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Evolution Fact

 
truth teller
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04/22/2009 10:42 AM
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Evolution Fact
well just for a laugh here goes

Evolution is a FACT. It is apparent everywhere we look.
Evolutionary THEORY is what we use to explain HOW evolution works. It is not postulating the existance of evolution as this is FACT; it just tries to explain how it occours.

GRAVITY is fact.
There have been different theories for how gravity works. Newton had his THEORY. Turns out he wasnt right. Einstein has his THEORY (general relativity), but we know his THEORY cannot be the undelying truth to how gravity works since it cannot combine quantum mechamins with gravity. There must be more to it. Maybe soon quantum loop gravity or srting theory could fully explain gravity.
All the time with different theories no one DENIES the existance of gravity as it is FACT.

The same is true of EVOLUTION.

I expect this thread to be flamed with stupid replies but please just try and read what I wrote and try and understand it. Evolution really is undeniable. You may attack the theory but that is merly attacking how it works , not that it exists.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:44 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Think carefully.

Explain the development, by random chance and accident, of the human eye.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:45 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I wont flame you. I will ask you a few simple questions.

If evolution is fact please explain how the first being sustained itself? How did it find food? When did it begin?

I find it hard to believe anything in its infant stae could just know how to survive and feed itself. Of course now there are some animals that do just that.

What came first? How did it sustain itself is the question.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:46 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
well just for a laugh here goes

Evolution is a FACT. It is apparent everywhere we look.
Evolutionary THEORY is what we use to explain HOW evolution works. It is not postulating the existance of evolution as this is FACT; it just tries to explain how it occours.

GRAVITY is fact.
There have been different theories for how gravity works. Newton had his THEORY. Turns out he wasnt right. Einstein has his THEORY (general relativity), but we know his THEORY cannot be the undelying truth to how gravity works since it cannot combine quantum mechamins with gravity. There must be more to it. Maybe soon quantum loop gravity or srting theory could fully explain gravity.
All the time with different theories no one DENIES the existance of gravity as it is FACT.

The same is true of EVOLUTION.

I expect this thread to be flamed with stupid replies but please just try and read what I wrote and try and understand it. Evolution really is undeniable. You may attack the theory but that is merly attacking how it works , not that it exists.
 Quoting: truth teller 659668



I cannot see how evolution is apparent, everywhere you look.

Without citing examples then your post is merely speculation, which doesn't make it fact.

Im open to hear your ideas, but your statement has no substance.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 10:46 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Think carefully.

Explain the development, by random chance and accident, of the human eye.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 660096


using terms like that show you dont understand how it works but anyway.


Through natural selection, different types of eyes have emerged in evolutionary history -- and the human eye isn't even the best one, from some standpoints. Because blood vessels run across the surface of the retina instead of beneath it, it's easy for the vessels to proliferate or leak and impair vision. So, the evolution theorists say, the anti-evolution argument that life was created by an "intelligent designer" doesn't hold water: If God or some other omnipotent force was responsible for the human eye, it was something of a botched design.

Biologists use the range of less complex light sensitive structures that exist in living species today to hypothesize the various evolutionary stages eyes may have gone through.

Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved: The simple light-sensitive spot on the skin of some ancestral creature gave it some tiny survival advantage, perhaps allowing it to evade a predator. Random changes then created a depression in the light-sensitive patch, a deepening pit that made "vision" a little sharper. At the same time, the pit's opening gradually narrowed, so light entered through a small aperture, like a pinhole camera.

Every change had to confer a survival advantage, no matter how slight. Eventually, the light-sensitive spot evolved into a retina, the layer of cells and pigment at the back of the human eye. Over time a lens formed at the front of the eye. It could have arisen as a double-layered transparent tissue containing increasing amounts of liquid that gave it the convex curvature of the human eye.

