underground Catholic Masses

I am a catholic. Some of the most unloving and hateful people I know are catholics. If I choose to receive communion in the hand I am told that I am denigrating Jesus Christ by 'fellow' catholics and when I ask to engage in a historical or theological discussion on the topic they use demonizing dismissal techniques in order to remain inside their perfect salvation math problem.

You're welcome.

'Skewed and superficial awareness' is a good example of the demonizing dismissal technique I was referencing. I was the board president of the Divine Face Organization, toured as an actor with Leonardo Defillipis's Passion according to St. Luke and was on the board of directors for St. Bernadette Academy in Keller Texas as well as the principal for 7 years; I was a founding board member of St. John Bosco in Rochester and a founding board member of St. Ignatius prep.

My knowledge of the orthodox faith is hardly superficial or skewed.

i was pretty sure they received on the hand at the last supper until i read the mystical city of god by agreda, now not so sure, anyway not really my expertise to argue for or against. the orthodox and catholic byzantine rites i think are more along the lines of historical administration of the eucharist. not sure but you seem to have a lot of anger built up.

no idea what ur deal is, but thats a common tactic of ex catholics. i was this and i did that for 20 years, etc. etc., i am expert, believe me.

Our God was atop Mount Moriah and Mount Sinai and Mount Carmel and Mount Calvary and Yes our God is atop the Holy Mountain which is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the Inn where the Good Samaritan brought the man beaten by robbers, which is tasked, but not limited to, serving the poor, protecting the Catholic Faith on Earth and gathering all those men of goodwill into the Catholic Church, which is the same thing and equal to the Mystical Body of Christ outside of which no one will be saved.

The Good Thief made an Act of Faith, acknowledging that Jesus had a Kingdom, acknowledging that Jesus was the King of that Kingdom (by use of the word 'your'), he then was baptized by that High Priest from the water that came from the puncture under the rib of Jesus, all with a repentant heart. The Bad Thief wanted scientific observable proof (save yourself), and wanted healing (and save us), all without a repentant heart. The Good Thief was saved and the Bad Thief perished, which brings to light the answer to the so many unanswered questions about the designs of God, which could be to optimize the quality of the saved.

For all truth will have to be accepted before entering Heaven and the soul must still have Jesus Christ, who is The Way and The Life as King of their soul after all truth is revealed, and by the use of the wording "every human creature" in Unam Santum, this is self evident, we are subject to all Truth, regardless if it is explicit or not, because by the time you arrive at your personal judgement, all truth will be explicit, so we humbly pray, that Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, the True Vine and the Seeker of Souls may be King of our Soul, and we sin no more, and that we accept all explicit truth, and accept all truth that will become explicit, and that the Father may draw us, through uncreated grace, to keep climbing the Holy Mountain of God.

i usually like to debate and discuss along the lines of logic, not simply attack the person, or float my experience or expertise. if someone cannot beat an argument logically, i already know i won it.

Pigs can be trained to sniff them out.

"no idea what ur deal is, but thats a common tactic of ex catholics. i was this and i did that for 20 years, etc. etc., i am expert, believe me."

It is always so funny to see the repetition of demonic dismissal of the truth from those claiming to be of the faith when confronted with viewpoints that contradict their Jesus math problem which they claim to have solved perfectly through proper adherence to liturgy.

You called my view 'skewed and superficial' so I gave you some bona fides which you promptly dismissed again. I don't think you realize who it is in this conversation that is attacking (skewed and superficial) and who is not using logic.

i actually havent seen a argument from you that was logically put together, sorry if i missed, peace comes from christ literally inside your soul, reigning as king and shining his light in all the rooms, there may be locked rooms where he is not allowed if there is trouble.

i didnt say that, might have been someone else

Why can't it be both? Why must you always base your faith on your adherence to liturgical norms and not the love you have for your fellow catholics who think differently than you do?

Well, the first argument is that I am catholic despite what you may believe. Because I don't adhere to your brand of religious orthodoxy (I prefer Chesterton for that) you seem content to dismiss me by saying I am not catholic.

Referring to the mystical experience in a logical argument is not appropriate.

You're right is was someone else but your dismissal of me being catholic served the same master.

i was simply saying that ex-catholics use the same strategies, which is suspect.

i would like you to explain really what your issue is. not enough love, too much institution? that is actually a big complaint for many, bishop robert barrron was talking about that in a video some time ago, how alot of people leave because no one cares that they are there. its a big problem.

Perhaps you should examine the strategy in reverse as I have presented it to you and see whether or not your argument is suspect, namely, that you can dismiss me and my argument because it is 'suspect' by virtue of its matching of other ex-catholic's arguments... which, by the way, being an ex catholic in NO WAY nullifies their arguments.

Matthew 28:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.




Matthew 15:9kjv

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

My issue is the use of the 'orthodox' faith (the True faith, the Real faith, not like those fake catholics) to dismiss other catholics. I do not like people claiming loudly to be of the church and then behaving in ways that are opposite to the teachings of Jesus Christ just because they consider themselves elevated by virtue of their deeply flawed rationalizations for preserving liturgical norms to the detriment of love... as you are demonstrating skillfully.

i really dont know what your argument is

sounds like ur mad at the rad trads?
thats why i wrote the treatise, which in part reads:
The Catholic Church; the Catholic Faith and the Institution put in place on Earth to protect the Catholic Faith have 3 separate definitions. Salvation is found only inside the Catholic Church only because it is the same thing and equal to the Mystical Body of Christ.

To be in the Mystical Body of Christ:
-one does have Jesus Christ literally reign King of their soul
-one does not live in contradiction to Jesus Christ

As one who was raised catholic and a fervent believer in what I once thought to be "the real deal" religion, allow me to ask WHY you feel a need to attend mass?


If you Believe In God The Father, HIS Holy Trinity; and Love and Trust HIM, my experience was that after Coming Unto The Father, and Being Born-Again, Given my New Heart Of HIS Flesh, I was never Led to attend a catholic service ever again. What I Was Given BY Father-God IS Personal and Direct Relationship With HIM. I have needed nothing else in the way of religion or religious advice ever since.

I had no knowledge of protestant dogma and aside from attending protestant services as a visitor, had no affinity for protestantism. NO man guided me to in how to Come Unto The Father or what to Do or say.

God, working in my life via The Holy Spirit, caused me to Take Action and thereby Be Born-Again.


Christ's Witness or Instruction to The Apostles at the Last Supper regarding communion was "Do this in remembrance Of ME". Nothing about consecrating bread and wine to achieve transubstantiation. Jesus' ONLY Witness with a MUST Directive is in John 3:7.... "Marvel not that I Say unto you: Ye MUST Be Born-Again!"


Churches are closed but God IS Always There...

KNOWING WHO Jesus IS is "The Rock", or foundation upon which Jesus Says "I will build MY Church". All there in Matthew 16:13-20... Nothing about Peter being ordained pope there...

St. John Witnesses to Born-Agains, in first epistle 2:20 "But you Have An Unction From The Holy One, and Know All things". In verse 27, John Witnesses this again, saying because you have God, "you need that no man teach you".


Christ was Sent With The Gospel and To BE Our Redeemer. As Jesus Says in John 14:6 "...No man Cometh Unto The Father but BY ME!" Of course, the rcc denies the Born-Again Life and that we need to Come Unto The Father... rcc denies that we can KNOW Father and Holy Trinity Personally and Directly.

If you love your church, stay with it; But if you Love God and would Do HIS Will, Christ Has Made The WAY for you to KNOW HIM Personally and Directly.

Everyday Abiding In, With, and Through The Father, there is no need for a religious or denominational affiliation. God is never shutdown...

The most important moment of my life was when I gave all I was and all I would ever be Unto God The Father and accepted/asked only HIS Will from then on. Ten minutes of prayer that changed my life! KNOWING I had been In Father's Presence, and actually Feeling Changed; My life has only been Blessed ever since.

If you seek Relationship With God that will Be With You Always, just Come Unto Father God in earnest and honest prayer and open your heart unto HIM. HE Already Made Your WAY, all you have to do is Take It!

