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Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 80147801
Australia
12/13/2021 12:41 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
Cool story, try reading the bible.

Ps your wrong.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81137044
South Africa
12/13/2021 12:55 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
There are 3 really bad lies that Xianity teaches:

1) Punishment in hell is eternal
2) "Rapture"
3) A single preacher at the pulpit is sufficient

At the moment, I would like to address #1.

TL;DR

The fire of the lake of fire lasts "for the eon" or, in other words, as long as is necessary. Punishment in the lake of fire exactly matches the debt that the one punished owes. Not more, not less.

So, the lake of fire will last until all debt is paid.

Too Long Version

God is Kind He is not interested in torture, he is not interested in hate. He observes all moral actions and writes a balance sheet. When you have lost the ability to act further (when you die), he tallies and judges (as he says, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses") and he allows the soul to bear the weight of punishment that the soul dished out during its life.

After the debt is paid, I am not sure what happens next. I am open to ideas from the text of the bible.

God Forgives It is apparent to me that God forgives as much as he can.

For instance, if a person steals something from another person, there are at least two witnesses: the person stolen from and the person that stole. For the sake of simplicity, this is not a poor person that is stealing to eat, rather this is a person that has no need, and is stealing for the satisfaction of greed. When is comes to judgement, God will query this thief and ask about the theft, the repayment and the state of the heart.

I believe that God forgives as follows:

1) The thief holds regret in their heart.
2) The thief manifests the regret by attempting resolution. This usually means making it up to the one-stolen-from, or when this is not possible, making it up to one in a similar situation. In the law of god this was typically 4x the value of the theft, but sometimes other amounts. So, the thief returns 4x the value to the one-stolen-from, or when this is not possible, to another in a similar situation, or when this is not possible, 4x tossed out the window on the freeway or similar. At least allowing oneself to carry the pain that one inflicted.
3) If one cannot pay (as in the case of murder), then complete submission or self-enslavement to the direction and actions of the spirit of God. As I see it, He will strengthen one to bear the weight of ones crime: overbalancing the crime with right doing.

For this, God will forgive.

Otherwise, I believe that God demands payment.

God Demands Exact Payment Payment in the next life is just like payment in this life, it is paid in personal pain or effort. Let's say that the theft rendered the one-stolen-from hungry for a day. My opinion is that the thief will pay a day or something like this in the lake of fire.

If one ends another's life early, the balance of the lifetime will be paid by the murderer in the lake of fire.

If one is naive in committing the crime, then the weight of the crime will be moderated and the punishment made equal to the crime. This is the case with the mother in many, many abortions. Mostly the murder will be paid by the corporation owners, the medical staff, the legislators, the city / state / federal employees responsible for the permitting and licenses, etc.

You Can Turn Back From Almost Any Crime The law of Moses clearly demonstrates what things God considers crimes, how He feels they should be made-up-for and how to avoid them in the first place.

Jesus goes further and talks about crimes that one can commit in the privacy of their own mind / heart.

Finally, Jesus teaches about how a person can commit themselves to the leading of the Spirit of God and live perfectly, making up for wrongs they have committed and going further by acting with the power and direction of the spirit of the Creator in all things.

There Are Some Crimes One Cannot Turn Back From An example of a crime that one must pay for is, "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit". Basically this means making-fun-of or asserting-as-inconsequential any human act that is empowered by the Spirit of the Creator. For instance, Jesus brings up the topic of "blaspheming the holy spirit" when he heals a person miraculously, and his enemies assert that he has used the power of demons to do the healing. In contrast, when Joseph (son of Jacob) interprets the king's dream, the king immediately gives honor to the God which Joseph serves. Here's a clue: if someone does something miraculous, honor your Creator.

Even Blaspheming the Spirit of God Does Not Demand Eternal Hell Fire This crime must be paid, but even this crime has human context and is not some sort of eternally damnable sin.

