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Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 08:37 AM
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Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Congratulating an Atheist

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers.



An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

Logical concept of God

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

Qur'an and Modern Science

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

Theory of Probability

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

Creator Is The Author Of The Qur'an

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

Qur'an is a book of Signs not Science

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

Science Is Eliminating Models Of God But Not God

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" The Holy Qur'an Verse:41 Chapter:53

Dr. Zakir Naik
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 08:41 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Here's a fun game for all the atheists...

[link to friendlyatheist.com]

You may have missed out on the last board game, but not this time! Jawbone Productions, a maker of Biblical board games, wants you to buy their new game Inheritance (which judging by the picture below, looks remarkably like Monopoly…).

What is this game all about?

Inheritance, a board game inspired by God, and based on His promised inheritance to His saints from both the old and New Testament. Players representing disciples from the seven churches of Revelations, trade property, pay tithes and make offerings as charity for the poor. Players who qualify for the ascension play on the inner board. The winner celebrates Christ as the Lamb of God and the light of the world the results that makes everyone a winner. The mystery of King Solomon’s Seven Pillars of Wisdom is imparted during game play. No prior bible knowledge is required.

Sounds like a good drinking game.

To promote the game’s release, Jawbone is having a contest!

You can win $1,000 if you can write up rap lyrics on the subject of righteousness.

No swearing. Deadline is July 14. And apparently, you must have a proof of purchase of the Inheritance game.

Wait! There’s one more contest from the same company! This one’s for $10,000 and it’s specifically for atheists and agnostics!

Essentially, they say that 1 John in the Bible was written so that it could be read in reverse (by verse) and still communicate the same meaning as when it’s read forward. This contest has two phases.

First:

…find a similar letter or essay, on any subject, similar in length and it’s construction of reverse comprehension as found in 1st John.

Second:

Phase two requires the contestants to write an essay, the subject of which is to be the Seven Pillars of Wisdom as revealed by King Solomon and disclosed in the board game Inheritance® This essay should be readable in the reverse sentence by sentence while communicating the same message as when read normally, and similar to 1st John.

It would be pretty damn funny if an atheist won either of these contests… but it would require buying the board game… but Christian rap is so funny… but… argh! The tension of opposites confounds me yet again.
Prof-Rabbit
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04/01/2008 09:28 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" The Holy Qur'an Verse:41 Chapter:53

Dr. Zakir Naik
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 405428


I would suggest your concept is flawed, NOT because of the concept of a God, but because of mans concept of religion, in particular mans concept of the Abrahamic religion which your faith follows.

It is fair to say that the the three prevalent monotheistic religions; Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, can all make the same claims in one way or another, however the test of a religion is how it treats others of a different faith, here all three fall down completely, all three have fought wars in an attempt to annihilate each other for thousands of years.

A Muslim firmly believes that divinely revealed books were actually revealed by the Compassionate God to His prophets to guide mankind. The Quran is not the only spoken Word of God, but God also spoke to prophets before Prophet Muhammad.

“…and to Moses God spoke directly.” (Quran 4:164)

God describes true believers are those who:

“…believe in what has been sent down to you (Muhammad) and what has been sent down before you…” (Quran 2:4)

Muslims uphold and respect the following scriptures:

(i) The Quran itself, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad.

(ii) The Torah (Tawrah in Arabic) revealed to the Prophet Moses (different from the Old Testament read today).

(iii) The Gospel (Injeel in Arabic) revealed to Prophet Jesus (different from the New Testament read in churches today).

(iv) The Psalms (Zaboor in Arabic) of David.

(v) The Scrolls (Suhuf in Arabic) of Moses and Abraham.

According to the Qur'an all Muslims have to believe in God, his revelations, his angels, his messengers, and in the "Day of Judgment". Also, there are other beliefs that differ between particular sects. The Sunni concept of predestination is called divine decree,while the Shi'a version is called divine justice. Unique to the Shi'a is the doctrine of Imamah, or the political and spiritual leadership of the Imams.


Now Moses brought down the tablets upon which God had written "Thou shalt not kill"

Your concept of God is not flawed, your religion is flawed by it's adherents.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 09:40 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Hehe, nice try brother, but your thesis, although you try very hard to make it scientific is completely illogical.

I am going to orient myself around your calculations which are ... well childish.

