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THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 484854
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10/21/2008 07:44 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Interesting!
Quantum theory must be absurd under such a premise, as metaphysics is often illogical!?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 523513


Quantum Theory is essentially math. And math is many things, but illogical isn't one of them.
FAR

User ID: 412806
United Kingdom
10/21/2008 08:01 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
centuries ago....brainwashed rleigous peopel claimed that comets were supernatural events from god...they were wrong


centuries ago, brainwahsed religous peopel claimed that plagues were sent from god...they were wrong...

centuries ago....brainwashed rleigous people claimed that natural disasters were created by god...they were wrong..

today, brainwahed religous people think god/jessus will save them from their own ignorances and beleifs in lies..

THEY WILL ONCE AGAIN BE PROVEN WRONG....

so as you see, there bug prblem is, their inability to admit and see they are :

ALWAYS FUCKING WRONG...

because they beelive in the lie , created by mankind , knowN as :

religion !
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 530924


A hundred or so years ago, scientists believed meteors were ‘terrestrial exhalations’ encountering ‘elemental sparks’ of fire in the upper atmosphere.

[link to www.forteantimes.com]
Read - for thy sustainer is the most bountiful one, who has taught the use of the pen, taught man what he did not know!
Nay verily man becomes grossly overweening, whenever he believes himself to be self-sufficient: for behold unto thy sustainer all must return.

Quran 96:3-8

[link to www.islamicity.com]
__________
"Investors must look at this situation as a portfolio opportunity. If you have some extra land (condo developers and house flippers, listen closely), grow a vegetable garden, if you are ambitious, raise some sheep and cows, they will come in handy".
__________
How we got here: [link to www.hundredyearlie.com]
Cure: [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
Plasma aliens: [link to www.plasmametaphysics.com]
__________
Were your ancestors pedophiles? [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
[link to www.terrorism-illuminati.com]
FAR

User ID: 412806
United Kingdom
10/21/2008 08:02 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Interesting!
Quantum theory must be absurd under such a premise, as metaphysics is often illogical!?


Quantum Theory is essentially math. And math is many things, but illogical isn't one of them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 484854


When was the last time you had a look at standard quantum mechanics?

Let me know where quantum statistics becomes logic.
Read - for thy sustainer is the most bountiful one, who has taught the use of the pen, taught man what he did not know!
Nay verily man becomes grossly overweening, whenever he believes himself to be self-sufficient: for behold unto thy sustainer all must return.

Quran 96:3-8

[link to www.islamicity.com]
__________
"Investors must look at this situation as a portfolio opportunity. If you have some extra land (condo developers and house flippers, listen closely), grow a vegetable garden, if you are ambitious, raise some sheep and cows, they will come in handy".
__________
How we got here: [link to www.hundredyearlie.com]
Cure: [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
Plasma aliens: [link to www.plasmametaphysics.com]
__________
Were your ancestors pedophiles? [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
[link to www.terrorism-illuminati.com]
FAR

User ID: 412806
United Kingdom
10/21/2008 08:08 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
strawman.

Stick to the topic, and debunk the math.

There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).

Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.

(One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)
[link to www.talkorigins.org]
 Quoting: DrPostman



Chance? Spontaneously? Yet begins with a non-random event?

I'm guessing a statician one day got jelous of the mechanics folks, and thought "I know, I'll get my buddies to make a universe based upon statistics"...

That's a dead end venture for sure!
Read - for thy sustainer is the most bountiful one, who has taught the use of the pen, taught man what he did not know!
Nay verily man becomes grossly overweening, whenever he believes himself to be self-sufficient: for behold unto thy sustainer all must return.

Quran 96:3-8

[link to www.islamicity.com]
__________
"Investors must look at this situation as a portfolio opportunity. If you have some extra land (condo developers and house flippers, listen closely), grow a vegetable garden, if you are ambitious, raise some sheep and cows, they will come in handy".
__________
How we got here: [link to www.hundredyearlie.com]
Cure: [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
Plasma aliens: [link to www.plasmametaphysics.com]
__________
Were your ancestors pedophiles? [link to www.youtube.com]
__________
[link to www.terrorism-illuminati.com]
First Born
User ID: 531610
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10/21/2008 08:13 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
OP is right. Close your minds to intelligent enquiry and BELIEVE. Have FAITH. My daugter was reading out the bible recently and she read about God taking the lives of the Egyptians first born sons. All of them, to spare the Israelites and spite the Pharoah. NOW THAT'S what I'm talking about. A GOD with balls. Who needs to use one's mind when we have such pearls of wisdom to follow. Fucking Egyptians! Bastards. You DO NOT MESS WITH FUCKING ISRAELITES! WHO NEEDS MATH. READ THE BIBLE. IT ROCKS.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
10/21/2008 08:14 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
When was the last time you had a look at standard quantum mechanics?