Taking the Mark of the Beast Requires Willful Use
If you are under the age of 13, mentally handicapped, senile, etc, I do not think that receiving the mark and using it will result in punishment. I may be wrong, as it is possible that a 12-year-old would have sufficient moral capacity to choose the mark over God. This is not, however, the common situation.
If you receive the mark and refuse so benefit by it, this will not result in punishment. If you use it to keep a job or buy groceries or even make house payments, this is usage, and as I understand it, this is condemnable. This person will "have his place" in the lake of fire, but not necessarily be there for 1000 years.
If you receive the mark and are not aware of the nature of your crime against God, this is also does not warrant full culpability.
If you receive the mark and remove it, this is honorable. Note: the injection is fully removable, as will be the bio-computer. It's tricky, but removable.


Only The Beast and the False Prophet Are Guaranteed 1000 Years In the Lake of Fire as Regards the Mark
The Beast is the governmental system that creates the mark. This includes politicians, bankers, corporate heads, etc. Basically any people that are involved in making laws, enforcing laws, creating the necessary technology, benefiting from the laws and technology.
The False Prophet is the modern church, so called. This includes pastors, priests and all clergy, religious writers that agree with the same, song writers, teachers of any kind that create the metaphor required for the mark to be instantiated. The doctrines of Rapture or Reformed amillennialism, catholic idea of J3^^s accepting a false messiah that takes power over the world, etc. Any teaching that discounts the rise of a national entity that requires an identifying mark in order to buy or sell. I am pretty sure that this includes teachers of the Christians, J3^^s and Muslims alike.

The followers of these teachings will be badly deceived by their teachers. Many will follow their teachers and earn their own place in punishment with them, however, most (as I see it) will not endure the full 1000 years.



PS
I know this is long and completely devoid of bible references. Just remember that when you hear about "eternal hell fire", look at the passage quoted and double check to see if the hell-fire lasts forever or the punishment in the hell-fire. It's always the former.

Peace to all that will hear.
 Quoting: Anymous Cowboy


No OP, hell is eternal death.

The Bible calls it the second death.

The first being your physical death and the second being your spiritual death.

The lake of fire burns away sin. Thus a good person that did not believe in God will burn away fairly quickly and painlessly, but an evil person will take a much longer time to be consumed in the lake of fire.

The reward for taking the mark is eternal death.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81137044
South Africa
12/13/2021 12:56 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
There are 3 really bad lies that Xianity teaches:

1) Punishment in hell is eternal
2) "Rapture"
3) A single preacher at the pulpit is sufficient

At the moment, I would like to address #1.

TL;DR

The fire of the lake of fire lasts "for the eon" or, in other words, as long as is necessary. Punishment in the lake of fire exactly matches the debt that the one punished owes. Not more, not less.

So, the lake of fire will last until all debt is paid.

Too Long Version

God is Kind He is not interested in torture, he is not interested in hate. He observes all moral actions and writes a balance sheet. When you have lost the ability to act further (when you die), he tallies and judges (as he says, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses") and he allows the soul to bear the weight of punishment that the soul dished out during its life.

After the debt is paid, I am not sure what happens next. I am open to ideas from the text of the bible.

God Forgives It is apparent to me that God forgives as much as he can.

For instance, if a person steals something from another person, there are at least two witnesses: the person stolen from and the person that stole. For the sake of simplicity, this is not a poor person that is stealing to eat, rather this is a person that has no need, and is stealing for the satisfaction of greed. When is comes to judgement, God will query this thief and ask about the theft, the repayment and the state of the heart.

I believe that God forgives as follows:

1) The thief holds regret in their heart.
2) The thief manifests the regret by attempting resolution. This usually means making it up to the one-stolen-from, or when this is not possible, making it up to one in a similar situation. In the law of god this was typically 4x the value of the theft, but sometimes other amounts. So, the thief returns 4x the value to the one-stolen-from, or when this is not possible, to another in a similar situation, or when this is not possible, 4x tossed out the window on the freeway or similar. At least allowing oneself to carry the pain that one inflicted.
3) If one cannot pay (as in the case of murder), then complete submission or self-enslavement to the direction and actions of the spirit of God. As I see it, He will strengthen one to bear the weight of ones crime: overbalancing the crime with right doing.

