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Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!

 
(M&M)
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Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!

Whenever a topic like this comes up, a lot of people think that some of us are saying that we are saved by observing the Law.

That is NOT what we are saying.

The apostle Paul certainly understood this distinction.

In Romans 3, he first tells us that salvation is apart from the Law:

Romans 3:21-24

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Then later on in chapter 3 he answers the 64,000 dollar question:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law?

According to the apostle Paul, the answer is NO!

What about Yahshua (Jesus)? What did He have to say on this matter?:

Matthew 5:17-19

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Listen to what Jesus says.

Be very careful when you ever think about preaching against the commandments of God.

People are so quick to look at the Bible and say "this part is not for today" or "God doesn't work that way today". The reality is that it is all one book and it is all one continuous program.

Let us embrace the whole counsel of God and let us embrace the One True Almighty God - The King Of The Universe.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 04:42 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/14/2007 04:49 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 284011



Exactly.

Their teachings He was talking about were the Talmud and the other "traditions" which had been added to the Torah.

The Torah is the Word of God, while the Talmud and the other "traditions" are simply the traditions of men which rabbis tried to add on top of the Word of God.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 04:51 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!

Whenever a topic like this comes up, a lot of people think that some of us are saying that we are saved by observing the Law.

That is NOT what we are saying.

The apostle Paul certainly understood this distinction.

In Romans 3, he first tells us that salvation is apart from the Law:

Romans 3:21-24

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Then later on in chapter 3 he answers the 64,000 dollar question:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law?

According to the apostle Paul, the answer is NO!

What about Yahshua (Jesus)? What did He have to say on this matter?:

Matthew 5:17-19

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Listen to what Jesus says.

Be very careful when you ever think about preaching against the commandments of God.

People are so quick to look at the Bible and say "this part is not for today" or "God doesn't work that way today". The reality is that it is all one book and it is all one continuous program.

Let us embrace the whole counsel of God and let us embrace the One True Almighty God - The King Of The Universe.
 Quoting: (M&M) 209736

stfu
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/14/2007 04:53 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
stfu
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 326287



Please feel free to call me whatever you want.

I am just glad that you visited this thread and that the truth is a little closer to penetrating your heart.

Peace to you.
gooderboy

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11/14/2007 04:53 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
... very weird, lol, very weird indeed.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 04:55 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 284011



Amen!

The commandments deal with #1) our relationship with God and #2) our relationship with each other.

In fact, if you look at the Ten Commandments, the first four deal with our relationship with God, and the last six deal with our relationships with each other.
HardTruth

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11/14/2007 05:19 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP. Why do you choose the name M&M? Thats 1313. Thirteen is the number of rebellion.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 05:21 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven...."



would surely figured they'd have been damned to hell.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/14/2007 05:25 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP. Why do you choose the name M&M? Thats 1313. Thirteen is the number of rebellion.
 Quoting: HardTruth



It has nothing to do with 1313.

So what if it is the 13th letter in the alphabet?

Means nothing.

What matters is the truth and people here finding it.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Your a moron. So what about the end times when all religions including chrisitanity is illegal. Hey better follow the law Paul sad so. You can break a commandement though shall not kill for war. I don'r remember verses's but you can break unnust laws that repress your faith.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 05:30 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Amen!

The commandments deal with #1) our relationship with God and #2) our relationship with each other.

In fact, if you look at the Ten Commandments, the first four deal with our relationship with God, and the last six deal with our relationships with each other.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 209736

Thanks for pointing that out genius. The point is fuck what Paul says. Jesus said fulfill those two and the rest will fall in line. No reason to create manmade rules to "show" you love. What's in the heart matters. Paul was a lover of rules, a false prophet. Who cares what he said.
HardTruth

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11/14/2007 05:31 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Your YHWH bound us with his law. Youre Jesus freed us from those laws. Paul stole his apostleship. The KJV is full of errors, I refuse to have it judge me or lead me.

Religion is nothing more than part of the divide and conquer that rules mankind. End of story.



___________

Let the truth be told... though the heavens fall!


alone
THE DOOM

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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP...you are just like all those OTHER law obsessed fruitcakes..