Let me know where quantum statistics becomes logic.
 Quoting: FAR


I stand by what I wrote earlier. I never said that QM wasn't counter-intuitive. But it, like math, is very logical.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 484854
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10/21/2008 08:27 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
My daugter was reading out the bible recently and she read about God taking the lives of the Egyptians first born sons. All of them, to spare the Israelites and spite the Pharoah. NOW THAT'S what I'm talking about. A GOD with balls.
 Quoting: First Born 531610


The God you worship says quite a bit about you.
First Born
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10/21/2008 08:31 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
exactly.
Chapman_Baxter

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10/21/2008 08:32 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
OP is right. Close your minds to intelligent enquiry and BELIEVE. Have FAITH. My daugter was reading out the bible recently and she read about God taking the lives of the Egyptians first born sons. All of them, to spare the Israelites and spite the Pharoah. NOW THAT'S what I'm talking about. A GOD with balls. Who needs to use one's mind when we have such pearls of wisdom to follow. Fucking Egyptians! Bastards. You DO NOT MESS WITH FUCKING ISRAELITES! WHO NEEDS MATH. READ THE BIBLE. IT ROCKS.
 Quoting: First Born 531610

bsflag
"It's an inter-dimensional intrusion into flatland," said the vicar to the choir boy.
First Born
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10/21/2008 08:37 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Exodus:12:29-30
DO NOT FUCK WITH THE ISRAELITES>
First Born
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10/21/2008 08:39 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
AND DO NOT FUCK WITH YOUR PARENTS
Exodus 21:17 Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
First Born
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10/21/2008 08:48 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
AND DO NOT FUCK WITH THE SABBATH
Exodus 35:1-3 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
Anonymous Coward
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Lithuania
10/21/2008 09:03 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
I'll try a different approach (sorry for my English, it is far from perfect):

Lets start with the header. IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION? What? The evolution is proven. Not only by fosils, it is happening now, as you read it, and it doesn't take ages to notice it, microorganisms evolve so fast you can notice that in a sencible ammount of time. Remember various stains of flu? We didn't have so many 20 years ago, they are new. Of course, bigger animals evolve slower, as they don't multiply so fast. What is evolution? It is the changing of the lifeforme, of the genetic code of the lifeform. It is branching of into different species. It is adaptation and iprovment. Sort of like a program that constantly updates itself and spawns new versions of self. Survival of the fittest, best features combining, you know the deal.
Why is evolution so special? It is the only thing happening in the universe, that on the long term violates the thermodinamical law, that states, that in a closed system during the time, things become more chaotic. Let me give an example: you have a box bottom half of it filled with blue balls, upper half with red balls. Imagine balls are plastic same weight. Now if you shake it for a while, the colorful balls will start mixing. Now when you have mixed them enouth, try to shake the box so, that colorful balls would sort themselves back how they were before - blue balls on the bottom half, red balls on top. You can't do that. That is a law of chaos. On the other hand life, using evolution does exactly that, that is "shake" itself into more and more sophisticated order.
All you discuss here is the question "could such a complex machanizm originate accidentaly or GOD programed that by hand?". My guess - GOD designed universe, so that such a "happy accidents" could happen, and it did. It is all in the design of the universe, that alows life to start, and this "accident" is a normal thing happening once in a while in universe. GOD didn't sit there 7 days, it was all done at the moment of BIG BANG and no further intervension from the supreme being was needed, anyway, GOD wouldn't be omnipotent if the universe wouldn't work exactly the way He wanted it to. I somehow don't imagine GOD sitting there and fixing universe and adding life foms by hand. He doesn't have to. He created universe, that supports evolution lifeforms, balck holes, BIG BANGS, space inflation, relativity and so on...
DNR is the programing language of GOD. If we want to get closer to understanding the thoughts and intentions of GOD we should study DNR, not read bibles, that are written by people for people. Scientists and Religious nuts just use different words. Scientists say THE GREAT EVERYTHING and religious people say GOD and they all mean the same.

