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A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

 
FreeFlow
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11/10/2007 02:25 PM
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A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
The Uninvited Guest
Mathew Hickley Daily Mail.co.uk November 10, 2007

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the
one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk:

[link to www.thetruthseeker.co.uk]

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
[link to www.dailymail.co.uk]
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Dervish

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11/10/2007 02:33 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
Maybe we should import weapons from China now too.
I know enough to know that I know nothing
G. House

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11/10/2007 02:33 PM

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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
I think they let the Chinese sub think they did not know it was there.

Do you get the tactic? Ignore them letting them think you can't detect them. But when the SHTF you actually do know where they are, but they don't think you can. And yes, you would use the MSM to help the enemy think that.

But if you think otherwise, all I can say is you know nothing of our capabilities.
"Everybody lies."
Dervish

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11/10/2007 02:34 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
And you know nothing about the concept of deterence.
I know enough to know that I know nothing
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:34 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
A Diesel sub snuck up on our Navy?



RIIIIIIIIGHT! They must have engage their magneto-hydro-dynamic drives engaged.

laugh
D. Bunker

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11/10/2007 02:37 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
A Diesel sub snuck up on our Navy?



RIIIIIIIIGHT! They must have engage their magneto-hydro-dynamic drives engaged.

laugh
 Quoting: King Neptune



chuckle
:savetata:


Favorite Quote - "I just fucking love outer space, it has all those planets and stars and shit." - Mister Obvious 2009
Zangtang
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11/10/2007 02:39 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
if it was truly undetected (which i find hard to believe) - thats an abject fucking disaster - affecting sea power strategy - thats big shit!!!!
D. Bunker

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11/10/2007 02:40 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
And you know nothing about the concept of deterence.
 Quoting: Dervish



Then neither do the Russians. Think about it.
:savetata:


Favorite Quote - "I just fucking love outer space, it has all those planets and stars and shit." - Mister Obvious 2009
Dervish

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11/10/2007 02:41 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
A Diesel sub snuck up on our Navy?



RIIIIIIIIGHT! They must have engage their magneto-hydro-dynamic drives engaged.

laugh
 Quoting: King Neptune



1. Thats an assumption that they only have diesel powered subs.
2. Batteries are relatively noiseless power sources.
3. Don't let your balls get in the way of your brains when it comes to issues of national defence.
I know enough to know that I know nothing
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:41 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
the US carrier didn't know it was there because the Chinese use diesel submarines.they would have been on batteries for that time and when you are using battery power they cannot be heard.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:42 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
1rof1 1rof1 1rof1
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/10/2007 02:42 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
A Diesel sub snuck up on our Navy?

 Quoting: King Neptune

Ever heard conventional subs use their electro-engines when under water?
IDW
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11/10/2007 02:43 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
Pride and arrogance.

If the navy had detected the sub, why not just say so?

They didnt. And theyre obviously concerned.

I am sure the chinese have the capability to do some serious damage to our fleet. Any countermeasure against attack can be defeated.


Its a warning.
Dervish

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11/10/2007 02:45 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
And you know nothing about the concept of deterence.



Then neither do the Russians. Think about it.
 Quoting: D. Bunker


That was a different game D. Think about it.
I know enough to know that I know nothing
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:46 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
the US carrier let them within missile range! HAHAHAHA you don't know what you're talking about!

do you realize the anti submarine warfare capabilities that the carrier battle group possess?

every carrier group has at least 1-2 submarines. in today's world it's usually two patrolling for enemy subs.

second the carrier uses the S3-viking and SeaHawk helicopter for round the clock watches for enemy subs.

if the US knew it was there they would have had a helicopter tracking it's every move from less then 1000 feet in the air.

The US didn't know it was there because the Chinese use diesel subs and at that time it would have been on battery power. You cannot detect modern day diesel subs on battery power. plus the chinese are very versatile submariners. Their way of life has always been more strict so they are dedicated to their duty.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:46 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
A Diesel sub snuck up on our Navy?



RIIIIIIIIGHT! They must have engage their magneto-hydro-dynamic drives engaged.

laugh
 Quoting: King Neptune




Diesel/electric subs are the most stealthy underwater vehicles around, when they are running on batteries. Ask anyone who has specialized in ASW. They are a bitch to track.

Know your subject before you type, dingbat.
D. Bunker

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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
That was a different game D. Think about it.
 Quoting: Dervish


Fair enough.
:savetata:


Favorite Quote - "I just fucking love outer space, it has all those planets and stars and shit." - Mister Obvious 2009
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:47 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
the US carrier let them within missile range! HAHAHAHA you don't know what you're talking about!

do you realize the anti submarine warfare capabilities that the carrier battle group possess?

every carrier group has at least 1-2 submarines. in today's world it's usually two patrolling for enemy subs.

second the carrier uses the S3-viking and SeaHawk helicopter for round the clock watches for enemy subs.

if the US knew it was there they would have had a helicopter tracking it's every move from less then 1000 feet in the air.