In fact, eyes corresponding to every stage in this sequence have been found in existing living species. The existence of this range of less complex light-sensitive structures supports scientists' hypotheses about how complex eyes like ours could evolve. The first animals with anything resembling an eye lived about 550 million years ago. And, according to one scientist's calculations, only 364,000 years would have been needed for a camera-like eye to evolve from a light-sensitive patch.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:46 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
The problem is everyone likes to beileve creationism, they would rather beileve god said poof your here, and all the pre-historic evidence is god testing us..

Oh my favorite tho HAS to be, to god a day is a century and a century a day... That's how they love to explain it.

Well ya know what? To mike, 1 beer is a thousand beers, and a thousand beers is one. Now all I need is a billion fools to beileve me!!

"I have as much power as the pope, I just have less people who beileve it"
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 10:47 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I wont flame you. I will ask you a few simple questions.

If evolution is fact please explain how the first being sustained itself? How did it find food? When did it begin?

I find it hard to believe anything in its infant stae could just know how to survive and feed itself. Of course now there are some animals that do just that.

What came first? How did it sustain itself is the question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 618413

evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.

however here is a good video that tries to answer your question. Note it is more speculation than fact but it is a good watch
[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:50 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
The tuatara lizard has a third eye on the top of its head called the parietal eye. It has its own lens, cornea, retina with rod-like structures and degenerated nerve connection to the brain, suggesting it evolved from a real eye. The parietal eye is only visible in hatchlings, which have a translucent patch at the top centre of the skull. After four to six months it becomes covered with opaque scales and pigment.[11] Its purpose is unknown, but it may be useful in absorbing ultraviolet rays to manufacture vitamin D,[8] as well as to determine light/dark cycles, and help with thermoregulation.[11] Of all extant tetrapods, the parietal eye is most pronounced in the tuatara. The parietal eye is part of the pineal complex, another part of which is the pineal gland, which in tuatara secretes melatonin at night.[11] It has been shown that some salamanders use their pineal body to perceive polarised light, and thus determine the position of the sun, even under cloud cover, aiding navigation.[34] [link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 10:52 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I cannot see how evolution is apparent, everywhere you look.

Without citing examples then your post is merely speculation, which doesn't make it fact.

Im open to hear your ideas, but your statement has no substance.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17061

the "fact of evolution" refers to the changes in populations of biological organisms over time, which are known to have occurred through scientific observations and experimentations.

Second, the "theory of evolution" refers to the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the current scientific explanation of how these changes occur. Misuse and misunderstanding of how these terms are applied to evolution have been used to construct arguments disputing the validity of evolution.

Can you really deny that populations have over time changed in appearance , no you cannot, therefore fact
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 10:55 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I wont flame you. I will ask you a few simple questions.

If evolution is fact please explain how the first being sustained itself? How did it find food? When did it begin?

I find it hard to believe anything in its infant stae could just know how to survive and feed itself. Of course now there are some animals that do just that.

What came first? How did it sustain itself is the question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 618413


The theory of evolution doesn't claim it knows where the first lifeforms came from... The theory of evolution only claims that existing lifeforms adjust/change over the course of generations.

Abiogenesis does have several tentative theories although they aren't nearly as well supported as the theory of evolution.

Anonymous Coward
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Lithuania
04/22/2009 10:58 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I wont flame you. I will ask you a few simple questions.

If evolution is fact please explain how the first being sustained itself? How did it find food? When did it begin?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 618413

Abogenesis (about how life started) is a slippy topic. The most true answer from scientists is "WE DON"T KNOW", but that desn't matter as life exists and evolution can be observed without knowing how life started.

I find it hard to believe anything in its infant stae could just know how to survive and feed itself. Of course now there are some animals that do just that.

What came first? How did it sustain itself is the question.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 618413


Again, this happened so long time ago there are very few clues how this could have happened.

Evolution is here you can easily subject and fast reaplicating speceis to special environments and wach them change, that is evolution.