Thank you.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:04 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Exodus:12:29-30
DO NOT FUCK WITH THE ISRAELITES>
 Quoting: First Born 531610


Your use of the words 'balls' and 'fuck' seem to indicate rather strongly that you need something. A sexual release, perhaps?
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:07 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Why is evolution so special? It is the only thing happening in the universe, that on the long term violates the thermodinamical law, that states, that in a closed system during the time, things become more chaotic. Let me give an example: you have a box bottom half of it filled with blue balls, upper half with red balls. Imagine balls are plastic same weight. Now if you shake it for a while, the colorful balls will start mixing. Now when you have mixed them enouth, try to shake the box so, that colorful balls would sort themselves back how they were before - blue balls on the bottom half, red balls on top. You can't do that. That is a law of chaos. On the other hand life, using evolution does exactly that, that is "shake" itself into more and more sophisticated order.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 394033


I would suggest that you take a course on finite mathematics. In that course, I can assure you that you will learn that there is a possibility of those balls re-arranging themselves back into their original ordering -- blue ones on bottom, and red ones on top.

Furthermore, in your example, you do not provide an affinity. Evolution does. Some arrangements are more beneficial than others. Ergo, one arrangement is NOT just as likely as any other.
The Professor

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10/21/2008 09:08 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
I see no mathematical justification for the chances mentioned. Hence your entire point is moot.


Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

I would guess that they start off with something like the probability of hydrogen combining with oxygen is 50/50. Either it could form up. Or it won't. And anyone who knows anything about chemistry knows that such odds are nowhere near 50/50. It's closer to 99.9999/1 But because there are two elements, it is assumed that the probability is 50/50.

Elements, and even complex molecules, do exhibit AFFINITY. And there is simply no way this 'Professor' nut has calculated this probability while taking AFFINITY into consideration.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 484854


That is precisely why their naive calculations are way off...just about any large molecule would be unlikely to
form spontaneously, if the pieces had to just come together
spontaneously at random...for example, a perfect diamond is
one large molecule...the odds against it forming "spontaneously at random" are astronomically small, and indeed, that is why they don't form that way, they acrete,
via the chemical affinity of carbon (or, more precisely, free energy minimization)
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:08 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
When was the last time you had a look at standard quantum mechanics?

Let me know where quantum statistics becomes logic.


I stand by what I wrote earlier. I never said that QM wasn't counter-intuitive. But it, like math, is very logical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 484854


That is an assumption, to date no one has proved without doubt that proponents of 'common sense' lay sway over proponents of the 'mystical physics', many theories have been put forward but none proven without doubt.

and how does logic logically explain the illogical, paradoxes exist in logical systems, so explain mathematically please.

Paradox; an assertion or sentiment seemingly contradictory, or opposed to common sense; that which in appearance or terms is absurd (illogical), but yet may be TRUE in fact.

Just because you have letters before your name, does NOT make you the law on these subjects, you have wasted your years learning dogma, you are little more than an educated idiot prepared to defend your dogma to the death, purely because the 'letters' before your name have instilled a pride and ego to do so.

Get out of town, before i blow your mind!

I always lie!
The Professor

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10/21/2008 09:12 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
I'm an atheist but find the evolution theory pure bullshit.

So which side am I?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 531573


Being an atheist is not synonymous with being intelligent or well-educated. Unless you have some precise bone to pick with evolution, you are merely expressing ignorance of it.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:18 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Why is evolution so special? It is the only thing happening in the universe, that on the long term violates the thermodinamical law, that states, that in a closed system during the time, things become more chaotic. Let me give an example: you have a box bottom half of it filled with blue balls, upper half with red balls. Imagine balls are plastic same weight. Now if you shake it for a while, the colorful balls will start mixing. Now when you have mixed them enouth, try to shake the box so, that colorful balls would sort themselves back how they were before - blue balls on the bottom half, red balls on top. You can't do that. That is a law of chaos. On the other hand life, using evolution does exactly that, that is "shake" itself into more and more sophisticated order.



I would suggest that you take a course on finite mathematics. In that course, I can assure you that you will learn that there is a possibility of those balls re-arranging themselves back into their original ordering -- blue ones on bottom, and red ones on top.

