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A Serious Astrological Question for GLP: The Classical Elements & the Zodiac | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 80125133  United States05/07/2021 12:44 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
LTHN.  User ID: 80225570  Canada05/07/2021 12:46 AM  Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Sorry, beyond my pay grade, can’t help you on this one. "A wise man listens to the message and uses his logic and discernment to process it, a fool negates the message by prejudging the messenger." "He whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere." |
| Agent 99 User ID: 77082640 United States05/07/2021 12:49 AM  Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 12:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I have found no such statement on the classical elements in relation to the zodiacal triplicities in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos 4 books Dorotheus's Carmen Astrologicum 3 books Minilius's Astronomicon 5 books Nothing. Not one word on this subject. It simply isn't there. And since it isn't there, I'm seriously wondering where it is. And if it's not in any of these works, why do people keep copying and pasting that it is in these works? |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 12:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Manilius and Dorotheus were poets, not astrologers. Quoting: Agent 99 The order of Fire, Earth, Water, Air is important why? Both were poets and astrologers Both wrote astrological poems My question is not on the importance of Fire, Earth, Water, and Air. My question is WHERE in Dorotheus, Manilius, or Ptolemy are these classical elements described in direct relation to the triplicities of the zodiac. Because I'm not finding them anywhere in these works. |
| Khepera User ID: 80304745 United States05/07/2021 12:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | astrological knowledge belongs to us who hail of Khemet, who studied under the Dhwtj, the greek fools called our sage Hermes the Thrice great and yet where they there when he pursed his lips? I was, in fact i was the one who posed the question why should I even answer your question when you descend from those theives anyways, the lessons fromt he Temple of Karnak are not free Go study with the indians, their vedic system is but a shadow of what we know and theyll be closer than the greeks ver where, but your forgiven you think they know something since there white. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 12:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Your wasting your time learning from the greeks, they got their stolen art from the remains of what was burned by the arabs from egypt, Quoting: Khepera 80304745 astrological knowledge belongs to us who hail of Khemet, who studied under the Dhwtj, the greek fools called our sage Hermes the Thrice great and yet where they there when he pursed his lips? I was, in fact i was the one who posed the question why should I even answer your question when you descend from those theives anyways, the lessons fromt he Temple of Karnak are not free Go study with the indians, their vedic system is but a shadow of what we know and theyll be closer than the greeks ver where, but your forgiven you think they know something since there white. Ok, yeah, that wasn't my question. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 12:57 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is a big problem because without a substantial quote, there is nothing I'm finding to say that, for example, Libra shouldn't be a Water sign as opposed to Air. WHERE are the ancient quotes on Elements and Zodiac signs? WHERE are they? List them. Where? I'm seriously asking. Are they even there or are they a modern invention? |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 01:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation |  I'm going to keep bumping this for a few days to see if anyone out there can actually come up with a relevant ancient quote on the classical elements in relation to the zodiac. Because it's not in any of the sources that it is said to be in. Not one. And I'm seriously beginning to wonder if it even exists or is just new-age hack anachronism. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 01:10 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The problem I'm having is that the Chronicle of Jerahmeel (most probably originally dating all the way back to the 2nd or 3rd century C.E. with a copy editor around the 7th century) does have a specific statement on the classical elements in relation to the triplicities. Except it's not the same as the modern accepted standard. Chronicle of Jerahmeel, Chapter LIII Fire - Aries, Leo, Sagittarius Earth - Taurus, Virgo, Capricornus Water - Gemini, Libra, Aquarius Air - Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 80304745 United States05/07/2021 01:12 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Your wasting your time learning from the greeks, they got their stolen art from the remains of what was burned by the arabs from egypt, Quoting: Khepera 80304745 astrological knowledge belongs to us who hail of Khemet, who studied under the Dhwtj, the greek fools called our sage Hermes the Thrice great and yet where they there when he pursed his lips? I was, in fact i was the one who posed the question why should I even answer your question when you descend from those theives anyways, the lessons fromt he Temple of Karnak are not free Go study with the indians, their vedic system is but a shadow of what we know and theyll be closer than the greeks ver where, but your forgiven you think they know something since there white. Ok, yeah, that wasn't my question. and yet you received the answer, its beyond the greeks understanding therefore you wont find it, only us old souls still have the knowledge mwhahahhaa |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 01:14 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In the Chronicle of Jerahmeel, I find something unique - a veritable ancient quote on the then understood elemental correspondences to the zodiacal triplicities. It is at odds with the modern accepted paradigm. I'm looking for the supposed ancient quotes upon which the modern accepted paradigm was based and I find none. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 01:35 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The earliest direction reference that I can find to the modern accepted paradigm of elemental zodiac triplicity correspondences in in Lilly's Christian Astrology, 1647. My next question is where is Lilly get that idea, because it wasn't from Ptolemy. I find no other reference earlier than Lilly in 1647. [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 80304745 United States05/07/2021 01:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The earliest direction reference that I can find to the modern accepted paradigm of elemental zodiac triplicity correspondences in in Lilly's Christian Astrology, 1647. My next question is where is Lilly get that idea, because it wasn't from Ptolemy. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80125133 I find no other reference earlier than Lilly in 1647. [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] the nonsense your looking for is in the tarot deck, obviously in that era the fools were only learning from copy pasta |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 02:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 02:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is curious and I have no idea where the transition to the modern interpretation came in, but it apparently was not the original Qabalistic understanding around the 2nd or 3rd century when the Chronicle of Jerahmeel was first penned. |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 02:36 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Mather's isn't even close to right in his tribal correspondences and from what I can see, he simply follows Lilly's elemental attributions to the triplicities. It's painfully obvious that Mathers referred to no historical Qabalistic source in this lecture but simply invented his correspondences from his own head. MacGregor Mathers Lecture for the Order of the Golden Dawn preserved among the papers of Rev W.E. Ayton Gad - Aries Ephraim - Taurus Manasseh - Gemini Isaachar - Cancer Judah - Leo Naphali - Virgo Asher - Libra Dan - Scorpio Benjamin - Sagittarius Zebulon - Capricorn Reuben - Aquarius Simeon & Levi - Pisces |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 02:39 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The 14th century Yalkut Simoni appears to simply list the names in order of the zodiac without any historical reference. There are no elemental correspondences either. Yalkut Simoni Num. 418 01 Judah - Aries - East 02 Issachar - Taurus - East 03 Zebulun - Gemini - East 04 Reuben - Cancer - South 05 Simeon - Leo - South 06 Gad - Virgo - South 07 Ephraim - Libra - West 08 Menasseh - Scorpio - West 09 Benhamin - Saggitarius - West 10 Dan - Capricornus North 11 Asher - Aquarius - North 12 Naphali - Pisces - North |
| Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 80125133 United States05/07/2021 02:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It something close to amazing to me that the single oldest reference in the entire world to elemental attributes of zodiac triplicities I am able to trace down is in none other than the Chronicle of Jerahmeel. What is truly amazing is that this work has a specific plan of the marching order of the ancient tribes in direct correspondence to the 4 elements of the zodiac triplicities. That is a detail truly unique. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 80324988  South Africa05/07/2021 03:21 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Your wasting your time learning from the greeks, they got their stolen art from the remains of what was burned by the arabs from egypt, Quoting: Khepera 80304745 astrological knowledge belongs to us who hail of Khemet, who studied under the Dhwtj, the greek fools called our sage Hermes the Thrice great and yet where they there when he pursed his lips? I was, in fact i was the one who posed the question why should I even answer your question when you descend from those theives anyways, the lessons fromt he Temple of Karnak are not free Go study with the indians, their vedic system is but a shadow of what we know and theyll be closer than the greeks ver where, but your forgiven you think they know something since there white. Man, that has to be some of the worst grammar I have ever seen on here. Holeeeee fukking fukk!  |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 80154986 United States05/07/2021 05:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 74846321 United States05/07/2021 10:43 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 78636334  Germany05/07/2021 10:47 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 74846321 United States05/07/2021 10:54 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 46669709 United States05/07/2021 11:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 74846321 United States05/07/2021 11:08 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 71047017 United States05/07/2021 11:11 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 74846321 United States05/07/2021 11:14 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It appears as though Ptolemy did in the Tetrabiblos. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 71047017 At least the symbols are used on some tables and there is mention of astrological effects on said elements. Wonderful! WHERE in Tetrabiblos did Ptolemy every specifically state the elements pertaining to the triplicities? Which of the four books is that in, because I've searched through them all |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 71109342 United States05/07/2021 11:25 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Can't find anything for Dorotheus, except the symbol on tables and that the zodiac "can perturb the air or water," which is fairly common for the time. The oldest mention I can find to the triplicity is actually "The astronomer Geminus was the first to explain this theory reported to the Chaldean's wisdom (Isagoge I,9)." Which means it's likely pre 600 AD and probably a scrap of paper/s, not a full book tbh. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 71109342 United States05/07/2021 11:35 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In one of the Astronomica books. Book 2 or 3 iirc. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46669709 Manilius anyhow. Ok, great. I've searched through all 5 books. Where am I missing it? Which book and verse of the poem is it? I'd be thrilled to actually be able to find it. Searched not read? Book 2 or 3, I just forget, where he goes into detail about the signs. Elements mentioned in all of them. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 74846321 United States05/07/2021 11:36 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This should be the easiest quote in the world to find if it actually exists, folks. It jumped right off the page in Lilly's Christian Astrology. Just imagine for a moment if the entire elemental framework of western astrology triplicities and occultism that everyone "knows" is Ptolemaic, or Dorothean is not actually based on either or even the elemental concept of the ancients but is instead all squarely based on William Lilly in the 17th century. |