Perhaps if you read it IN CONTEXT you would see how much of a twisted decieving self obsessed liar you are..just like the rest of them.(Law obsessed ones...sabbath freaks ect)

Ive read the bible a thousand times..I know it backwards...and YOU are a lying twisted deciving charlatan..ONCE again taking things OUT of context to justify your miserable adherance to code of law done away with years ago.

Sick of all you false teachers..liars the lot of you..twisting peoples minds to justify your own obsession with SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because IN the end thats what its all about..SELF SELF SELF..you could care LESS about anyone or anything else except to PUSH your fake and false views on the uneducated...MOST people dont KNOW the bible too well..thus you vipers TWIST the words to mean what you want..you have not got the GUTS to expound IN CONTEXT...for it would expose you all as the filthy LIARS you ARE!!!

And dont make the mistake of CHALLENGING ME....you will be TORN to SHREDS in PUBLIC.....I can disprove EVERY LIE..using scripture..ones that YOU lot seem to AVOID..because it BURSTS YOUR BUBBLE!!!

Just take your lies elsewhere...or be publicly exposed for ALL TO SEE...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/14/2007 05:34 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Your a moron. So what about the end times when all religions including chrisitanity is illegal. Hey better follow the law Paul sad so. You can break a commandement though shall not kill for war. I don'r remember verses's but you can break unnust laws that repress your faith.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 324559



I am not a moron.

Yes, we obey God rather than man as it says in the book of Acts.

That is what Paul did too (read the book of Acts).

We do need to get ready for the end times.

Times are going to be harder than anyone can imagine.
ButchHowdy

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11/14/2007 05:58 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Jesus says YES: Luke 16:16

Because He knew that adherence to the law (Through frustration) would lead to Him.
Anonymous Coward
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11/14/2007 06:08 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
so even jesus didn't condemn even those who taught against stuff and taught other to also, to hell.

odd that.

funny that, eh?


when people speak of law they always seem to settle on the ten commandments. have you ever really read all the laws? the laws of eating/bathing/dying/sickness. if you speak of following the law then all of these must surely be attended to also? how many laws are there? ten? 300? 600 plus? one cannot go through life without breaking at least one and if one is broken all are broken, so is said.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 10:19 AM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
so even jesus didn't condemn even those who taught against stuff and taught other to also, to hell.

odd that.

funny that, eh?


when people speak of law they always seem to settle on the ten commandments. have you ever really read all the laws? the laws of eating/bathing/dying/sickness. if you speak of following the law then all of these must surely be attended to also? how many laws are there? ten? 300? 600 plus? one cannot go through life without breaking at least one and if one is broken all are broken, so is said.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 142490



Jesus talked about hell more than anyone else in the Bible

Read the Bible and see
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/16/2007 11:34 AM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Get Ready For A Culture Shock - You Will Celebrate Sabbath, New Moon And The Festivals After Jesus The Messiah Returns:

Thread: Christians! Get Ready For A Culture Shock - You Will Celebrate Sabbath, New Moon And The Festivals After Jesus The Messiah Returns
Anonymous Coward
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11/16/2007 02:26 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
peace unto those that seek peace

Paul says:


"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."


-Galatians 2:19, KJV

paul commands that his followers be dead unto the law.



he is the lawless one that st. James and st. peter wrote to each other about and described him as the liar that jesus warned them about before he went up to heaven.

but that is another story
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2007 11:45 AM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
peace unto those that seek peace

Paul says:


"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."