For this, God will forgive.

Otherwise, I believe that God demands payment.

God Demands Exact Payment Payment in the next life is just like payment in this life, it is paid in personal pain or effort. Let's say that the theft rendered the one-stolen-from hungry for a day. My opinion is that the thief will pay a day or something like this in the lake of fire.

If one ends another's life early, the balance of the lifetime will be paid by the murderer in the lake of fire.

If one is naive in committing the crime, then the weight of the crime will be moderated and the punishment made equal to the crime. This is the case with the mother in many, many abortions. Mostly the murder will be paid by the corporation owners, the medical staff, the legislators, the city / state / federal employees responsible for the permitting and licenses, etc.

You Can Turn Back From Almost Any Crime The law of Moses clearly demonstrates what things God considers crimes, how He feels they should be made-up-for and how to avoid them in the first place.

Jesus goes further and talks about crimes that one can commit in the privacy of their own mind / heart.

Finally, Jesus teaches about how a person can commit themselves to the leading of the Spirit of God and live perfectly, making up for wrongs they have committed and going further by acting with the power and direction of the spirit of the Creator in all things.

There Are Some Crimes One Cannot Turn Back From An example of a crime that one must pay for is, "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit". Basically this means making-fun-of or asserting-as-inconsequential any human act that is empowered by the Spirit of the Creator. For instance, Jesus brings up the topic of "blaspheming the holy spirit" when he heals a person miraculously, and his enemies assert that he has used the power of demons to do the healing. In contrast, when Joseph (son of Jacob) interprets the king's dream, the king immediately gives honor to the God which Joseph serves. Here's a clue: if someone does something miraculous, honor your Creator.

Even Blaspheming the Spirit of God Does Not Demand Eternal Hell Fire This crime must be paid, but even this crime has human context and is not some sort of eternally damnable sin.

Taking the Mark of the Beast Requires Willful Use
If you are under the age of 13, mentally handicapped, senile, etc, I do not think that receiving the mark and using it will result in punishment. I may be wrong, as it is possible that a 12-year-old would have sufficient moral capacity to choose the mark over God. This is not, however, the common situation.
If you receive the mark and refuse so benefit by it, this will not result in punishment. If you use it to keep a job or buy groceries or even make house payments, this is usage, and as I understand it, this is condemnable. This person will "have his place" in the lake of fire, but not necessarily be there for 1000 years.
If you receive the mark and are not aware of the nature of your crime against God, this is also does not warrant full culpability.
If you receive the mark and remove it, this is honorable. Note: the injection is fully removable, as will be the bio-computer. It's tricky, but removable.


Only The Beast and the False Prophet Are Guaranteed 1000 Years In the Lake of Fire as Regards the Mark
The Beast is the governmental system that creates the mark. This includes politicians, bankers, corporate heads, etc. Basically any people that are involved in making laws, enforcing laws, creating the necessary technology, benefiting from the laws and technology.
The False Prophet is the modern church, so called. This includes pastors, priests and all clergy, religious writers that agree with the same, song writers, teachers of any kind that create the metaphor required for the mark to be instantiated. The doctrines of Rapture or Reformed amillennialism, catholic idea of J3^^s accepting a false messiah that takes power over the world, etc. Any teaching that discounts the rise of a national entity that requires an identifying mark in order to buy or sell. I am pretty sure that this includes teachers of the Christians, J3^^s and Muslims alike.

The followers of these teachings will be badly deceived by their teachers. Many will follow their teachers and earn their own place in punishment with them, however, most (as I see it) will not endure the full 1000 years.



PS
I know this is long and completely devoid of bible references. Just remember that when you hear about "eternal hell fire", look at the passage quoted and double check to see if the hell-fire lasts forever or the punishment in the hell-fire. It's always the former.

Peace to all that will hear.
 Quoting: Anymous Cowboy


No OP, hell is eternal death.

The Bible calls it the second death.

The first being your physical death and the second being your spiritual death.

The lake of fire burns away sin. Thus a good person that did not believe in God will burn away fairly quickly and painlessly, but an evil person will take a much longer time to be consumed in the lake of fire.