For the first that the Earth is round.... This has been known from the ancient times. It was the religion (Islam+Christianity+Judaism) that, like many times, completely fabricated the truth.

So here is only one possible explanation... that it is spherical. There is no magic, super beings involved, it is just a matter of observations. ( You can see the curve even if you go on a mountain or if you look at the open sea).

So here is no 50/50 but only one choice. ( unless you are really retarded, then you could say that the Earth is a triangle)

The second part when you unscientifically name the possible materials for existance of life. The fact that we are made 99% of water is a knowledge that has been also known throughout the ancient times, so again there is no higher being that has to tell us this but simple observations and logical thinking.

But it is completely unlogical to name wood, metal,stone... as a possible source. So here is again only one choice.

And about the moon... LOL, this is funny, but once again the ancient civilizations knew a lot more that the people at the time that the Quran, Bible and Torah were written.

Again they knew at least 5000 years BC that the moon does not have its own source of energy. Again one just has to observe the behavior of the moon to figure that it merely reflects the light of the sun. (I don't know how you say it in English but when a moon is not full, but is partly dark it is only logical to deduct that it can not have an energy source of its own.


So you see as much as you try to scientifically explain the existance of "God" that is not possible when "he" does not exist.

But the probability now (if you presume that an intelligent human is calculating it ) is 100%.

And this knowledge has been ,before the modern religions, a common knowledge and to use it as an explanation of an imaginary being is absurd.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 09:45 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Where is the proof of god,there is an afterlife though millons of people have had experiences. [link to www.newsmonster.co.uk]
DanG
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04/01/2008 09:46 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
worship worship KD
lol bricks
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 09:47 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Try again with this link. [link to www.newsmonster.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 09:48 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Try proving that there isn't 100 billion x 100 billion other GODS, one for each "planetary system" throughout the visible universe; and why your particular GOD is the greatest of 'em all.
Prof-Rabbit
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04/01/2008 11:06 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Try proving that there isn't 100 billion x 100 billion other GODS, one for each "planetary system" throughout the visible universe; and why your particular GOD is the greatest of 'em all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 276512


God cannot be proven one way or the other, your point is also valid, the bible states "Let us make man in our image" showing clearly there is more than one God in the bible.

The difference is not so much the belief in a "God" but in the proposed religion, any religion is nothing without followers and the need to control those followers, hence you have the promises of "eternal life", 72 virgins, etc and eternal damnation/fires of hell for the non-believers.

So "heathens", "unbelievers" and any who do not follow "your" particular religion are considered targets. While you may quote "God the merciful" or the "God of love" the end result is the religion and it's followers are still violent, bloodthirsty savages.
Anonymous Coward
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Namibia
04/01/2008 01:44 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Let us first begin by admitting that we are not gods nor do we possess all knowledge. It is also necessary to remove from our minds and hearts any prejudices and prior notions of how everything came into being and how it is being sustained and perpetuated. This is the critical first step to gaining any true knowledge and establishing facts based on proof.


Ask anyone the question: "Do you believe in God?" and you are sure to receive a variety of answers. The question should be "What do you believe about God?"

Think about this:

If there is a creation, there must be a Creator.

If there is a Creator, He must be the Sustainer.

The Creator Cannot Create Himself.

If He is the sole Creator/Sustainer -- He must be ONE.

God must be one. Otherwise we would see great differences and competition between the gods if there were one -- Alone.

Do we agree that this is a creation? Or do we accept that nothing came out of nothing to form this entire universe?
This is a very clear message from Allah, in the Quran. Something does not come out of nothing. So, there must be something in existence already which created all that we know to exist. And that "something" needs to be called upon in times of need and thanksgiving.
As Allah has said in His Book: "I only created you all to worship Me Alone."

He also says that we are all being tested by Him with regard to our wealth, families, children and social status.
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2008 01:45 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
aaargh!

my EYES!

ahhh
entropy

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04/01/2008 01:48 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
"God" is just a form of social control.
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[link to www.myspace.com]

Over 1 Million plays, Most popular NIN Remix / Re imaging artist on myspace. I keep it separate:

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Anonymous Coward
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Namibia
04/01/2008 01:57 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
"God" is just a form of social control.
 Quoting: entropy

think again
Cunning_linguist

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04/01/2008 02:11 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Op you use Islam as your source for faith based facts...
KUDOS to you!

