| Users Online Now: 1,442 (Who's On?) | Visitors Today: 6,040 | |
| Pageviews Today: 14,037 | Threads Today: 4 | Posts Today: 68 |
| 12:06 AM | ||
| Users Online Now: 1,442 (Who's On?) | Visitors Today: 6,040 | |
| Pageviews Today: 14,037 | Threads Today: 4 | Posts Today: 68 |
| 12:06 AM | ||
Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 148742  United States11/08/2007 11:44 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 11:48 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
MoD  User ID: 134741 United States11/08/2007 11:50 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... Who the fuck cares?? Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. ------- Contact: [email protected] |
| mathetes User ID: 320003 United States11/08/2007 11:50 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15-16 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. |
| shaggy User ID: 8528 United States11/08/2007 11:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 11:52 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... Who the fuck cares?? Quoting: MoDWell, I do...I'm not religious, I just want to hear what our more organized religion posters have to say... After all, it's directly related to the formation of an organized Christian church... And that organized church wields a tremendous amount of influence in the United States... I think understanding where it truly came from could shed light on where it's headed... |
| ButchHowdy User ID: 315883 United States11/08/2007 11:52 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 11:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... I agree fully. After actually reading what Paul says, he often prefaces what he says as his own personal OPINION and does NOT claim it to be God's truth. Like when he says married people are worldly. He chose to be celibate because he thought it made his closer to God, distracted him less. We can't obviously all follow that so why do we insist on following some of his other crazy opinions. This does not mention that ALOT of what Paul taught was in direct opposition to what Jesus thought. Were Paul's letters included in the canon to keep us "in line" with a patriarchal system that excludes gays? |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 305662 United States11/08/2007 11:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... I used to think Paul was a deceived, but I know now that he wasn't...however, we know that in some things he seemed to teach opposite of what the Christ taught. We have no way of knowing if all of the words contributed to Paul actually came out of his mouth. |
| boy User ID: 323404 United States11/08/2007 11:57 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... i think spaul is loathesome. a wannabe jesus. an egomanical freak. and the creepiest thing, he is revered as a saint in the kristin realm, even tho he blatantly twisted and cast off the laws of moses. yuk, don't get me started, he's been a thorn in my side for a long time and i can't wait to come face to face with the little freak. |
| boy User ID: 323404 United States11/08/2007 12:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... |
| HardTruth User ID: 323413 United States11/08/2007 12:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... Perhaps the greatest conspiracy of all, leading to the subjugation of all "Christians" (in the organized religion sense), is that the "Church" was established by an Apostate, not an Apostle... Quoting: markusmaximusSaul of Tarsus, who later changed his name to Paul, after his conversion, resulting from a vision of Jesus... Was this guy an Apostle? Everyone calls him an Apostle, but he is NEVER mentioned in the Gospels about Jesus as an Apostle... He self-appoints himself as one though, in his letter to the Galatians, and then to the rest of the congregations... It's startling, b/c Jesus never really set up an organized church, but Paul seemed to do it on his own. Paul repeatedly said in his letters that Jesus didn't leave "instructions" regarding many of the things Paul taught, but that he himself (Paul) was qualified to make decisions (such as the role of women etc) because of, well, his closeness to Jesus... But he didn't walk side by side with Jesus...He didn't personally know him. After Judas betrayed Christ, and the remaining faithful apostles replaced Judas, but they made sure it was with someone who had been with Jesus prior to his baptism... Jesus admonished his true followers to watch out for false teachers who would come in his name and mislead MANY... Any thoughts on this? Concerning Paul Circumcision Gen 17:13 - needs to be circumcised 1Cor. 7:17-20 - circumcision is nothing Women speaking in church Exodus 15:20 - Miriam the prophetess 1Cor. 14:35 - Shame for a women to speak in church Pauls conversion Acts 9:7 - others with him heard voice but saw no man Acts 22:9 - others with him heard no voice The Righteous Gen 7:1, Exodus 23:7-8, Deut. 25:1, Psalm 7:11, 2Sam 4:11 also Enoch Paul - Romans 3:10-12 - No, not one righteous ------------------------------------------------- Let the truth be told.....though the heavens fall! -------------------------------------------------  |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205  Canada11/08/2007 12:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205 Canada11/08/2007 12:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... You're a bunch of morons..plain and simple...you read with now comprehension and context. How do u know God was speaking to Moses? Maybe Paul is the only one. As soon as you reject one part of the bible, the rest becomes suspect and then we have an end to debate. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 12:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... People who reject pauls teachings reject the words of the Lord to the gentiles and thus white people can't be saved. You idiots are shooting yourselves in the foot. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 303205No, Jesus words appear in the Gospels... Paul's words do not echo Jesus' teachings...And he admits that Jesus didn't tell him about the things he sets up as RULES for the "Christian Congregation." |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 246619  United Kingdom11/08/2007 12:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. ----- Peter said that Paul's letters were scripture. Discussion over. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 12:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... 2 Peter 3:15-16 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24661915Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. ----- Peter said that Paul's letters were scripture. Discussion over. Oh yeah, because Peter NEVER fucked up COLOSSALLY...did he? |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... You're a bunch of morons..plain and simple...you read with now comprehension and context. How do u know God was speaking to Moses? Maybe Paul is the only one. As soon as you reject one part of the bible, the rest becomes suspect and then we have an end to debate. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 303205Paul does not claim that God spoke to him. He freely admits on some issues that it is personal opinion. On issues where his "opinions" do not concur with Jesus' teaching, I'll stick with Jesus. You don't have to reject the whole bible. You can if you want. You do realize that it was pieced together, translated over and over again by men, right. It is open to mis-translation, selective messaging, etc. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... 2 Peter 3:15-16 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24661915Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. ----- Peter said that Paul's letters were scripture. Discussion over. So who the fuck is Peter? And why would his word be the final one? |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205 Canada11/08/2007 12:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... This is laughable...all you are doing is trying to take things out of context of what the scriptures actually say. God has a right to change the way he deals with man covenant-wise, in fact that was the promise of the ages. Paul's teachings are the ONLY teachings after pentecost (ie the real new testament beginning) that were to the church -mainly the Gentiles. The concept that God doesn't want liberty for his people is so assinine that I can't believe im debating this. If the law hasn't been fulfilled in Christ, then I guess we'd better start sacrificing some goats..but oh wait..theres no temple...gee, i guess we better build that too. But i guess you think that you can trick God with a physical circumcision and not a heartfelt one, right? Again i say: you're being dumb... |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205 Canada11/08/2007 12:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... Who the fuck cares?? Quoting: MoDHave you seen the threads on some days? Obviously alot of people on this forum do and this questions speaks to one of the biggest, longest running conspiracies of our time. The conspiracy of the church to create a patriarchal discriminating hierarchy that has opressed women, children, minorities, and gays. Even for a non-religious person, these ignorant views have crept in due to societal conditioning. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 221949 United States11/08/2007 12:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... The big thing that the government of Yashua's (Jesus) time were against Christ teachings because He taught Moses law on how the Gov of the people ran such as non taxing and forgiveness of debt every 7 years (wouldn't that be nice!) and other things the gov of the time had gone against. They hated Him for that and wanted Him to go away. In Paul's teaching he enforces obeying the gov... just like they want the preachers to use Rom 13 (which he wrote) in the time of Martial law... "Obey the Gov" It seems that all the denominational "differences" come largely out of Paul's writings. Also Yashua hand picked the disciples of which were 12... Paul would make 13. In the Dead Sea Scrolls it states that the Apostles actually ex communicated Paul once they caught on to his doctrine agenda. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... This is laughable...all you are doing is trying to take things out of context of what the scriptures actually say. God has a right to change the way he deals with man covenant-wise, in fact that was the promise of the ages. Paul's teachings are the ONLY teachings after pentecost (ie the real new testament beginning) that were to the church -mainly the Gentiles. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 303205The concept that God doesn't want liberty for his people is so assinine that I can't believe im debating this. If the law hasn't been fulfilled in Christ, then I guess we'd better start sacrificing some goats..but oh wait..theres no temple...gee, i guess we better build that too. But i guess you think that you can trick God with a physical circumcision and not a heartfelt one, right? Again i say: you're being dumb... So I guess we just forget what Jesus taught and stick with Paul since he is our saviour? |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 12:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... You're confused about the Gospels. they aren't the new testament. The divisions put into the bible are man made. The nature of the Gospels clearly shows that they are old testament. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 303205That's splicing irrelevant details... Jesus words were only recorded in the Gospels, which are probably somewhat whitewashed... Paul went out on his own, said that he was getting it all from God, and started mandating rules/regulations to the people who'd oringally responded to Jesus' message of love. Come on...Paul said, not Jesus, but Paul said that women are inferior to men (to be in subjection to them), that they couldn't speak in the congregations, that if they wanted to learn things they'd have to ask their husbands at home. That is laughable bullshit because Jesus message was nothing like that. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205 Canada11/08/2007 12:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... You're a bunch of morons..plain and simple...you read with now comprehension and context. How do u know God was speaking to Moses? Maybe Paul is the only one. As soon as you reject one part of the bible, the rest becomes suspect and then we have an end to debate. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 284011Paul does not claim that God spoke to him. He freely admits on some issues that it is personal opinion. On issues where his "opinions" do not concur with Jesus' teaching, I'll stick with Jesus. You don't have to reject the whole bible. You can if you want. You do realize that it was pieced together, translated over and over again by men, right. It is open to mis-translation, selective messaging, etc. Wrong. If God can't adequately communicate to man, then man is screwed in trying to understand God. end of discussion. Jesus spoke what the Father told him to. But i guess Moses and Paul were just ad-hocing it. Stupid red letter bibles. the words of Jesus are no more important than any other prophet. The key about Paul stating something was his opinion was that IT WAS PERFECTLY VALID TO STATE YOUR OPINION ON AN ISSUE THAT HAD NO BEARING ON THE DOCTRINE! He said it was his opinion right? so whats the problem? Your thinking is the problem..you're an inherent doubter who hates liberty. simple, no? You would prefer to work under the law, because then you can't "dangerously" enjoy the more than abundant life in Paul's (God's) new testament |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 323460 United States11/08/2007 12:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 148742 United States11/08/2007 12:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... The big thing that the government of Yashua's (Jesus) time were against Christ teachings because He taught Moses law on how the Gov of the people ran such as non taxing and forgiveness of debt every 7 years (wouldn't that be nice!) and other things the gov of the time had gone against. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 221949They hated Him for that and wanted Him to go away. In Paul's teaching he enforces obeying the gov... just like they want the preachers to use Rom 13 (which he wrote) in the time of Martial law... "Obey the Gov" It seems that all the denominational "differences" come largely out of Paul's writings. Also Yashua hand picked the disciples of which were 12... Paul would make 13. In the Dead Sea Scrolls it states that the Apostles actually ex communicated Paul once they caught on to his doctrine agenda. Yes, but this fact is never pointed out in churches, because it was PAUL that basically laid the foundation for an organized method of oppression of women and others. His penchant for a male-dominated hierarchy, eerily reminiscent of the Pharisees, which he was all mixed up in prior to his "conversion..." |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 303205 Canada11/08/2007 12:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... You're confused about the Gospels. they aren't the new testament. The divisions put into the bible are man made. The nature of the Gospels clearly shows that they are old testament. Quoting: markusmaximusThat's splicing irrelevant details... Jesus words were only recorded in the Gospels, which are probably somewhat whitewashed... Paul went out on his own, said that he was getting it all from God, and started mandating rules/regulations to the people who'd oringally responded to Jesus' message of love. Come on...Paul said, not Jesus, but Paul said that women are inferior to men (to be in subjection to them), that they couldn't speak in the congregations, that if they wanted to learn things they'd have to ask their husbands at home. That is laughable bullshit because Jesus message was nothing like that. No, you're just not being intelligent. God told paul to write that which applied to the church at that time period. Just because you're not smart enough and don't know God enough to realize that YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT HAVE TO COVER A WOMANS HEAD IN CHURCH is not Paul's, Jesus' or God's fault. The context is keeping peace and no divisions in the church. Be smart, you'll find the bible is actually quite clear. Pauls doctrine is right because it fits with christs teaching which fits with the promise to abraham which supersedes the law which was fulfilled in Christ and manifest on Pentecost and brought to light by Paul to the Gentiles - the mystery. Boo-ya. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 284011 United States11/08/2007 12:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Was Paul (Saul of Tarsus) an Apostle, or an Apostate?? He Self-Appointed Himself as an Apostle... Wrong. If God can't adequately communicate to man, then man is screwed in trying to understand God. end of discussion. Jesus spoke what the Father told him to. But i guess Moses and Paul were just ad-hocing it. Stupid red letter bibles. the words of Jesus are no more important than any other prophet. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 303205The key about Paul stating something was his opinion was that IT WAS PERFECTLY VALID TO STATE YOUR OPINION ON AN ISSUE THAT HAD NO BEARING ON THE DOCTRINE! He said it was his opinion right? so whats the problem? Your thinking is the problem..you're an inherent doubter who hates liberty. simple, no? You would prefer to work under the law, because then you can't "dangerously" enjoy the more than abundant life in Paul's (God's) new testament My PROBLEM is when people take his OPINION as DOCTRINE. Paul's words ARE law you idiot. He counteracted the simple message of love with rules which the "prophet" Jesus railed against. God can and did communicate to man. I suspect He gave us his Spirit because he knew that men would distort his true message throught the bible. So we can discern truth from the fleshly nature of men. |
