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Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy

 
Servant-of-the-LORD
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Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
It doesn't.

Pre-Trib Rapture Tards have you focusing on the 'event' instead of looking at the 'when' that it happens.

Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4.

1. In vers 16 Paul says 'the trump of God'...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Which 'trump'? The LAST Trump. That's NOT before the Tribulation

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

3. In verses 15 and 17 Paul says 'alive and remain'...

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4. 'Remain' from what? What event(s) would kill a LOT of people and leave those 'who remain'? The Tribulation!

The 'last trump' will be the END of the Tribulation. This is why Jesus said...Immediately* after the tribulation


Matthew 24

29 Immediately* after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the ***clans*** of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other*.



Mark 13

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD  (OP)

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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
5. All the verses below empathize being strong 'to the end'.

The phrase "to the end" occurs 8 times in 8 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

2 Corinthians 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;


1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

...

The phrase "unto the end" occurs 9 times in 9 verses in the New Testament in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 05/03/2022 01:12 AM
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Please stop spamming the Rapture threads. You are not in Australia.
Servant-of-the-LORD  (OP)

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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Luke 21:35 WHO are the recipients of the snare???

The tares are removed first.

Matthew 13

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Compare what Paul says to what Jesus says. It's the SAME evevent - the Second Coming.

Thread: After the Tribulation Documentary - NO Pre-Trib Rapture

1. No scripture states that Believers / "the Church" will miss Tribulation.

2. No scripture states that Jesus returns BEFORE "the day of the Lord".

3. No scripture states that Jesus returns MORE than once.

4. No scripture states that Jesus takes "the Church" to heaven for any period of time.

5. No scripture states that Tribulation only happens to the Hebrews.

Jesus clearly states that it will encompase the entire Earth.

.....

The pre-trib rapture is based on this passage by Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


.........

Key phrases.

0. "we which are alive and remain"

Those are Believers - including Elect - that weren't killed prior to Jesus' return. Remain from what? The Tribulation. These are the same that Jesus states 'he who overcomes' etc...

1. "THE coming of the Lord". Jesus returns once. No scripture states otherwise.

2. "trump of God". This is the "last trump" that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. For further reference, see the Seven Trumpets of Revelation. This is echoed in Matthew 24.

3. "caught up together". This is the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation.

4. "in the clouds". Jesus used the SAME phrase describing His Return.

5. "alive and remain" also matches the words "endureth to the end" (Matthew 10:22) "endure unto the end" (Mark 13:13) and "overcometh" (Revelation 2:26)

6. Jesus returns "after the Tribulation".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation

of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


7. Tribulation is not wrath. Scripture proves this.
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
If Jesus returns after the tribulation how do you reconcile with scriptures that state the return is the imminent and unknowable?
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
If Jesus returns after the tribulation how do you reconcile with scriptures that state the return is the imminent and unknowable?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79956906

'Quickly' doesn't mean 'soon' or 'immenant'.

2000 years later proves such.

Jesus said 'AFTER the Tribulation'.

Thread: After the Tribulation: Revisited - NO Pre-Trib Rapture - Bible Study Christian Theology

.....

Why did God give Jesus the Revelation 60+ years AFTER Jesus died?

There were things Jesus didn't know while He was on earth.

It's easy to argue that Jesus didn't have a full understanding about how LONG it would be BEFORE He was to return.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
I agree with you. No pre-trib.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Many pre-rapture believers will have a hard time, enduring to the end. Once they realize they were wrong.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
So let us focus on when the last Trumpet sounds?

The seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8).

The seventh trumpet calls forth seven angels who carry the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8). The bowl judgments include painful sores afflicting humanity (Revelation 16:2), the death of every living thing in the sea (Revelation 16:3), the turning of rivers to blood (Revelation 16:4–7), an intensifying of the sun’s heat (Revelation 16:8–9), great darkness and an intensification of the sores from the first bowl (Revelation 16:10–11), the advance of the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Revelation 16:12–14), and a devastating earthquake followed by giant hailstones (Revelation 16:15–21).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The seven thunders appear in Revelation 10:1–7. In his apocalyptic vision, the apostle John saw a mighty angel striding the sea and the land with a scroll in his hand. The angel gave a shout like the roar of a lion, and then the voices of the seven thunders spoke. Just as John was about to write down what they said, a voice from heaven told him to “seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down” (Revelation 10:4).

The incident of the seven thunderous voices occurs in the interlude between the sixth and seventh trumpets.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets are called the three woes (Revelation 8:13).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
After the second woe passes (Revelation 11:14), there comes a clear division in the book with the announcement from heaven, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” (Revelation 11:15). In other words, this final stage of judgment will be the end, and righteousness will be restored to the earth.