The US didn't know it was there because the Chinese use diesel subs and at that time it would have been on battery power. You cannot detect modern day diesel subs on battery power. plus the chinese are very versatile submariners. Their way of life has always been more strict so they are dedicated to their duty.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 189475


you're in denial

get over it
Zangtang
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11/10/2007 02:47 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
until proven otherwise, lets admit we dont know....

any navy/submariners....asw experts here?
D. Bunker

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11/10/2007 02:49 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
until proven otherwise, lets admit we dont know....

any navy/submariners....asw experts here?
 Quoting: Zangtang 323398


Yes there are.
:savetata:


Favorite Quote - "I just fucking love outer space, it has all those planets and stars and shit." - Mister Obvious 2009
CraveJamie

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11/10/2007 02:51 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
I think they're all in on it, these are scare tactics and wonderful propaganda material for lots of future brainwashing... they just want to scare the American people, get lots of people to join the military to protect ourselves from all the aliens, terrorists and hostile countries... They are just trying to scare us into thinking we need the One World Government- the Elites to rule all. They will only use our own military to oppress us when the time is right.

5a
FreeFlow  (OP)

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11/10/2007 02:53 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
It should be common technology how to track U-boats by sonar and under water radar ... the Germans felt that in WWII already.
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:54 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
I think they let the Chinese sub think they did not know it was there.

Do you get the tactic? Ignore them letting them think you can't detect them. But when the SHTF you actually do know where they are, but they don't think you can. And yes, you would use the MSM to help the enemy think that.

But if you think otherwise, all I can say is you know nothing of our capabilities.
 Quoting: G. House

Most plausible. And this explains why the Navy did not later say "We knew it was there all along." Blow the whole cover, doh!
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:55 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
The NAVY made two deadly mistakes with the CAGs:

1st: The P3-Orion was dismissed without any proper replacement in the ASubW role. Detecting and engaging subs with Seahawks is too slow, too little, too little range, no MAD, and therefore simply too late just like run out a torpedo with a snake.

2nd: The F14 Tomcat was dismissed without a proper replacement. The F/A 18 (Super?) Hornets did NOT have anything like the Phoenix missile in the AAW theatre - their AMRAAMs are like trying to shoot down incoming missiles or Russian Backfire bombers with Mikado sticks - launched from a Platform - the F/A 18 - that has not enougth fuel to circle the Carrier twice after start.

These two factors will cost Carriers. Sooner - or later.
G. House

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11/10/2007 02:57 PM

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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
the US carrier let them within missile range! HAHAHAHA you don't know what you're talking about!

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 189475


Well since were not at war, what would you expect them to do? It is the open seas, they can go anywhere they want.

During the Cold War there were many instances of Russian Navy ships actually colliding with US Navy ships.

It's a tactic, draw them in thinking they can get away with it, but if the ballon goes up you just kill them.

Also the Chinese sub wasn't aware of the US Navy nuclear attack sub following in their baffles ready to blow them away if they opened their torpedo doors
"Everybody lies."
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:57 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
Being married into a family of submarine commanders and captains (UK) I can tell you that this has caused alot of debate around the dinner table over the last few days.

The Song class are dealy efficient attack boats, and the Chinese have a very, VERY nasty habit of bottom dwelling at idol, and then as a fleet passes over, attacking en mass like german wolf packs used to.

This is a message of the strongest calibre: fuck with us at your peril.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 02:59 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
This is OLD, and I mean OLD news!!!

Why on earth is this pinned???1dunno1

This happened LAST November. They were also undetected until they surfaced just fyi...

Shortly after that (about 2 weeks) The Soviet sent their stealth bombers on a "routine exercise" in which they made it to within 15 miles of US airspace before they were intercepted by fully armed US and Canadian warplanes.

Both incidences are disturbing in regards to detection. For those who are naive and think that the USSR is weak and not a threat to the US. Take it from someone who was in the position to tell you that you could not be farther from the truth.

15 miles from US airspace is too late btw.

Their cruise missiles are nuclear capable.

The stealth bombers they were using carry those nuclear cruise missiles

and those cruise missiles are very high tech and have incredible speed.
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 03:00 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
any navy/submariners....asw experts here?
 Quoting: Zangtang 323398


Somebody go find Sean Connery!

Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 03:00 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
Chinese Navy: [link to www.sinodefence.com]

And yes it's possible they allowed the sub within range knowing it and/or others were merely "investigating/observing".

Actually firing on said U.S. vessel would be a major international incident (nominated for understatement of the year) and wasn't going to happen at this time ;)
Anonymous Coward
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11/10/2007 03:01 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
special LEAD paint on Submarine makes Chinese STEALTH...
FreeFlow  (OP)

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11/10/2007 03:02 PM
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Re: A Chinese submarine surfaces right in middle of U.S. Navy Carrier exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
This is OLD, and I mean OLD news!!!

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612

The article is from today and it says 'recent exercises' not last year ...
I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ...