything else

as for the "written" Torah, it boils down to the projection of frequencies or tones of the spoken word... that also can be transmitted by black forms on white paper ... over the centuries, copies of the scrolls have been painstakingly duplicated by skilled craftment, to insure that not one "jot or tittle" was missing or out of place, because that would alter the frequency. They believed, and the Navy proved, that and individual could simply run the tip of their finger over the written word, and it would be transfered to the individual's soul to enhance their Consciousness

if you have ever studied the Torah, written in it's original language (a variation of Sandscript with crowns and tails - you will notice that the letter, even the modern typewritten ones, rise up off the page - and that they vibrate - by design - just like when they are spoken

and god SAID/Spoke "let there be light" ... the formula of creation is "energetically expressed (toned) intention projected into the Light" .... aka "thoughts create"

Thread: WORDS... What do they mean? (Page 2)

Because maybe they didn't want "to look after orphans and widows
in their tribulation", by letting them glean, for instance, or to keep their brother's name alive, like "their repurchaser", Boaz did for Ruth and Naomi.

Deuteronomy 25:5, 6 reads: “In case brothers dwell together and one of them has died without his having a son, the wife of the dead one should not become a strange man’s outside. Her brother-in-law should go to her, and he must take her as his wife and perform brother-in-law marriage with her. And it must occur that the firstborn whom she will bear should succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be wiped out of Israel.” This doubtless applied whether the surviving brother was married or not.

Jehovah is the one “to whom every family in heaven and on earth owes its name.” (Eph 3:15) He shows concern for the preservation of the family name and line. This principle was followed in patriarchal times and was later incorporated into the Law covenant with Israel. The woman was not to “become a strange man’s outside,” that is, she should not marry anyone outside the family. When her brother-in-law took her, the firstborn would bear, not the name of the brother-in-law, but that of the deceased man. This does not mean that the child always bore the same given name but that he carried on the family line and the hereditary possession remained in the household of the deceased man.


Matt. 22
23 On that day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came and asked him:

24 “Teacher, Moses said: ‘If any man dies without having children, his brother must marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.’

25 Now there were seven brothers with us. The first married and died, and having no offspring, he left his wife for his brother.

26 The same thing happened with the second and the third, through all seven.

27 Last of all, the woman died.

28 So in the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her as a wife.”



If they don't believe in a resurrection, why would they think they needed to keep their brother's name alive, and land passed down in his name? They'd already been "joining house to house" accumulating in their own names for generations probably ?

NOPE !

Oral tradition was what

Jesus said WAS WRONG

WITH THE JEWISH LEADERS.
(they were BINDING MEN’s “ Law” onto the people)

Jesus fulfilled every “jot & tittle”

Required by the Law.

we are now under a new “TESTAMENT”

that “went into effect upon the death

of the TESTATOR !” - Jesus The Christ.

My MWNV

Your MWNV
.
YOU may decide to obey or DISOBEY

the Bible.

I suggest that the best way forward is

to attempt to OBEY the Bible,

TRUSTING IN FORGIVENESS ( Grace) of Jehovah God
Revealed as The Gospel -message:

Hear The Word of God
Believe The Word of God
Repent of Your sins
Confess Your belief that Jesus is The Living Son of God
Be baptized (immersed in water) calling on the Name of Jesus
( Many are baptized in The Name of The Father, The Son, and
The Holy Spirit)
Continue to attempt to OBEY GOD’S Word...
as we confess OUR sins relying on The Grace of God.

The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection, as is clear, not only from the Gospel accounts, but also from the record at Acts 23:6-10, which tells of the strife between the Pharisees and Sadducees that Paul caused by stating that he believed in the resurrection of the dead. The tricky question the Sadducees asked, about a woman having had seven brothers in succession as husbands and whose wife she would be in the resurrection, was meant to prove Jesus mistaken, but he turned the tables on them and proved them mistaken. In doing so Jesus could have quoted from many scriptures showing that the dead would arise, such as the words of Job (14:13-15), Hosea (13:14), Daniel (12:13) and others. But because the Sadducees held that only the Pentateuch was inspired, Jesus used the words of Jehovah to Moses at the burning bush to prove his point.—Matt. 22:31, 32.

This was really a master stroke on the part of Jesus, for the Sadducees prided themselves on knowing the Pentateuch and yet they had not seen in it the clear implication of the resurrection that Jesus pointed out to them. They had not gained the import of what God said to Moses at the burning bush to indicate that he, Jehovah God, is the Deity, not of the dead, but of the living. For the then dead Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to live again to worship their common God they would have to experience a resurrection from the dead. Jehovah God was equal to this miracle of the resurrection of the dead.—Ex. 3:6.

I just feel like I have to chime in and second your observation about the Spanish Armada and Eliz. I. So strange how it all came about.
And I didn't know about the Six Nations, but would like to find out.

Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, but I guess -rightly or wrongly- still "patriotic" enough to find the Navaho Code -thing, in WWII, to be so moving. [If you disagree, you may be right, and I just don't know enough about it.]


I've learned from this thread, and recognize common ground origins, even where we differ, which makes me really happy, somehow !

Why did Jesus the Nazarene quote the Oral Tradition at least several times, all without attribution, to non-Jewish listeners who would be unfamiliar -- then go on to rail against the Traditions of the Fathers?

The Talmud is meticulous about attribution.

Rabbi A said that Rabbi B said that Rabbi C said that Rabbi D said (or Rabbi X said that Rabbi D said that Rabbi C said) that (insert something here.) The Nazarene just announced it as if he made it up, and the people were amazed.

So Christians are getting a few little scraps of Talmud. (For example the story about don't complain about the mote in someone else's eye until you remove the beam from your own.) But the aren't told where they come from.

"Nazarene"
A name for Jesus, as one from the town of Nazareth.
It is probably related to the Hebrew word used at Isaiah 11:1 for “sprout.”
A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesse,
And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.



Psalm 132:11
11 Jehovah has sworn to David;
He will surely not go back on his word:
“One of your offspring,*
I will place on your throne.


Isaiah 53:2
He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land.
No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;
And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.*


Revelation 5:5
5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”


Ruth 4:17
Then the neighbor women gave him a name. They said, “A son has been born to Naomi,” and they named him Obed. He is the father of Jesse, David’s father.


1 Samuel 17:58
Saul now said to him: “Whose son are you, boy?” to which David said: “The son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.”


Matthew 1:1
The book of the history* of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:


Matthew 1:6
Jesse became father to David the king.
David became father to Solomon by the wife of Uriah;


Luke 3:23
When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old,
being the son, as the opinion was,
of Joseph
son of Heli,

Luke 3:32
son of Jesse,
son of Obed,
son of Boaz,
son of Salmon,
son of Nahshon,

Acts 13:22, 23
22 After removing him, he raised up for them David as king,+ about whom he bore witness and said: ‘I have found David the son of Jesse a man agreeable to my heart; he will do all the things I desire.’ 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.


Romans 15:12
And again Isaiah says: “There will be the root of Jesse, the one arising to rule nations;+ on him nations will rest their hope.”


Revelation 22:16
16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David+ and the bright morning star.’”



It was later applied to Jesus’ followers as well.—Mt 2:23; Ac 24:5.

No thanks, I will follow the Torah.

Which are those laws? Can you give a Gemara reference for example? How could they be laws? It isn't a law to say a person is or isn't a simpleton, and it's acknowledged that some Jws are simpletons, so are you saying anything?

Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters | The New Yorker
[link to www.newyorker.com (secure)]
The writer reveals his identity & defends his brother, who is retiring, poetic & a genius. ... The writer finds Seymour's diary which tells about his great love for Muriel & about her mother's concern about his mental health. The writer learns that Seymour and Muriel eloped right after ...



I've wondered if this title of a Novella by Salinger refers to a principle, whereby, e.g., Haman was "hoist on his own petard",
kind of ?

- or "a beam pulled out of own house.... & it turned into public privy?" like how some called "Vespasians" ?

That's some pretty weak stuff. No proof that would hold up in a court of law of anything about Jesus the Nazarene.

There are two different geneologies, as I recall, neither of them quite right. The lineage of Joseph, his mother's husband, is irrelevant right? It's not his seed.

Ya gotta believe! Because the proof is not there at all.

What's even the point of the Matthew 1:6 quote? Yes David did have intercourse with Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite, then arranged for Uriah to be killed in battle, it's not the only nasty thing he did. And Bathsheba was the mother of Shlomo the wisest man in history who got the first temple built and had 700 wives. But what does this have to do with a rabbi a long way in the future who couldn't be bothered to quote the source when he quoted the oral tradition and pretended he was inventing it fresh?

Maybe a little late, but better late than never, I guess !

The Samaritans only had Moses' writings, but even they knew it was time for Messiah to arrive when he did, starting his 31/2 year ministry in 29 CE.

I was referring to the Talmud, Arakhin 16b, where I was interested to read the following. While the Babylonian Talmud was written down around 400-500 AD and was oral tradition before that, the story refers to people long before the time of Jesus the Nazarene, who repeats without attribution and tells a less complete story as well, leaving out the very interesting last sentence:

It is taught in a baraita that Rabbi Tarfon says: I would be surprised if there is anyone in this generation who can receive rebuke. Why? Because if the one rebuking says to him: Remove the splinter from between your eyes, i.e., rid yourself of a minor infraction, the other says to him: Remove the beam from between your eyes, i.e., you have committed far more severe sins. Rabbi Elazar ben Azaria says: I would be surprised if there is anyone in this generation who knows how to rebuke correctly, without embarrassing the person he is rebuking.