I will answer your 1st question 1st:

Truly those that go to Heaven after their personal judgement are more alive than ever for the soul is immortal and cannot die, and in fact those souls have Jesus Christ living as King of their soul, for through the miracle of the Holy Spirit simple bread and wine is turned into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and that Bread of Life is literally inside them, and if they went to Heaven, that Good Shepherd encompasses the soul completely and entirely, and Jesus even said in the Gospel of John that people would come after him that would do greater miracles than he did, so praying to a Saint in Heaven is praying to Jesus Christ himself, as he has enveloped their soul entirely and they truly and literally have that Morning Star as King of their soul.

Every Eucharist that has been tested by science and the shroud of Turin all come back as AB blood, and the unique thing about AB blood is it is a universal recipient, the only blood type that is, and when prominent scientists from New York based Columbia University tested the Eucharist it came back as blood from an alive heart under duress. Why did the disciples stop following in John Chapter 6? And why did Jesus say to Paul "why do you persecute me"? Because mystically speaking that Man of Sorrows, that Son of the Mystical City, that Fisher of Men is on the cross till the end of time. Jesus confirmed this by saying why do persecute ME, because he is alive in the Eucharist, and many Catholics and Orthodox who are in the state of grace literally have that Nazarene, that Son of the Carpenter, that Light of the World inside of them. This is a mystery of the Faith and many disciples stopped following in John Chapter 6 because of this.

And this is why the Catholic Church is called the Mystical Body of Christ and everyone who has Jesus Christ literally reign King of their soul is a member of this Mystical Body of Christ so all miracles and prayers are by those and to those who are the head, or are in the Mystical Body of Christ.

The Catholic Church; the Catholic Faith and the Institution put in place on Earth to protect the Catholic Faith have 3 separate definitions. Salvation is found only inside the Catholic Church only because it is the same thing and equal to the Mystical Body of Christ.

To be in the Mystical Body of Christ:
-one does have Jesus Christ literally reign King of their soul
-one does not live in contradiction to the Jesus Christ

Hence any Orthodox or Catholic who does not live in contradiction to the Jesus Christ, could be a member of the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ must reign King of your soul to be saved and the most explicit way Jesus Christ can enter your soul is through the miracle of the Holy Spirit which turns bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and the most essential way Jesus Christ can enter your soul is through Baptism by Water.

Jesus Christ, the hypostatic union, who is full of power, as the Rightful King and High Priest has authority and jurisdiction outside time, and inside time, and everywhere in between, and therefore can administer his Body and Blood, or Baptism, with no restrictions or limitations, so potentially one could become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ during the moment before the soul leaves the body, but that would be outside the authority and jurisdiction of the Institution which is put in place on Earth to protect the Catholic Faith.

The Good Thief made an Act of Faith, acknowledging that Jesus had a Kingdom, acknowledging that Jesus was the King of that Kingdom (by use of the word 'your'), he then was baptized by that High Priest from the water that came from the puncture under the rib of Jesus, all with a repentant heart. The Bad Thief wanted scientific observable proof (save yourself), and wanted healing (and save us), all without a repentant heart. The Good Thief was saved and the Bad Thief perished, which brings to light the answer to the so many unanswered questions about the designs of God, which could be to optimize the quality of the saved.

For all truth will have to be accepted before entering Heaven and the soul must still have Jesus Christ, who is The Way and The Life as King of their soul after all truth is revealed, and by the use of the wording "every human creature" in Unam Santum, this is self evident, we are subject to all Truth, regardless if it is explicit or not, because by the time you arrive at your personal judgement, all truth will be explicit, so we humbly pray, that Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, the True Vine and the Seeker of Souls may be King of our Soul, and we sin no more, and that we accept all explicit truth, and accept all truth that will become explicit, and that the Father may draw us, through uncreated grace, to keep climbing the Holy Mountain of God.

I am fascinated why you think your theological math problem as stated has any standing vis a vis the life as demonstrated by Christ. Let's talk about what Christ demonstrated with his life for a bit and not esoteric mystical writings that show disciples receiving the Eucharist on the tongue at the last supper as a means of avoiding genuine argument.

I also wonder why you keep coloring me as 'mad' even though I already called that out as demonic dismissal.

