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Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2008 08:19 AM
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Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Contrary to popular belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the American constitution.

Most Americans think it does, but most Americans have never bothered to actually read their constitution either, prefering to have thier so-called "leaders" tell them what they know and think, rather than actually knowing anything or thinking for themselves.

Well, here's where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" really comes from.

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" comes from article 124 of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Soviet constitution was modified many times, almost on a yearly basis, to reflect the changing whims of soviet leadership. But Article 124 was part of the original Soviet constitution issued in 1918, and the Soviet constitution of 1936 retained that article unchanged.


ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

1936 CONSTITUTION OF THE USSR
[link to www.departments.bucknell.edu]

And that concludes our History Lesson O'the Day.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/15/2008 08:25 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Just something to bear in mind the next time one of the gang members waves this phrase in front of your face.

They know the origins of this idea, and you should too.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2008 08:26 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
And when the government took over everything in the Soviet Union then there could be no more religion, since the government was everything and owned everything in the Soviet Union? That explains why religion was not possible and why there was so much persecution of the Jews and others who continued to try to practice their religions.
D. SMith
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11/15/2008 08:34 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.
The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of the British philosopher John Locke.[9] According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.[10]
The concept was implicit in the flight of Roger Williams from religious oppression in Massachusetts to found what became Rhode Island on the principle of state neutrality in matters of faith.[citation needed]

Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States, supported the separation of church and state.
The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." [11]
Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state."[12] "Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote,[13] and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."[14] In a letter to Edward Livingston Madison further expanded, "We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt." [15] This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison, and guaranteeing that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.
... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. [16]
Under the United States Constitution, the treatment of religion by the government is broken into two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. While both are discussed in the context of the separation of church and state, it is more often discussed in regard to whether certain state actions would amount to an impermissible government establishment of religion.
The phrase was also mentioned in an eloquent letter written by President John Tyler on July 10, 1843.[citation needed]
The United States Supreme Court has referenced the separation of church and state metaphor more than 25 times, first in 1878. In Reynolds, the Court denied the free exercise claims of Mormons in the Utah territory who claimed polygamy was an aspect of their religious freedom. The Court used the phrase again by Justice Hugo Black in 1947 in Everson. The term was used and defended heavily by the Court until the early 1970s. In Wallace v. Jaffree, Justice Rehnquist presented the view that the establishment clause was intended to protect local establishments of religion from federal interference-- a view which diminished the strong separation views of the Court. Justice Scalia has criticized the metaphor as a bulldozer removing religion from American public life.[17]

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2008 08:42 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
ACTUALLY, I BELIEVE IT COMES FROM FRANCE IN THE 1905 LAW. THE LAW WAS WRITTEN BY RADICAL FRENCH MASONS WHO EVENTUALLY TRANSFERED ITS CONTENTS TO THE US IN A 1947 SUPREME COURT RULING BY THE KKK MASONS.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2008 08:54 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Most people think it is written in the constitution, due to the constant propaganda of the left. The constitution maintains we have freedom OF religion, that religion we want not one forced on us by a government. I applaud you for the question, wish more cared enough to ask.
Seneca

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11/15/2008 09:47 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
[link to www.leaderu.com]
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:40 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
bump
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:42 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Religion makes only one direct and obvious appearance in the original Constitution that seems to point to a desire for some degree of religious freedom. That appearance is in Article 6, at the end of the third clause:

[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

This statement is simple and straight-forward, and applies to all offices in the entire United States, both state and federal. The clause simply means that no public position can be required to be held by any one of any religious denomination. It would be unconstitutional for there to be a requirement that the President by Lutheran, or even for the mayor of a small town to be Christian. Likewise, it would be unconstitutional for a law to forbid a Jew or Muslim from holding any office in any governmental jurisdiction in the United States.
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:43 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Not from the Jew.
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:43 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Thomas Jefferson...
Idiots the lot of ya
[link to www.nobeliefs.com]

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:44 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State" (Letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802).

Thomas Jefferson
Marquis

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10/20/2010 11:45 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
From Jefferson, you numbskulls! Geez, learn your own history.