I will not worship a god that came out of the middle east.

God is holy.

You are a sinner.

God made provision for you.

All you must do is Believe.

You are already dirty.

You can't make yourself clean.

He can.

His Way.

The Sadducees were heavily influenced by the Hellenism of the Greek occupiers of Israel.
Their Greek Hellenist way of thinking made them underestimate the Oral Tradition... Which why they rejected it.


Deuteronomy 17 - G-d delegates the Rabbis (Judges and Elders) to legislate laws according to the Laws of Moses constitution Torah.

No way around it.

Show me even one nation that has a law that is not then interpreted in oral tradition manner and then legislations are made?

Israel is a sovereign nation, it needs to function as a sovereign nation, and the only possible way to do that is if the Torah constitution is interpreted by an authority that legislates according to the constitution.

Gentiles think Israel is some spiritual mambo jambo and not a real sovereign nation with functioning institutions of authority.

I am not OP btw.

It's pretty hard to follow all 613 of the commandments to the Jws, even the 80 or so that apply now with no Temple. The 7 laws for all the descendants of Noah aren't too hard.

You don't even have to honor your father and mother! Eat pretty much anything you want but if you want meat, kill the animal first rather than torturing it by pulling meat off it while it's alive.

That's not too hard is it?

But don't be an idolator.

Where do you get this stuff about "already a sinner"? Did even Jesus the Nazarene say that? Or a bunch of preachers trying to drive down self esteem so people wouldn't feel empowered to connect directly to God?

Create a problem - You are a sinner that needs to be redeemed with blood, but there is no Temple!

Provide a solution - jesus

Profit - Christendom.

Sounds about right. And well after that individual had passed on and couldn't even object.

The whole mystical redemption formula they used wasn't even new. It's the formula for animals in the OT.

Be treated like an animal. In fact, let Jesus the Nazarene be holy in your place rather than being holy yourself. Let him redeem you!

There's some other example too that I just noticed a day or two ago where the Christian formulation is from the laws of animals in the Tanach, but I can't think of it at the moment.

Animal sacrifices never atoned for INTENTIONAL sins.

Most sins are not atoned by sacrifices even when there is a Temple.
Only repentance.

Yes, you should be holy for I am holy.

In Judaism, WE ALL ARE the word made flesh. The universe is the word of G-d made flesh.
But oh no... Now jesus is the word, and we are? well... we are nothing really.

Yes there are 2 genealogies.
One, of his mother, Mary, and one of his adoptive father, Joseph, showed both natural [Mary] and legal descent [Joseph] from King David.

Yes , it was extremely nasty to Uriah, who seems like he was about the most loyal Israelite ever, even though he was an immigrant.

It's heartbreaking to think of how Uriah was treated, and David was heartbroken when he was made to recognize the gravity of what he had done to Uriah.

He was repentant, but "A sword would not depart from" his household from then on, and the kingdom was divided after "Schlomo", his son, who, for all his wisdom, exceptional for a human, should have followed Torah better.-

Deuteronomy 17
Guidelines for a King
…16But the king must not acquire many horses for himself or send the people back to Egypt to acquire more horses, for the LORD has said, ‘You are never to go back that way again.’ 17He must not take many wives for himself, lest his heart go astray. He must not accumulate for himself great amounts of silver and gold. 18When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests.…

Cross References
2 Samuel 5:13
After he had arrived from Hebron, David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

2 Samuel 12:11
This is what the LORD says: 'I will raise up adversity against you from your own house. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to another, and he will lie with them in broad daylight.

1 Kings 10:27
The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as abundant as sycamore in the foothills.

1 Kings 11:1
King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh--women of Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon, as well as Hittite women.

1 Kings 11:3
He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines--and his wives turned his heart away.

1 Kings 11:4
For when Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and he was not wholeheartedly devoted to the LORD his God, as his father David had been.

2 Chronicles 1:15
The king made silver and gold as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as abundant as sycamore in the foothills.

2 Chronicles 11:21
Rehoboam loved Maacah daughter of Absalom more than all his wives and concubines. In all, he had eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and he was the father of twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters.

Proverbs 31:3
Do not spend your strength on women or your vigor on those who ruin kings.

If I understand it right, guilt offerings can atone for many intentional sins. There are some that cannot be atoned for, and the guilt offering is heavy for a poor person (he cannot bring a cheap bird, has to bring an expensive animal).

Easier sin offerings atone for unintentional sins.

I wonder if anyone will want to continue as an idolator if they read this thread. I hope some will at least look into the matter further.

Shabbat (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) is very important. Don't worship anything or anyone but God.

It really isn't complicated. Do that much, and see what happens.