-Galatians 2:19, KJV

paul commands that his followers be dead unto the law.



he is the lawless one that st. James and st. peter wrote to each other about and described him as the liar that jesus warned them about before he went up to heaven.

but that is another story
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 327321



Sorry, but Paul himself followed the Law:

Acts 25:8

8Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2007 11:53 AM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Use your brain, OP. Think. Think. Think. When have you EVER had a prayer answered? Do you know of ANY prayer that has been answered in anything more than a lucky chance way?
You are effectively neutralized if you spend your mental energy learning useless religious propaganda, or even worse, you are lead where they want to lead you. Mentally neutralized people seem willing to vote for someone who claims to be one of "them" and says that God speaks to them, or even though them.
If God is speaking to any of us, it is the quiet spirit inside that tells you right from wrong.
Hint: killing people is wrong.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2007 12:06 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Use your brain, OP. Think. Think. Think. When have you EVER had a prayer answered? Do you know of ANY prayer that has been answered in anything more than a lucky chance way?
You are effectively neutralized if you spend your mental energy learning useless religious propaganda, or even worse, you are lead where they want to lead you. Mentally neutralized people seem willing to vote for someone who claims to be one of "them" and says that God speaks to them, or even though them.
If God is speaking to any of us, it is the quiet spirit inside that tells you right from wrong.
Hint: killing people is wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 327932



I don't know about you, but I have had tons of prayers answered.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2007 12:08 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Use your brain, OP. Think. Think. Think. When have you EVER had a prayer answered? Do you know of ANY prayer that has been answered in anything more than a lucky chance way?
You are effectively neutralized if you spend your mental energy learning useless religious propaganda, or even worse, you are lead where they want to lead you. Mentally neutralized people seem willing to vote for someone who claims to be one of "them" and says that God speaks to them, or even though them.
If God is speaking to any of us, it is the quiet spirit inside that tells you right from wrong.
Hint: killing people is wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 327932


I agree, for most of us this type of thinking,(Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!)
leads nowhere!
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2007 12:51 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP...you are just like all those OTHER law obsessed fruitcakes..

Perhaps if you read it IN CONTEXT you would see how much of a twisted decieving self obsessed liar you are..just like the rest of them.(Law obsessed ones...sabbath freaks ect)

Ive read the bible a thousand times..I know it backwards...and YOU are a lying twisted deciving charlatan..ONCE again taking things OUT of context to justify your miserable adherance to code of law done away with years ago.

Sick of all you false teachers..liars the lot of you..twisting peoples minds to justify your own obsession with SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because IN the end thats what its all about..SELF SELF SELF..you could care LESS about anyone or anything else except to PUSH your fake and false views on the uneducated...MOST people dont KNOW the bible too well..thus you vipers TWIST the words to mean what you want..you have not got the GUTS to expound IN CONTEXT...for it would expose you all as the filthy LIARS you ARE!!!

And dont make the mistake of CHALLENGING ME....you will be TORN to SHREDS in PUBLIC.....I can disprove EVERY LIE..using scripture..ones that YOU lot seem to AVOID..because it BURSTS YOUR BUBBLE!!!

Just take your lies elsewhere...or be publicly exposed for ALL TO SEE...
 Quoting: THE DOOM



Yes, it is indeed true that the OP is quoting out of context. The OP cites the last verse of Romans chapter 3 to uphold his thesis -- and then he neglects to continue on to chapter 4 which explains and expounds upon Rom. 3:31 ("we uphold the law").

Chapter 4 makes it plain that Paul is not even referring specifically to the torah law, but to the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament (the OT was subdivided into the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms). How so? Paul cites the book of Genesis, and explains how Abraham was saved via faith and grace, hundreds of years before the torah law was imparted at Mt. Sinai. What is being "upheld" is salvation by faith as foreshadowed by the story of Abraham.

So we see that the passage actually says the opposite of what the OP tries to make it say, and it in no way is referring to the torah. Context is everything.

Romans 4:13-14 summarizes what Paul was saying: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect ..."

And as far as the Matthew 5 passage the OP cites, he again quotes only a portion of the passage. Only two of the examples Jesus gave in Matthew 5 regarding the law were from the 10 commandments -- the rest were from other portions of the torah. It means that if one is going to make law orientation his rule of life, he had better keep all 613 of the torah laws, every jot and tittle, perfectly.

I wonder if the OP does that.
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2007 01:01 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP...you are just like all those OTHER law obsessed fruitcakes..

Perhaps if you read it IN CONTEXT you would see how much of a twisted decieving self obsessed liar you are..just like the rest of them.(Law obsessed ones...sabbath freaks ect)

Ive read the bible a thousand times..I know it backwards...and YOU are a lying twisted deciving charlatan..ONCE again taking things OUT of context to justify your miserable adherance to code of law done away with years ago.