Please ensure this logic is applied when dealing with those of other faiths.. (Infidels)

Peace
De Bunker Hiding in a Bunker.
voice
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04/01/2008 02:18 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
The REAL God(Truth & Light), needs no proving; for it stands the test of time! Either something is true, or it isn't.....and no amount of discussion will change one iota of it.

All the lies of eternity can not make one truth into a lie.....never could, and never will!
IDDO the PROPHET
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04/01/2008 03:03 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
ASK AN ATHEIST IF AN HOLY WAR EXISTS?
Prof-Rabbit
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04/02/2008 03:55 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
"God" is just a form of social control.
 Quoting: entropy


Religion is social control.
Prof-Rabbit
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04/02/2008 03:59 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
As Allah has said in His Book: "I only created you all to worship Me Alone."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 218519


A God creates an entire universe, millions of galaxies, billions of suns, hundreds of billions of planets and you are so self-absorbed that you think you matter?

That's funny!
shevar
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Netherlands
04/02/2008 04:00 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
ASK AN ATHEIST IF AN HOLY WAR EXISTS?
 Quoting: IDDO the PROPHET 386599


Ofcourse they exist, they are wars based on false beliefs.

Anyways the OP is just a brainless Harun Yahya linkdumper that isn't interested in discussion.
shevar
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04/02/2008 04:03 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
[link to www2.truman.edu]

Harun Yahya and Islamic Creationism

"Darwin Day" could probably only be thought of in the United States. After all, among industrialized nations, the US is the only one with a strong creationist movement, causing endless battles over school curricula. Other countries have their anti-evolutionary moments, but the American market for creationism is the largest. Ken Ham might present his "Answers in Genesis" (www.answersingenesis.org) with an Australian accent, but he found it best to move to the US.

Of course, Americans are not the only people who have a strong streak of old-time religion in their culture, and who perceive the strain modern science puts on the old verities. In this time of religious revival around the globe, the Islamic world is perhaps the most striking in its attachment to a scripturally literalist faith. However, until recently, "creation-science" was not very visible in Muslim lands. Ironically, this was mainly because Darwinian evolution rarely appeared in education or in intellectual life.

In 1873, in the days of the Ottoman Empire, Mithat Efendi mentioned Darwin's theory in one of his writings. The religious scholars put out a fatwa declaring him an apostate. In the twentieth century, the scholars lost their traditional power in many countries, and Western ideas increased in influence. Still, Muslim thinkers took it for granted that either evolution did not occur, or that any development in life happened under direct divine guidance. The Quran, after all, declares special creation, particularly of humans. The blind naturalistic process modern science has come to accept obviously had to be wrong; the Darwinian view of nature was but another indication of Western degeneration in religion and morals. However, Muslim apologists rarely felt a need to elaborate their dismissal of Darwin.

In the US, creationism appeals to a religiously conservative population who have become upwardly mobile, joining professional classes where technical knowledge is highly valued. They are concerned both to affirm their traditional, morality-infused view of nature and at the same time, respect science and technology. Creation-science promises to accomplish this without compromise. Interestingly, a similar situation has developed in the Islamic world. Particularly in Turkey, long the most modernized among Muslim nations, the last few decades has been a time of both religious revival, and of the growing power of a religiously conservative segment of society who operates in a global capitalist economy. And so, perhaps unsurprisingly, creationism has recently erupted in Turkey, and influenced other Muslim countries. Muslim immigrant communities in the West -- also caught between old-time religion and the modern world -- have also been increasingly exposed to creationism, often imported from Turkey.

One name dominates Turkish creationism: Harun Yahya. Supposedly this is the pen name of Adnan Oktar, the leader of a religious order. But Yahya is credited with so many books, articles, videos, and web pages (www.hyahya.org) that it is hard to believe this is a one-man industry. Plus the intellectual prowess of leaders of religious orders are commonly exaggerated -- tales of incredible intellectual productivity serve as a kind of modern miracle story, bolstering the stature of charismatic teachers. So Yahya is not really a person but the flag under which the most prominent Turkish creationist activities set sail.