[link to www.usconstitution.net]
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
 Quoting: Thomas Jefferson
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:47 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Contrary to popular belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the American constitution.

Most Americans think it does, but most Americans have never bothered to actually read their constitution either, prefering to have thier so-called "leaders" tell them what they know and think, rather than actually knowing anything or thinking for themselves.

Well, here's where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" really comes from.

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" comes from article 124 of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Soviet constitution was modified many times, almost on a yearly basis, to reflect the changing whims of soviet leadership. But Article 124 was part of the original Soviet constitution issued in 1918, and the Soviet constitution of 1936 retained that article unchanged.


ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

1936 CONSTITUTION OF THE USSR
[link to www.departments.bucknell.edu]

And that concludes our History Lesson O'the Day.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551593


History from a wanna be theocrat.
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:48 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Do know how ridiculous you sound?

Why are you parroting this stupidity?

Do you want news corp to own you?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1078715
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10/20/2010 11:48 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Contrary to popular belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the American constitution.

Most Americans think it does, but most Americans have never bothered to actually read their constitution either, prefering to have thier so-called "leaders" tell them what they know and think, rather than actually knowing anything or thinking for themselves.

Well, here's where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" really comes from.

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" comes from article 124 of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Soviet constitution was modified many times, almost on a yearly basis, to reflect the changing whims of soviet leadership. But Article 124 was part of the original Soviet constitution issued in 1918, and the Soviet constitution of 1936 retained that article unchanged.


ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

1936 CONSTITUTION OF THE USSR
[link to www.departments.bucknell.edu]

And that concludes our History Lesson O'the Day.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551593

1802 came before 1936 am I right?
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:49 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Do know how ridiculous you sound?

Why are you parroting this stupidity?

Do you want news corp to own you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1128603

You calling our founders "stupid"... boy dems fightin words.
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:50 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
It's amazing how many of the teabagging cheesedicks love Jefferson so much yet know nothing of his thoughts or views.
Nikki_LaVey

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10/20/2010 11:52 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
Contrary to popular belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not appear in the American constitution.

Most Americans think it does, but most Americans have never bothered to actually read their constitution either, prefering to have thier so-called "leaders" tell them what they know and think, rather than actually knowing anything or thinking for themselves.

Well, here's where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" really comes from.

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" comes from article 124 of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Soviet constitution was modified many times, almost on a yearly basis, to reflect the changing whims of soviet leadership. But Article 124 was part of the original Soviet constitution issued in 1918, and the Soviet constitution of 1936 retained that article unchanged.


ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

1936 CONSTITUTION OF THE USSR
[link to www.departments.bucknell.edu]

And that concludes our History Lesson O'the Day.

1802 came before 1936 am I right?
 Quoting: Brutalsun


Last time I checked it was!
How Can You Be Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere at all
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:54 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
It's amazing how many of the teabagging cheesedicks love Jefferson so much yet know nothing of his thoughts or views.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1026997


How did the 'teabagging cheesedicks' manage to get into this?

And why do some people think childish name calling counts as political debate?
fire Uncle Scam

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10/20/2010 11:55 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
It's amazing how many of the teabagging cheesedicks love Jefferson so much yet know nothing of his thoughts or views.


How did the 'teabagging cheesedicks' manage to get into this?

And why do some people think childish name calling counts as political debate?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1136086

It's the only thing liberals know.
America, Idiocracy in the making. The nanny state wins and Darwin loses; survival of the dumbest and laziest is all but guaranteed.

[link to trianglefreeforum.com]
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:56 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
It's amazing how many of the teabagging cheesedicks love Jefferson so much yet know nothing of his thoughts or views.


How did the 'teabagging cheesedicks' manage to get into this?

And why do some people think childish name calling counts as political debate?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1136086


Well since with teabaggers there is not political debate you might as well bring insults.
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 11:57 AM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
He nails it.

[link to rope.zmle.fimc.net]
Anonymous Coward
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10/20/2010 12:32 PM
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Re: Where does the phrase "Separation of Church and State" actually come from?
This is such a tired area of conversation and has already been firmly established.

Its very clear to everyone including the joker she is running against, why does she not get it?