Furthermore, in your example, you do not provide an affinity. Evolution does. Some arrangements are more beneficial than others. Ergo, one arrangement is NOT just as likely as any other.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 484854

I agree. The possibility of balls shaking back can be calculated and it is a finite non zero probability. The asymethry of possibilities of them shaking into order or not defines the arrow of time. All phisical laws are reversible in time, thermodynamics is not. Sometimes it even seems to me the life is going the other direction in time, then the inanimate world.

There is something in evolution, something mathematical about this universe, that alows the complexity to rize. Think of mandebrot set, that beautiful infinite fractal. It is not the computer that made it, it is built in to the universe. I think DNR is also just a little program to extract the true underlying complexity. Geez, human genome fits into a CD ~600MB. You can save mandebrot set drawing program onto a floppy, but try saving a bandebrot set into a picture.

I just don't know, but I belive that DNR is just using something that is in the math, that alows evolution.

Please, correct me if I am wrong at any point. Debug my philosophy.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:24 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
OP is right. Close your minds to intelligent enquiry and BELIEVE. Have FAITH. My daugter was reading out the bible recently and she read about God taking the lives of the Egyptians first born sons. All of them, to spare the Israelites and spite the Pharoah. NOW THAT'S what I'm talking about. A GOD with balls. Who needs to use one's mind when we have such pearls of wisdom to follow. Fucking Egyptians! Bastards. You DO NOT MESS WITH FUCKING ISRAELITES! WHO NEEDS MATH. READ THE BIBLE. IT ROCKS.
 Quoting: First Born 531610

Unfortunately, every religion on the planet believes their own stories and texts. Every religion believes THEY are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG. There can be only one truth, and everyone thinks they have it.

At least with science people can disagree and no one gets damned to science hell.
SquarePeg

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10/21/2008 09:47 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Still........deadhorse
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take
thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day the evil thereof.
uber
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10/21/2008 09:48 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
No matter what.... your r still saying there was a "chance" FAIL!
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 09:51 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
fdsds
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 489383
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10/21/2008 09:52 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
At least with science people can disagree and no one gets damned to science hell.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 530562


You can't possibly be serious, are you??
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 518986
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10/21/2008 09:56 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Interesting!
Quantum theory must be absurd under such a premise, as metaphysics is often illogical!?


Quantum Theory is essentially math. And math is many things, but illogical isn't one of them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 484854


Don't mistake the math for the reality!
Applied mathematics represents physical reality, but it is not that reality itself.

A mathematical point represents a physical point, but it is not that point itself.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 10:01 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
What is the mathematical possibility of God?


50/50
 Quoting: The Guy



50/50 is correct. I was going to say 1:1, which is the best way to put it.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 10:21 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
At least with science people can disagree and no one gets damned to science hell.



You can't possibly be serious, are you??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 489383

that does make a lot of sense. if a scientist fucks up - he doesn't get tenure or colleagues laugh at him at the next faculty meeting. In religion you are called an infidel and murdered or told that your soul will rot in hell for eternity.

that said - I asked earlier - what is the mathematical possibility of God.


If you are going to try to disprove the theory of evolution with math. I assume that you have respect for what it has to offer in terms of describing the universe. I'd like you to also try to disprove God with math. we can then compare the two values and make an intelligent decision.
Anonymous Coward
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10/21/2008 10:30 AM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Op, you're an idiot - viruses evolve regularly, sometimes in a very short period of time.

Anyhow what's Maths got to do with it, evolution is Biology.
nomuse (NLI)
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10/21/2008 08:23 PM
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Re: THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVOLUTION
Interesting!
Quantum theory must be absurd under such a premise, as metaphysics is often illogical!?


Quantum Theory is essentially math. And math is many things, but illogical isn't one of them.


Don't mistake the math for the reality!
Applied mathematics represents physical reality, but it is not that reality itself.

A mathematical point represents a physical point, but it is not that point itself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 518986



And, yet, the mathematics of Quantum Theory make real-world predictions which are born out by real-world observations and built into real-world machines!

Regardless of whether Quantum Theory is 100% correct or complete, it describes a known world in close enough terms to allow the design of micro-electronic devices that work (among many, many other practical applications). You may chose to believe that this is all an empty intellectual exercise of ivory tower academia, but the fruits of that thought are under your fingertips at this very moment.