im an atheist. debate me!

LOL Confucious based his philosophies on ancient religions and even teaches about the afterlife and Heaven. Get a clue.

Does it propose the existence of a god? That's all that's relevant. You're still struggling with the basic concept that a religion can be atheistic.

LOL What do you know about 'my God'? I am passively a Christian because that is how I was raised. I don't consider any religion to be 'correct' or 'incorrect'.

China is not a society that flourished embracing atheism. China is a little different and is basically your only lifeline, but China has a long history with religion and theism. There are ongoing debates about if they are philosophies or religions. In reality it is a blend of both - but clearly not an atheist society.

If you are trying to use China as your example of an ancient atheist society, you lose the debate.

I realize this probably isn't the BBC you are interested in, but they can enlighten you on this point.

[link to www.bbc.co.uk (secure)]

Buddhism focuses on personal spiritual development. The Buddha discussed the nature of God and questioned God's existence, and Buddhist tradition has strongly denied the existence of this kind of deity. By contrast, 'gods' as supernatural entities who can bestow benefits such as health or wealth are widely accepted in Buddhist countries.

You're a christian, but you don't consider any religion to be correct or incorrect. How does that make sense?

I know plenty about your God, assuming your god is Yahweh.

Clearly not an atheist society? Says who? You? The guy that doesn't even know what atheism is? The Chinese did not worship a god, and they excelled far beyond the ignorant bronze age goat herders that wrote your Bible.

The Roman empire dragged the middle east into the modern world, and they originally considered the Christians to be atheists, for rejecting the Roman gods. We didn't truly get out of the dark ages until we separated church and state, went through the enlightenment, and developed the scientific method.

That completely validates what I just said you thick twat.

I was raised Christian, waffled between atheist and agnostic in my teens and 20s, but after studying astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology, biochemistry, microbiology, etc. I became convinced there was design and therefore a designer. I suppose some would say I believe in 'Intelligent Design', but I choose to be a Christian because it is how I was raised. It works for me and that is all that matters.

Are you saying a religion that believes in supernatural beings that bestow gifts of good health and wealth on people is atheism? LMAO! You are REALLY stretching the limits with that one.

So you are saying that a religion that has a belief in supernatural entities that bestow gifts of health and wealth is actually atheism?



Maybe just admit you lose the China debate and move onto Bushman tribes in Africa that invented an Atl-Atl as your height of ancient atheist societies? Because I think you are losing even the atheists on this one.

First, not all buddhist sects believe in those supernatural beings. As I've said multiple times.

Second, if those supernatural beings aren't gods, like the fairies from folklore who also bestow gifts of health and wealth, then yes, that belief does not make them theists.

Only in your imagination. Just like your bronze age desert god that practices blood magick.

I never claimed all Buddhists believed in supernatural beings, but many do. You have heard of Vishnu, right? Calling Buddhism atheism and using Buddhism as an example of a successful ancient atheist society is pretty laughable. Even atheists would laugh at that.

A Bronze Age desert god practicing desert magic would still be a higher level of society than any Bronze Age atheist society.

In the Philippines there was even a belief in a Monkey God, and even they achieved far more than any ancient atheist society. That has got to be a little humiliating for atheists.

Vishnu is a Hindu god.

If atheists know what atheism means, unlike you, it wouldn't be that funny. China were not buddhists at their inception. But there have been primarily buddhist societies, that didn't believe in a god. That makes them atheist. Sorry if this confuses you.

How do you explain all the consistency in Near-Death Experiences confirming the existence of God, our real Home in the higher dimensions, etc.? Many atheists become believers after having an NDE.

Hindus consider Buddha to be the 9yh incarnation of Vishnu.

Buddhists don't. Hindus are polytheists, and I never brought claimed hinudism is atheistic. The oldest religion in China is Taoism, which undeniably lacks a god. Your move.

China has a long history of various religions. Taoism and Buddhism both have sects that belief in a God or gods and sects that don't. The Chinese belief system is pretty varied, but it China certainly not considered an ancient atheist society that had no belief in a God or gods.

That is why your argument is a failing one.

You can't have a blind universe that drops and reinstates physical laws as it fancies. Either all the matter in the (godless) universe existed to start with. And therefore didnt violate the 1st law of thermodynamics. Or, the universe was created by a superior being who is not bound by such laws. End of discussion..

No they don't, the Bhagavat Gita does. There is no such thing as Hinduism per se, Hindus are a people and there are hundreds of different Hindu religions that are practiced, Vaishnavism being one.

I would say that is incorrect. At best, it is only partially correct and comes down to semantics and different sects as Taosim 'evolved'. Comments that support your statement in green, comments that debunk it are in red.