Sick of all you false teachers..liars the lot of you..twisting peoples minds to justify your own obsession with SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because IN the end thats what its all about..SELF SELF SELF..you could care LESS about anyone or anything else except to PUSH your fake and false views on the uneducated...MOST people dont KNOW the bible too well..thus you vipers TWIST the words to mean what you want..you have not got the GUTS to expound IN CONTEXT...for it would expose you all as the filthy LIARS you ARE!!!

And dont make the mistake of CHALLENGING ME....you will be TORN to SHREDS in PUBLIC.....I can disprove EVERY LIE..using scripture..ones that YOU lot seem to AVOID..because it BURSTS YOUR BUBBLE!!!

Just take your lies elsewhere...or be publicly exposed for ALL TO SEE...
 Quoting: THE DOOM


Wow Doom, I've never seen you so upset.

You got a problem with keeping Sabbath or somethin?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2007 01:10 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
OP...you are just like all those OTHER law obsessed fruitcakes..

Perhaps if you read it IN CONTEXT you would see how much of a twisted decieving self obsessed liar you are..just like the rest of them.(Law obsessed ones...sabbath freaks ect)

Ive read the bible a thousand times..I know it backwards...and YOU are a lying twisted deciving charlatan..ONCE again taking things OUT of context to justify your miserable adherance to code of law done away with years ago.

Sick of all you false teachers..liars the lot of you..twisting peoples minds to justify your own obsession with SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS...because IN the end thats what its all about..SELF SELF SELF..you could care LESS about anyone or anything else except to PUSH your fake and false views on the uneducated...MOST people dont KNOW the bible too well..thus you vipers TWIST the words to mean what you want..you have not got the GUTS to expound IN CONTEXT...for it would expose you all as the filthy LIARS you ARE!!!

And dont make the mistake of CHALLENGING ME....you will be TORN to SHREDS in PUBLIC.....I can disprove EVERY LIE..using scripture..ones that YOU lot seem to AVOID..because it BURSTS YOUR BUBBLE!!!

Just take your lies elsewhere...or be publicly exposed for ALL TO SEE...



Yes, it is indeed true that the OP is quoting out of context. The OP cites the last verse of Romans chapter 3 to uphold his thesis -- and then he neglects to continue on to chapter 4 which explains and expounds upon Rom. 3:31 ("we uphold the law").

Chapter 4 makes it plain that Paul is not even referring specifically to the torah law, but to the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament (the OT was subdivided into the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms). How so? Paul cites the book of Genesis, and explains how Abraham was saved via faith and grace, hundreds of years before the torah law was imparted at Mt. Sinai. What is being "upheld" is salvation by faith as foreshadowed by the story of Abraham.

So we see that the passage actually says the opposite of what the OP tries to make it say, and it in no way is referring to the torah. Context is everything.

Romans 4:13-14 summarizes what Paul was saying: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect ..."

And as far as the Matthew 5 passage the OP cites, he again quotes only a portion of the passage. Only two of the examples Jesus gave in Matthew 5 regarding the law were from the 10 commandments -- the rest were from other portions of the torah. It means that if one is going to make law orientation his rule of life, he had better keep all 613 of the torah laws, every jot and tittle, perfectly.

I wonder if the OP does that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 163819



Of course nobody is sinless.

That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah.

And you really need to know something about a subject before you post.

Torah = The first five books of the Bible

Please be advised
Anonymous Coward
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11/19/2007 01:25 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Of course nobody is sinless.

That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah.

And you really need to know something about a subject before you post.

Torah = The first five books of the Bible

Please be advised
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 209736



I know exactly what I'm talking about. You yourself are in confusion and denial.

And I know that "law" and "torah" have general as well as specific meanings and applications, and are not always referred to in the same sense. In this case, Romans 3:31 is NOT referring to the torah law, as you deceptively imply. That is very obvious by reading right along into chapter four of Romans.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
People keep bringing up the Torah here as if the rest of the Tanach, Old Testament did not even exist.