The third woe is revealed after the seventh trumpet judgment. This woe is parallel to the trumpet that sounds in Joel 2 and signals the consummation of God’s plan for the entire world. This third woe marks the finishing of God’s judgment on sin; it occupies the book of Revelation through the 19th chapter, when Christ’s Kingdom is established on earth. Incorporated within this third and final woe are the seven “bowls” of God’s wrath, described in Revelation 16:1-21. This series of judgments is the greatest horror the citizens of earth have ever seen. Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive” (Matthew 24:22).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
After the second woe passes (Revelation 11:14), there comes a clear division in the book with the announcement from heaven, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” (Revelation 11:15). In other words, this final stage of judgment will be the end, and righteousness will be restored to the earth.


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 82457747


Revelation 11:15 (ESV)
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”


Sure sounds like a gathering happening
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
So let us focus on when the last Trumpet sounds?

The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1–5), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8).




The seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8).

The seventh trumpet calls forth seven angels who carry the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15–19; 15:1–8). The bowl judgments include painful sores afflicting humanity (Revelation 16:2), the death of every living thing in the sea (Revelation 16:3), the turning of rivers to blood (Revelation 16:4–7), an intensifying of the sun’s heat (Revelation 16:8–9), great darkness and an intensification of the sores from the first bowl (Revelation 16:10–11), the advance of the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Revelation 16:12–14), and a devastating earthquake followed by giant hailstones (Revelation 16:15–21).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 82457747
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The seventh trumpet. The seventh trumpet (and the third woe) sounds, and immediately there are loud voices in heaven saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever” (Revelation 11:15).
The twenty-four elders say, “The time has come for . . . destroying those who destroy the earth” (verse 18). Obviously, God is about to wrap things up once and for all. At the sound of the seventh trumpet, the temple of God is opened in heaven, and “within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm” (verse 19).

Thus end the seven trumpet judgments. All is set for the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath. These angels stand inside the now-open temple, ready to step forward and bring the final judgments on earth (Revelation 15).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The seven bowl or vial judgments are the final judgments of the tribulation period. They will be the most severe judgments the world has ever seen. The seven bowls are described in Revelation 16:1–21, where they are specifically called “the seven bowls of God’s wrath” (verse 1). Under the Antichrist, the wickedness of man has reached its peak, and it is met with God’s wrath against sin. The seven bowl judgments are called forth by the seventh trumpet.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The seventh bowl. The seventh bowl is emptied into the atmosphere. A loud voice in heaven says, “It is done!” (Revelation 16:17). The seventh bowl results in flashes of lightning and an earthquake so severe that “no earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake” (verse 18). Jerusalem is split into three parts, and the cities of the world collapse (verse 19). Islands are flooded, and mountains disappear (verse 20). Giant hailstones, “each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people” (verse 21). Those under judgment “cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible” (verse 21).

One of the angels of the seven bowl judgments then shows John the fate of Babylon the Great (Revelation 17), as God avenges “the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth” (Revelation 18:24). The world mourns the fall of Babylon (chapter 18), but heaven rejoices (chapter 19). Jesus Christ then returns in glory to defeat the armies of the Antichrist at Armageddon (Revelation 19:11–21) and to set up His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:1–6).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
There is a series of seven seals, then a series of seven trumpets, then a series of seven bowls of wrath. We read in Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.’” In the context, this seems to come around the middle of the tribulation period.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is writing to believers concerning the transition from this life to eternal life. Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal, incorruptible bodies, prepared for the eternal kingdom of God. Verse 52 says, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Paul addresses the same subject to the Thessalonians, and specifically connects it with the Second Coming of Christ. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
It is clear that the first two passages (Corinthians and Thessalonians) fit together, but the third doesn’t appear to have any correlation in either the events described or the intended results. The argument connecting them has to depend on the meaning of the word last in 1 Corinthians 15:52. The Greek word eschatos can mean either “last in point of time” or “last in point of sequence.” This trumpet sounds before the wrath of God descends, yet Revelation 6:17 speaks of the wrath of the Lamb as having come, and the seventh trumpet doesn’t sound until Revelation 11:15. The trumpet of 1 Thessalonians is given in a moment, whereas Revelation 10:7 indicates that the seventh trumpet will be sounded for a number of days. Even though the seventh trumpet is the last one described in Revelation, Matthew 24:31 indicates there is yet another trumpet which will sound “after the tribulation of those days,” when Christ returns to the earth, which parallels with Revelation 19.