The reward for taking the mark is eternal death.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81137044


The devil and his minions being 100% evil will burn forever.
Anymous Cowboy  (OP)

User ID: 80461795
Netherlands
12/13/2021 01:13 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
No OP, hell is eternal death.

The Bible calls it the second death.

The first being your physical death and the second being your spiritual death.

The lake of fire burns away sin. Thus a good person that did not believe in God will burn away fairly quickly and painlessly, but an evil person will take a much longer time to be consumed in the lake of fire.

The reward for taking the mark is eternal death.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81137044


There are two places where the Bible uses the phrase, "second death". The first is in the beginning of Revelation in the Lamb's messages to the churches. The second is in Revelation 20 / 21. In both cases I believe it is speaking of the punishment given to those unwilling to admit and attempt to pay for their crimes.

The first death (the thing we usually call death, like when we stop living) is a curse according to the bible. Abraham was promised a descendant that would lift this curse and offer immortality to his children. The second death, as I read it, is another curse or unavoidable punishment. As regards the first death, it seems a small thing for God to revert it and to make a person alive again, even permanently.

As I read it, the second death too is a curse or judgement to be endured as a result of crimes committed. Nevertheless, God is not a psychopath. The burden is exactly equal to the crimes committed. As long as required.
element.io/app --> @animus-eques:matrix.org
Anymous Cowboy  (OP)

User ID: 80461795
Netherlands
12/13/2021 01:19 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
The devil and his minions being 100% evil will burn forever.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81137044


This I am also unsure of.

Even the devil himself, which appears to have been one of the 5 initial created beings (?), was created in a specific context with specific constraints (as minimal as they may have been). Payment withing that context is possible. What will happen with him after that I do not know.

In any case, the lake of fire is sufficient to exact the payment required.
element.io/app --> @animus-eques:matrix.org
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 80672392
United States
12/13/2021 01:20 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
I would not want God to forgive certain people

I'm thankful for eternal lake of fire.

You're a puss op
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 80672392
United States
12/13/2021 01:21 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
Somepeople do not want God or forgiveness, ever

Hence, lake of fire must be eternal
Anymous Cowboy  (OP)

User ID: 80461795
Netherlands
12/13/2021 01:37 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
I would not want God to forgive certain people

I'm thankful for eternal lake of fire.

You're a puss op
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80672392


Indeed, I agree (maybe not about being a pussy, I suppose).

There are in fact people that need to pay for their crimes. Its just that God requires people to bear the exact punishment they owe. Not more, not less. Although the lake of fire may last for ever, each person will have their place in it as long as is necessary to pay for their crimes. I believe some will be in torment many, many lifetimes. However to have them tormented longer than they owe is itself a condemnable offense according to God's own law.

The guy in Corinth that was put out from the believers, then turned from his sin and the believers did not take him back in. This was a fault. Check it in 2nd Corinthians 5
element.io/app --> @animus-eques:matrix.org
Anymous Cowboy  (OP)

User ID: 80461795
Netherlands
12/13/2021 01:40 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
Somepeople do not want God or forgiveness, ever

Hence, lake of fire must be eternal
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80672392


Maybe this true. But the point of the fire is exact correct punishment for committed crimes. It's not complicated.
element.io/app --> @animus-eques:matrix.org
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 78051634
United States
12/13/2021 07:17 AM
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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
I would not want God to forgive certain people

I'm thankful for eternal lake of fire.

You're a puss op
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80672392


And that is the attitude of too many Christian's and others. Wanting people to suffer and pay forever. That is kind of messed up. The real One doesn't think like we do here. Thank God.
ArchimedesGirl

User ID: 80625826
Singapore
12/14/2021 12:03 AM

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Re: Punishment in Hell is Not Eternal, The Mark is "Cleanable"
Thank you, OP.

Having been pretty horribly wronged in life, I am thankful to know my oppressors will pay for their crimes, perfectly and completely, but not without end.

I am thankful to be reminded that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

God's will be done.





GLP