[link to wikireligions.com (secure)]

Ancient Taoism doesn’t believe in Gods or other natural beings, rather it deals with Yin-Yan and the unity of experience with Chi. Its sole association with the Gods is mainly the result of Chinese folklore that got merged with it over several decades.

There are 1000’s Taoist Gods. Some are holy men. Others inhabit channels, rivers and mountains. Most have distinct errands and explicit powers and skills to grant desires in specific areas of capability. Taoists who need something pray to the suitable deity in special shrines called sections or halls in Taoist temples.

Most Taoist Gods are related with a spot in the exterior world and a parallel spot on the inside of man and often have a role in averting disease.

The place of Taoist deities in a large pantheon often mirrors those of secular execs in an administration. Many Chinese cities to this day have a temple devoted to the City God, the heavenly equal of a mayor.

You guys are having fun I'm sure.. but you're getting real lost in the reeds!

Last Edited by Swiss Toni on 10/12/2021 04:14 AM

LOL 'no such thing as Hinduism'. Link? Because I can post many that say differently. You need to start backing up some of the BS you are spewing because I am providing links to debunk your nonsense while you just spew more garbage.

He is debating a losing point, and it is one I have already been thru multiple times. It is a losing argument, but he KNOWS he has nothing else. He is grasping at straws and it isn't working very well.

Taoism lacks any kind of creator God. There are being that were said to have attained immortality and power through practicing the Dao. Westerners may call these gods, but they are completely unlike the concept of God as a divine architect.

So, even though a society by and large did not worship a god, you are going to credit them as a theist society, because some individuals at some point in history believed in supernatural beings, that are actually closer to fairies, and ghosts than anything a Christian would consider God?

That seems fair. By your standard, I don't think an atheist society has every existed. And as I said earlier, people don't build societies based around something they don't believe in.

Since atheism is not a belief system, it is just a single position, on a single topic, (the absence of belief in a god) there is no way to derive a system of governance from that. Not on its own.

Today however, we do have societies with a majority atheist population that are doing fine. However you might credit them as a theist society, because some guy in the woods thought he saw magical goblin once.

What is your source? Wikipedia? lmao

Hinduism is NOT a religion, HINDUS ARE A PEOPLE. There are thousands of religions and sects in India with completely different doctrines and world views. Get a fucking clue.

Ultimately, I guess my point is that even the ancient Chinese religions/philosophies had different sects. Some believed in God or gods, others didn't. It was NOT an atheist society. The gods kept creeping in. Probably because the people needed them in order for Chinese dynasties to survive. Really it only strengthens the argument for theist societies since China was never able to exorcize the belief in 'supernatural beings' that people would pray to or worship, including their ancestors.

Chinese religion was a little different than most, but they were never able to be an atheist society for long.

They didn't believe in God, capital G. The creator of the universe. Don't try and conflate their folklore characters loosley translated as gods with your brand of Theism.

If your contention is that there were individuals in Ancient China that believed in supernatural beings, I concede.

I don't get what that has to do with whether or not the universe is blind or has a creator. Who really cares what ancients believed in or didn't believe. It doesn't win or lose the debate.

We were engaged in a secondary debate. He is saying that an atheist society will never advance beyond hunter gatherers, and that every society that did was a -quote- 'theist society'

Why "it will be too late for them"?

Those who now are strongly anti-violence had killed before.

Those who now embrace God had dismissed God earlier.

It is part of our long journey over many lifetimes of growing up from spiritual immaturity to greater maturity and wisdom while on this side of the veil of forgetfulness.

The caring and loving God waits patiently with "open arms" for each of us to find God through free will. Always benevolently guiding and nurturing us unobtrusively in the background to respect our free will, the compassionate God has nothing but pure unconditional love for each of us.

God, aka Source or Prime Creator to some, is not a man dressed in a beautiful long white robe somewhere far away high up. God is a confluence of intelligent benevolent multi-dimensional energy of pure unconditional love that exists everywhere, in the smallest of the small and the biggest of the big.

We have the temple of God within us, in every one of the trillions of DNA in each of our magnificient bodies. To believe that those who displeases God will be judged and punished to suffer for eternity in a demonic place some call Hell is to believe God will judge and punish itself.

We are here to free will explore, experience, and learn. And through that long process gain greater wisdom and maturity to uncover who we truly are and ultimately bring "Heaven" to Earth.

That is how love and light expands.

Our true nature is unconditional love, compassion, and joy. Not the false nature projected by the ego mind that embraces greed, envy, hoarding, superiority, and separation. That should provide a clue as to our true relationship with God.

Last Edited by OldChap on 10/12/2021 05:17 AM