'Rad trads' is a denigration they consider offensive and dismissive. So at least you are an equal opportunity offender.

i dont think you are mad at all, especially if you read chesterton lol

solved that problem too
-one does not live in contradiction to Jesus Christ

im not big into fighting about pastoral directions of the church, which would including liturgy and reception of the eucharist, ill let u argue with someone else about that becuase i never brought that up, even though i would say i tend to agree with the traditionalist on this, but i go to divine liturgy with the byzantines where they spoon it to you so you dont have the option anyway

Word.

Maybe so, but in what way do you feel threatened by this particular thread? It was clearly intended for a specific group—practicing Catholics—and you invited yourself. This forum is full of anti-Catholic venom, and you could easily find a more relevant thread in which to voice your complaints.

If you object to people that inflict their beliefs on others, however, you’d better steer clear of certain Protestants who cannot say enough vile and profane things about their Catholic brethren, all the while spouting chapter-and-verse, and thumping a bible they would not have were it not for the Catholic Church.

No religion has the right to indoctrinate kids! Kids need to grow up and then find their God themselves. None of this bullshit about scaring and scarring kids with eternal damnation! Kids need to grow up and get secure in themselves and their sexuality before finding and discovering their God.

What a bunch of dogmatic horse shit...

Christ Jesus MADE Our Way by Being The Propitiation For All sin, as St. Paul Says. HIS Blood, our Redemption! Evidence Of Father's Love and Desire To Ransom HIS Creation.

EVERYTHING Christ Did Was Ordained BY HIS Father...
Jesus Is ALl About The Father...

Catholicism denies Christ and Father-God... The dogmatic horseshit above need thousands of words and many years of dogmatic "study" (indoctrination, which I got with 30hrs of catholic university philosophy and theology classes).

Plenty of Witness from Christ Jesus that not all who Claim HIM will be admitted into Heaven.

The most concise of these Rejection Witnesses is Matt 7:21-23 where Jesus Witnesses that HE ONLY KNOWS, "...those who DO The Will Of MY Father Which Art In Heaven". Yet, those seeking entry remind HIM that they "Did Miracles, Cast-Out demons, and Prophesied In HIS Name!" (vs.22)

Jesus Tells them: "Depart from ME, you who work iniquity: I KNOW YOU NOT!"

They remained "workers of iniquity" because they never Came Unto The Father to Be Born-Again... Iniquity being self-will... Those Born-Again, Delivered from iniquity BY The Father WHO Enables Born-Agains to KNOW and DO HIS Will and also to "Keep My Statutes".

Lots of Born-Again Witness from Jesus. Never hear it in the homily of a mass. catholicism is all about motherchurch...

Not like your basic parishoners or clergy are mindful of mother's denial of God; but why else deny and keep the faithful from The WAY Christ Died To Enable fulfilling HIS Father's Will?

There is no beauty in denial of God's Will.

In fact, motherchurch is straight-up in enmity unto God!

The cult-indoctrination assures great fear among parishoners for Christian Witness. Twisting Jesus' Words and claiming "divine guidance" to make Mother Mary a co-redemptress and intercessor with God...

Just fucking bullshit.

Nothing like the indignation of a Born-Again who was raised in catholic dysfunction and denial of God.


Am reminded of the psalm that witnesses "I hate with perfect hatred, those that are God's enemies"...

Of course catholicism is ruled by fear and greed; why else Deny God? Trusting HIM Fully would Deliver them into so much greater a role than they fear losing... But that is the way fear and greed take us.

Got to KNOW that God's Will IS Always and In Every WAY Completely PERFECT!

Got To BE Willing To Trust HIM With All You Are and Ever Will BE!

Know This and WHO Jesus IS? Then, Time To Take Action!
"Faith without works is dead", St. James Witnesses...
James means without Taking Action on your faith, by Coming Unto The Father; your faith was never alive at all.

As a catholic I have no problem with any of this except the lack of self reflection to realize that to an outsider both walls of words appear to be dogmatic horseshit and not in relation to what Christ demonstrated with His life.

Though I totally get it. I think Christ would want us to lay down our theology and embrace for there are worse enemies to face and we should face them together.

Last Edited by Chuckles on 05/19/2020 03:51 PM