What is immediately striking about Yahya's productions is how modern and media-conscious they are. Before the Yahya era, expressions of creationist sentiment in Turkey were generally confined to religious intellectual circles; these writings rarely went beyond throwaway references to the obvious intelligent design in biology, and denunciations of evolution generally occupied a few passages in books concentrating on larger religious themes. Some religious orders striving to create an Islamic version of modernity attacked evolution in their "science magazines," but these had limited effect -- a well-heeled and media-savvy creationism, with great production values, continually harping on the evils of evolution, was unheard of. In contrast, Yahya's material is in full color, printed on glossy paper, copiously illustrated, popular in orientation (it uses few Arabic terms, unlike much religious literature), and available in all sorts of modern media. These publications are ubiquitous, found not just in bookstores but even in supermarket chains owned by the new breed of "Islamic corporations."

It is clear that Yahya's project commands an immense amount of resources. It is doubtful that Yahya's lavishly produced materials support themselves -- they are priced to be affordable, and even obtaining them for free takes no great effort. The August 2002 issue of Mercek, his "monthly scientific and cultural magazine" sold for about $1.80, including two VCD's (video CD-ROM's), and the only ad for non-Yahya merchandise it contained was for a series of materials to learn English (important for the upwardly mobile). Yahya's web sites make most of his books available online, in a wide variety of languages -- at no charge. Turkish creationism has gone international, and Yahya's books are as easily found and as prominently displayed in Islamic bookstores in London as in Istanbul. And the organization behind all of this, and the sources of its finances, are virtually unknown. The Turkish state, notoriously unable to bring the underground economy under control, or even collect taxes from most businesses, is also unable to enforce regulations on religious foundations.

Another striking aspect of Yahya's material is how much of it is taken, with minimal changes, from Western creationist literature such as that associated with the Institute for Creation Research (ICR). Since the Quran is not as specific as the Genesis story, Islamic creationists usually allow an old earth, so Yahya discards flood-geology and is noncommittal about the age of the earth. But the rest is there, flavored with quotations from some "Intelligent Design" figures, and all set in a matrix of traditional Islamic apologetics hammering on how obvious it is that there is a designing intelligence behind all the wonders of nature. ICR-style creationism, which we tend to think of as a sectarian, evangelical Protestant peculiarity, turns out to be pre-adapted to an Islamic environment.

Yahya also promotes other beliefs far from mainstream science and scholarship, besides creationism. These tend to be his versions of conspiratorial ideas popular in the Muslim world, such as Masonic plots and holocaust denial. But even when indulging these politically-colored fantasies, Yahya has a way of getting back to denouncing evolution. Fascism: The Bloody Ideology of Darwinism (Istanbul: Kultur, 2002) begins with a "To The Reader" section, where Yahya explains that evolution is at the root of evil today:

The reason why a special chapter is assigned to the collapse of the theory of evolution is that this theory constitutes the basis of all anti-spiritual philosophies. Since Darwinism rejects the fact of creation, and therefore the existence of God, during the last 140 years it has caused many people to abandon their faith or fall into doubt. Therefore, showing that this theory is a deception is a very important duty, which is strongly related to the religion. It is imperative that this important service be rendered to everyone. Some of our readers may find the chance to read only one of our books. Therefore, we think it appropriate to spare a chapter for a summary of this subject.

The same preface and the same anti-evolutionary chapter, "The Misconception of Evolution" (with different illustrations) appear in Islam Denounces Terrorism (3rd edition, Bristol: Amal Press, 2002). In this book, Yahya treats the reader not only to standard apologetics about Islam being a religion of peace, but in his chapter "The Real Roots of Terrorism: Darwinism and Materialism" exposes the true culprit behind events like September 11: evolution. Apparently, "the way to stop acts of terrorism is to put an end to Darwinist-materialist education, to educate young people in accord with a curricula [sic] based on true scientific findings and to instil in them the fear of God and the desire to act wisely and scrupulously." (p. 147)

What then, of opposition to Yahya, particularly in Turkey, where his name is known best? Unfortunately, this is weak. Turkey is a "developing country," a polite term to describe a place which is economically a colony administered by the IMF, politically unstable, and poor. The Turkish scientific community is weak, unable to find even a unified voice in fighting the creationists, let alone muster comparable resources. Occasionally, political secularists complain about Yahya, but secularists can do little else lately but wring hands and hope against hope that the European Community will let Turkey become a member, and maybe then everything will be all right. At the time of writing, Turkey was poised for elections at the end of 2002, and an Islamist party was expected to come out with the largest share of the vote.