If the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15 is not the same as the seventh trumpet, then what was Paul referring to? Both 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians were written long before John wrote Revelation, so Paul’s readers would have no knowledge of the seven trumpets of Revelation.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The trumpet that summons the church is called “the trump of God,” while those in Revelation are angelic trumpets. Since it is a summoning trumpet, we can look to the Old Testament for further understanding. Numbers 10 gives instruction to Israel about the use of trumpets to call an assembly of the people and to set them in motion. The first trumpet blast (v. 4) called the leaders together, while a continual blowing was an alarm for the people. A series of trumpet blasts was the signal for each group of tribes to begin their journey, and the last blast indicated the movement of the last group in the camp.

So, if the trumpet is the call for saints to assemble and journey to heaven, what does that mean for us? Jesus said that no one knows when the Day of the Lord will begin (Matthew 24:36), and 1 Thessalonians 5:2 describes it as coming as a thief in the night, without warning. In 1 Corinthians 15:58, we are told to be “steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.” Just like the Israelites in the wilderness, we do not know when the trumpet will sound, so we are to be always ready. While we may not know the day or hour, we have been given enough information to know it can happen at any moment. We are to be ready, putting on the armor of God, because we have been appointed to receive salvation through Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:8–9).
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Seems to be two different "Last trumpet sounds"

Not sure of verse or where

But I remember reading non believers hear the sound of thunder when God speaks. Maybe when Moses went up the mountain?

And the believers here the his voice with the sound of a trumpet.

So, Could the Rapture happen at the beginning, during or at the end of the 7 Thunders.

I am with you, OP, I never believed in Pre-Trib. Just does not sound logical. And this has been taught for the past 25 years, in my opinion, confusing Christians on when the Rapture really does happen.


But I see two different description of "Last Trumpet"

and besides, at the 7th trumpet, clearly there is 7 Bowls of Judgement, not including the 7 thunders.

With the postings above, does this give a clearly description?

For me it does.

Closer and closer we get, more prophecy is revealed. So I am careful on standing strong to the latest and greatest interpretation/arguments on Revelations.

What say you?
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The Spirit moves,
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
And do not give up and abandon the thread, only because the posts above may disrupt from your original postings.

I think we are very close to understanding when that Trumpet may sound. Clearly it is not at the beginning, and clearly it is not at the end.

There is two descriptions of Jesus coming back.

One, is in the clouds, and sounds peaceful. (Rapture)

Second, involves destruction and kicking Satan and his Army.

Surely you can agree on that.

Besides, scripture and the post above, clearly show, the Seventh Trumpet is not at the last moment. There is clearly 7 Thunders and 7 Bowls of Judgement after the "last trumpet"

So do no tuck your tail and run. And start another thread a few days later.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Just throwing this out there for ponderance,,

The feast of trumpets is the next feast on the prophetic calendar

And the last trump could not be known because it relied on seeing the new moon. It was known as the hour which no man could know..

[link to m.imgur.com (secure)]

Peace,
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
The Bible tells you what happens. All religion ignores it. Revelation 20:4. It’s truly amazing how church people go around and around it trying to find another way to Jesus. It’s either totally ignored or replaced with baloney.

When the Covid death mandate comes the church people will be too busy hating the unvaccinated to even see that it’s the mark.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Just throwing this out there for ponderance,,

The feast of trumpets is the next feast on the prophetic calendar

And the last trump could not be known because it relied on seeing the new moon. It was known as the hour which no man could know..

[link to m.imgur.com (secure)]

Peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65571479


I agree. the Rapture could very well happen on the Feast of Trumpets.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Just throwing this out there for ponderance,,

The feast of trumpets is the next feast on the prophetic calendar

And the last trump could not be known because it relied on seeing the new moon. It was known as the hour which no man could know..

[link to m.imgur.com (secure)]

Peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65571479


I agree. the Rapture could very well happen on the Feast of Trumpets.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81828989


Flack shotgun shells.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
More false doctrine from dude that can't distinguish between Israel doctrine and Body of Christ doctrine.

There are 2 rapture resurrectios.
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
Just throwing this out there for ponderance,,

The feast of trumpets is the next feast on the prophetic calendar

And the last trump could not be known because it relied on seeing the new moon. It was known as the hour which no man could know..

[link to m.imgur.com (secure)]

Peace,
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65571479


I agree. the Rapture could very well happen on the Feast of Trumpets.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81828989


Mark Biltz has some great presentations on all the feasts.



Peace,
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Re: Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - Bible Sutdy
More false doctrine from dude that can't distinguish between Israel doctrine and Body of Christ doctrine.

There are 2 rapture resurrectios.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83091926


Maybe we should try to help him understand..

In patience and in love…

Kind of like Our Lord does with us.

Peace,





GLP