What laws be there even in the Torah, bunches. But not all of those laws first came with the Laws of Moses.

Consider the Laws of God as given to Adam: it was given to Adam and by extension to Eve. The first one was given to Adam and Eve and applicable only to those two. There were are those of the opinon that law of marriage was yet another commandment given in the Garden, but, and if so, a death sentence was not yet given at that time for breaking it. Did that law say anything prohibiting incest, or adultery or murder, No. It did not. Did that law prescribe Sabbaths and Feasts, No, it did not, and I challenge anyone to find anyplace in the entire Tanach where it says the Laws of Moses applied to Adam and Eve, and Cain and Seth, and all their families even upto the time of Noah. Wherein is it commanded to Adam that he was to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy? Where is it in the volume of the Book? Go to you sluggards, search the Torah, you will not find it there that Adam was ever given such a law.

Consider the Laws of God as given to Noah to be given to all of his sons and daughters and by extenstion the whole of all mankind.

Consider the Laws of God as given to Abraham to be given to all of the sons of Abraham, Issac and Ishmael to pass on down the line to their children, and yet not to the rest of the families of the Earth.

Consider the Laws of God as given to Moses to give to the children of Israel, and yet not to the other sons of Abraham.

Considering the Laws of Moses, i.e., those that are given from the very start of the Exodus upto the very time of the crossing the Jordan into the land of promise. How many of those specific laws are there presented?

The Ten Commandments are often cited because these are the Moral laws. These define for the follower of Jehovah what is moral and what is not moral. Several of the Ten have an early death sentence attached to them later on when the case law is developed, like adultery was later given a death sentence attachment, as was beastiality, as was murder, as was rape. The unfolding of the case law becomes a further extension of those Ten Commandments, yet we find that the Sabbath and Feast laws are some of the very first ones given to the Children of Israel even before they crossed the Sea.

(And as far as racism is concerned, most miss the fact that the sons of Joseph were half Egyptian and half Israelite and it was their mother that was Egyptian whose father was a priest of On, yet they too are reckoned among the Twelve Tribes - so much for concepts of racial purity.)

Speaking of the death sentence we find that it was first pronounced upon Adam, of all people. Adam had only one law to follow, don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He could touch it all he wanted, he could climb that tree, and sleep in its shade (so to speak) but he was not ever to eat of its fruit. (whether this was a symbolic or a literal tree, I do not profess to know). Point is, one law. One commandment, only one, and it had a death sentence attached to it from the start. Adam still broke it and dying he died. It took a while, his dying, according to the book took a long while but the whole time after eating it he was in the processing of dying, and yet Adam died within his day. Once that process of dying was complete, he was dead.

Go back to the very foundation of commandments of God, in order to understand the Laws of God, go back to the Garden of Eden.

The account of Abraham is laid out in the Torah, that is to say the so called "Five books of Moses". 430 years before the giving of the so called Law of Moses, Jehovah had given rules, regulations, ordinances, and even commandments to Abraham.

Yet, today we only hear people speaking of the Torah, as if it only contained the Laws that Moses was given to give to the Children of Israel. Why? What is the hang up. What are they so fixated upon in that cluster of laws, that even God has stated not even the Children of Israel could faithfully keep... He three times at Mt. Sinai told them that they WOULD break it, they didn't believe Him. What is the hangup with it? Are the descendants and followers of the Law of Moses still trying to prove God wrong? It would seem they are calling their God a liar. They will break it, again and again, even now. That Law of Moses will slay them, they will be dead under its death sentences, because they WILL break it, at least once, and it only takes once, because you only die in this flesh and blood body once.

And among those that would follow that Law of Jehovah which He gave to Moses to give to the Children of Israel there remains at this time 2,007 A.D. no further animal sacrifice for sin as they cannot make any sin offering nor observe the Atonement without the Temple being in place, now can they? No, not even so much as a bread offering. It would seem that they are in quite a mess. Lost in their sins. It would seem Jehovah has them caught in His net. They have lived now in exile for a longer time than they formerly had even been a people. Ya, think they would get a clue.