Still, friends of Darwin can find a few reasons to be optimistic. After all, creationism is a reaction, and the very fact that a Harun Yahya exists is evidence that evolutionary ideas have penetrated far enough into Turkish culture that religious conservatives feel a need to take action. And Yahya becoming known throughout the Islamic world might mean that evolution is making inroads there as well.

On the other hand, there are even more reasons to be pessimistic. Yahya seems successful in grabbing public attention, with little opposition. As the degree of conservatism of Turkish governments fluctuates, the degree of creationism in high school biology texts also goes up and down, but evolution, if present, will inevitably be relegated to the last chapter the class will not have time to cover. And the notion that the complexities of life and the universe can only result from divine design runs very deep in Islamic apologetics. Muslims will, by and large, to continue to see Darwinian evolution as obviously false, and maybe even evil, for a long time to come. With Harun Yahya, we have a phenomenon which we in the Western world we should carefully watch and learn from as we celebrate "Darwin Day." For here we have a creationism which threatens to be successful in its ambitions to drive evolution out of the culture.
Prof-Rabbit
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04/03/2008 09:51 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
In 1873, in the days of the Ottoman Empire, Mithat Efendi mentioned Darwin's theory in one of his writings. The religious scholars put out a fatwa declaring him an apostate.
 Quoting: shevar 361032


Demonstrating that even in 1873 alternative ideas met with death, what hope have the Muslims got to be scientists or thinkers?
fnord
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04/03/2008 10:00 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Many ardent religionists are so insecure in their beliefs that ,if they could, they would kill people who don't believe the same way.
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2008 10:06 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
If there is a creation...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 218519


You can stop right there. There is no creation. EOP
The Truth
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04/03/2008 10:38 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Lies exist and 'God' is a lie so 'God' must exist.
repenting backslider
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04/03/2008 10:41 AM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
I like Daniel's 69 weeks of years

from the decree to rebuild the temple to Jesus entering Jerusalem to proclaim Himself Messiah exactly 483 years

prophecy fulfilled to the year

the 70th week approaches

btw since evangelizing is forbidden in Moslem countries Jesus Himself is appearing to Moslems in dreams and visions and they are being saved by the thousands
The Analog Guy

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04/03/2008 12:10 PM

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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Why Bother??
I say burn all of your bridges while you still have control of the flame.
We are like flies crawling across the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel: We cannot see what angels and gods lie underneath the threshold of our perceptions. We do not live in reality; we live in our paradigms, our habituated perceptions, our illusions; the illusions we share through culture we call reality, but the true historical reality of our condition is invisible to us.”
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2008 12:19 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
Here is the Einstein of The Bible. Harold Camping explaining. Don't mind the first 40-45 seconds into it. It begins around 45 seconds into it with him speaking. The guy is like 85 years old.

Proof of God and can i Trust the Bible "Atheist"

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2008 12:44 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
[link to www.youtube.com]


:)
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2008 12:54 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
None of the circular reasoned logic above had proved anything to this Atheist.
shyla

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04/03/2008 01:21 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
OP why must you prove god to an atheist in the first place?
It's their belief not yours.
Do you want an atheist to disprove god to you?
You cannot prove or disprove god(s).
Maybe if everyone would just stick to what they believe and let everyone else do the same, then maybe we might get somewhere.
Also if people of different beliefs focused on the common things they find in each and worked on just that, then maybe we might get somewhere.
But I know it may be too hard for some of you to admit other beliefs have some truth to them, because in doing so you admit maybe yours is not the only way to god(s).
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
-John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton

“I was never really insane except upon occasions when my heart was touched.”
-Edgar Allan Poe
Anonymous Coward
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04/03/2008 01:37 PM
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Re: Proving The Existence Of God to an Atheist
I wish their would have more posts on this topic. My 16 year old son says he is an atheist and I would some good points to discuss with him. My way of handling thus far has been to tell him...its a free country, he is free to believe what he wants, I can`t make him believe. I also told him I am glad he is thinking for himself but to keep an upon mind because he is young yet. He says he wants to believe but just doesn`t. He is a very scientific, smart minded kid. He wants hard proof of things.

How would you handle it if your child was an atheist? I like other peoples opinions so tell me what you think.





GLP