UNLESS, they appeal to the statement of Jehovah that He will forgive those that repent and seek out His pardon, and that He will make righteous in His eyes whosoever He feel like. You don't seek a pardon unless nor until you have already been convicted, do you? Forgiveness is a pardon, in some cases a stay of execution even. And yet it is found that all have sinned, all are worthy of execution, for Jehovah has found everyone guilty of breaking His Laws and not just of breaking the Laws of Moses which were only given to the Children of Israel, either. Therefore all mankind dies, because the death sentence executed upon Adam is also executed upon all mankind, because all mankind breaks the Law of Jehovah, unless your view be Christian, in which case Jesus the Christ did not break any Law of God, that given to Moses or otherwise, and the Christian believes that Jesus the Christ died too, just like everyone else and yet because of his lawfullness in believing Jehovah was raised up from the dead to live an everlasting life.

Let's see now, 430 years in Egypt, only to wind up as slaves to the Egyptians. 70 years in Babylon for rampant and continous disobediance. 1,937 years in exile in "Rome"... and no Temple in which to peform their services that would allow them to keep to the full the Laws of Moses that were given to them, in fact no land to even call their own until 1,945 A.D. held even for many centuries from knowing even when the 1st of the Abib was. How long will that People stay hard hearted? When their hearts shall return to Jehovah and not when only a few of their bodies have returned to the land, When their hearts shall return to Jehovah and repent of the wrong He has convicted them for, all of it, then will they be returned to their land. The "State of Israel" that now is is not the Israel of Jehovah, we can know that because of all the iniquity that people and government in that land are committing. It is obvious to everyone that thier heart has not returned to their God.

And if you study the Tanach, you will find that no where is there even given a clue as to date or number of years, when this exile will end. But they are given a sign, whenever all of their heart return to Jehovah and His Laws (as in plural, and not just the Laws of Moses), and yet, the Tanach does say they will be given a further sign. Seek out from the Tanach for yourselves what that other sign shall be, its in there. Signs are given for a stubborn and rebellious people, consider the words of Jeremiah one of their prophets, and again the words of Isaiah another of their prophets. Yes, they focus on the Torah so they will not have to consider the last two of their prophets, and I don't mean Jeremiah nor Isaiah.

And for all of that, for all the exile, for the lack of Temple and Land, there are those who keep claiming they and all of mankind must return to the Law of Moses as given to the Children of Israel, when indeed they CANNOT... God has not yet even allowed it. It is He who will return their hearts back to Him when He is good and ready to do it, and not until then. It appears then that their own God has them in a vice, between a rock and a hard place. There must be something that they are missing, but it sure isn't a desire to keep ordinances and regulations and the findings of "case law" found in the whole of the Laws of Moses the very thing which God is preventing them from doing so completely, no, it must be something else, it certainly in not to be found in the observances of feast days and offerings and sacrifices. There is much more to the Laws of Moses than merely those, much much more. Feed the hungery, cloth the naked, take care of the poor and widows and orphans, charge no usury, no interest on loans, no compound interest on loans. Pay your workmen DAILY. Be kind to animals, be kinder to other people. Treat the stranger in your land with fairness and kindess, love your enemies, speak truth, do not lie, and foremost love Jehovah your God and worship Him only, this is the heart of the Law of Moses, all the rest is just so much commentary.

A summation cannot exist is there is nothing to sum up.

Does the law of the weekly sabbath as based on the first visible crescent of the New Moon, predate even the Law of Moses? Or was it first established in that Law of Moses? Search the Torah, search the Tanach, determine for yourselves.

Indeed, go to the Law of Moses, but don't stop there, read the whole of the Tanach... aka, the Old Testament, it is called Old because Jehovah himself told the Children of Israel that He would make a New Convenant, a New Testament with them, and that those who agreed to its new terms would receive its new blessings which would far outstrip the blessings of the older one that the Children of Israel had formerly entered into.

In a figure of speech bascially, God will remove the virus of sin out from the Human Operating System and purge the trojans and worms from among the Human operating system and its communications systems, the virus that was introduced when Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Alogorically, think of that fruit as containing a virus that totally messed up Adam, Eve, and even mutated and infected the Human Genepool that was in Adam.

Is the Law of Moses then dead? In No Way. Does it then apply to all Mankind? In No Way. It applies only to those who entered into it, and under its terms, it also applies to all of their descendants (and only those which under its terms it defines as their descendants) and even their descendant are not the only people on Earth.

Since we speak of descendants, can we then list these long and endless geneologies whereby we "prove" or "disprove" that we are or are not one of the descendants of the Children of Israel? I dare anyone to trace back all of their roots to even 15 generations ago.. and name all of their ancestors, every last one of them. And even at 100 years per generation that will take you only back to 507 A.D. And at 15 generations back you could have as many as 16,384 unique ancestors at 20 over a Million. So, take no heed to endless geneologies which attempt to show that you are or are not a descendant of at least one of Twelve Tribes.

Tell me 'o' White supremist, if a man has 1/16,384th black in him is he Black or White?

Tell me 'o' Black supremist, if a man has 1/16,384th white in him is he White or Black?

Tell me 'o' Nazi occultist and theologian, if a man has 1/16,384th Jew in him is he German or Jew?

Tell me 'o' Konan if a man has 1/16,384th of a goyim in him is he Jew or Goyim?

Tell me 'o' Earthling, if a man has 1/16,384th Klingon in him, is he Human or Klingon?

It "race" thing gets truely absurd.

Is this not one of the two purposes for the Human Genonome Project? Be that as it is, there is a Reason the Jehovah will have His Angels do the Harvest of Mankind. The Creator is the only one that can know all the DNA base pair combinations and lengths for all of the life that exists on Earth and throughout the whole of creation. Man cannot now, nor ever will be privy to that knowledge. The other purpose of the HGP is to build a SuperMan Race, which will then just serve to become new fals Elohiym, "gods-goddesses" to rule as "gods" among the "less enhanced". Yes, your tax dollars support this, if have paid taxes to the US Government as well as others.

Given all that, and in a figure of speech, how do you know that you don't have three DNA base pairs that are in fact Reptilian from the Draco Star System? I say in a figure of speech that you could have it, and no one on Earth could ever figure out that you did. Why? Because we have no clue what such Reptilian Draconian DNA would be to compare Human with Draconian.

The question the OP asks is ill framed.

I think he means to ask: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law of Moses?

Because it sure does not nullify the Laws of Noah, nor the Laws of Abraham. It in no way nullifies the Law of Abraham, nor the Law of Noah. Abraham believe God and believe that whatever God said to him and promised to him was true and to be acted on. Noah believed God when God told him there would be such a flood none would survive but he and his wife, and their three sons, and three daughters in law. In both cases and because of such faith in God, God deemed them righteous enough. They both did what their god, their object of worship, which in their case was Jehovah, told them to do.

In no way does the Law of Moses nullify the law of faith, for even Nebchadanezzer, King of Babylon, became to have faith in Jehovah, and Jehovah eventually blessed him for it. And the King of Babylon was in no way from among the Childern of Israel nor was he a "Jewish" Proseletyte, nor is it ever recorded that the King of Babylon became circumsised in his flesh.

Of course the strict Torahites, I guess have not read the rest of the Tanach, any more then the "King James Version is the Only God Breathed Word" aka the "James Gang" have read the other English Bible translations. But then some of these Torahites would call for the stoning of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and Daniel and Ezekiel as false prophects as well, given the chance and who was John the Baptist to them but a "false" prophet. Just as some of the James Gang would burn those of the NIV gang at the stake, given half a chance, and would call it and act of "love" to send their bodies and souls to the flames.
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11/19/2007 05:40 PM
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Re: Does our faith in Christ nullify the Law? The Apostle Paul says NO!
Sorry, but Paul himself followed the Law:

Acts 25:8

8Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 209736

Charles Manson: "I have broken no laws of the State of California, nor the Federal Government." I am an innocent man.

Both the common defense of those both that are guilty and of those that are innocent. I am surprised you came across with such a weak defense of Paul.