5* for the therad
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:00 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
well just for a laugh here goes

God is a FACT. It is apparent everywhere we look.
The Bible THEORY is what we use to explain HOW god works. It is not postulating the existance of god as this is FACT; it just tries to explain how it occours.

GRAVITY is fact.
There have been different theories for how gravity works. Newton had his THEORY. Turns out he wasnt right. Einstein has his THEORY (general relativity), but we know his THEORY cannot be the undelying truth to how gravity works since it cannot combine quantum mechamins with gravity. There must be more to it. Maybe soon quantum loop gravity or srting theory could fully explain gravity.
All the time with different theories no one DENIES the existance of gravity as it is FACT.

The same is true of God.

I expect this thread to be flamed with stupid replies but please just try and read what I wrote and try and understand it. Evolution really is undeniable. You may attack the theory but that is merly attacking how it works , not that it exists.
 Quoting: truth teller 659668



There I fixed it for you
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:05 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
I cannot see how evolution is apparent, everywhere you look.

Without citing examples then your post is merely speculation, which doesn't make it fact.

Im open to hear your ideas, but your statement has no substance.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17061

You take fast reaplicating species, like bacteria, or even better friut flies, and subject them to non standard environment, say don't allow them to fly. Over multiple generations they will lose their wings, grow bigger legs and in general learn to live without flying.

It works simple, all have mutations, most mutations are harmful and kill individuals, but some are useful, because of the higher chance of successful individual maiting, these sucsessful changes are passed on so adding new features to colony.

You can't do that to mamals though, you simply won't live long enouth to see the results of the experiment.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:07 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There I fixed it for you
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016

Idiot. I see nowhere that this reality is a consiquence of GOD. If other idiots wouldn't have told you you wouldn't come up with the idea of GOD in the first place.

Science and evolution, on the other hand are real and observable. Take your time and $ and make experiments and see things with your own eyes.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 11:07 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
well just for a laugh here goes

God is a FACT. It is apparent everywhere we look.
The Bible THEORY is what we use to explain HOW god works. It is not postulating the existance of god as this is FACT; it just tries to explain how it occours.

GRAVITY is fact.
There have been different theories for how gravity works. Newton had his THEORY. Turns out he wasnt right. Einstein has his THEORY (general relativity), but we know his THEORY cannot be the undelying truth to how gravity works since it cannot combine quantum mechamins with gravity. There must be more to it. Maybe soon quantum loop gravity or srting theory could fully explain gravity.
All the time with different theories no one DENIES the existance of gravity as it is FACT.

The same is true of God.

I expect this thread to be flamed with stupid replies but please just try and read what I wrote and try and understand it. Evolution really is undeniable. You may attack the theory but that is merly attacking how it works , not that it exists.



There I fixed it for you
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016

lol, thankyou.

I happen to believe in a god very much. Please dont let anyone tell you evolution is a lie because they are trying to deny god. It simply doesnt work that way. I think its amazing that the universe is able to spontaneusly create and evolve life using natural process's. If you wish you can give credit of the universes design to god. Its a much more impressive feat than a god just magicing man and animals into existance because he couldnt get it to work otherwise.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:08 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Come on ion, come on in, creationists, you will be overloaded with scientific facts and left for ded.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:09 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There I fixed it for you

Idiot. I see nowhere that this reality is a consiquence of GOD. If other idiots wouldn't have told you you wouldn't come up with the idea of GOD in the first place.

Science and evolution, on the other hand are real and observable. Take your time and $ and make experiments and see things with your own eyes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 394033


There is no differnce in your logic. I just point out the fallacy in your thinking. Im am not the Idiot here.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 11:26 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There I fixed it for you

Idiot. I see nowhere that this reality is a consiquence of GOD. If other idiots wouldn't have told you you wouldn't come up with the idea of GOD in the first place.

Science and evolution, on the other hand are real and observable. Take your time and $ and make experiments and see things with your own eyes.


There is no differnce in your logic. I just point out the fallacy in your thinking. Im am not the Idiot here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016

I can do a simple experiment to prove the existance of gravity. If I pick something up and drop it every time it falls towards earth. I dont know how or why it exists but I can conclude that gravity does exist. More and more complex experiments can disciver the how and why.

What experiment can you do to prove the existance of god? Please let us know since you would be very very famous.

Im not denying god but god is a belief not a fact in the scientic process sense. The great advantage of the scientific method is that it is unprejudiced: one does not have to believe a given researcher, one can redo the experiment and determine whether his/her results are true or false. The conclusions will hold irrespective of the state of mind, or the religious persuasion, or the state of consciousness of the investigator and/or the subject of the investigation. Faith, defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, does not determine whether a scientific theory is adopted or discarded.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 11:43 AM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There is no differnce in your logic. I just point out the fallacy in your thinking. Im am not the Idiot here.

I can do a simple experiment to prove the existance of gravity. If I pick something up and drop it every time it falls towards earth. I dont know how or why it exists but I can conclude that gravity does exist. More and more complex experiments can disciver the how and why.

What experiment can you do to prove the existance of god? Please let us know since you would be very very famous.

Im not denying god but god is a belief not a fact in the scientic process sense. The great advantage of the scientific method is that it is unprejudiced: one does not have to believe a given researcher, one can redo the experiment and determine whether his/her results are true or false. The conclusions will hold irrespective of the state of mind, or the religious persuasion, or the state of consciousness of the investigator and/or the subject of the investigation. Faith, defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, does not determine whether a scientific theory is adopted or discarded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659668

No-one denies the existance of gravity. But you cannot use gravity as a supporting argument for evolution.

You say evolution is apparant everywhere we look. (with bios toward evolutionary theory)
I say God is apparant everywhere we look.(with bias to

Evolution is a theory just like the bible is a theory. Both can be used to explain the existance of life on earth which is a Fact.
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 01:05 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Think carefully.

Explain the development, by random chance and accident, of the human eye.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 660096


Humans are not the only creature with light sensitive organs.Plants are also light sensitive. Light sensitivity has been a part of plant and animal life for at the very least 600,000,000 years, which is plenty of time for an evolutionary process to have constructed such a sophisticated device. It is not the eye mechanism itself that is so amazing, but behind it, the brain mechanism that interprets its signals into vision that is far more amazing. Have you ever stopped to consider just how much of the brain is used to process binocular vision?
BOWMAN

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04/22/2009 01:22 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
The evolution of physical attributes leads nowhere.

It is when consciousness is put as the leading edge of evolution that everything falls into place and makes sense.

Life developed in this pattern, each level being a constant reduction in time by a factor of 20.


mayantempl


------

Last Edited by BOWMAN on 04/22/2009 01:23 PM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 01:22 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There is no differnce in your logic. I just point out the fallacy in your thinking. Im am not the Idiot here.

I can do a simple experiment to prove the existance of gravity. If I pick something up and drop it every time it falls towards earth. I dont know how or why it exists but I can conclude that gravity does exist. More and more complex experiments can disciver the how and why.

What experiment can you do to prove the existance of god? Please let us know since you would be very very famous.

Im not denying god but god is a belief not a fact in the scientic process sense. The great advantage of the scientific method is that it is unprejudiced: one does not have to believe a given researcher, one can redo the experiment and determine whether his/her results are true or false. The conclusions will hold irrespective of the state of mind, or the religious persuasion, or the state of consciousness of the investigator and/or the subject of the investigation. Faith, defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, does not determine whether a scientific theory is adopted or discarded.

No-one denies the existance of gravity. But you cannot use gravity as a supporting argument for evolution.

You say evolution is apparant everywhere we look. (with bios toward evolutionary theory)
I say God is apparant everywhere we look.(with bias to

Evolution is a theory just like the bible is a theory. Both can be used to explain the existance of life on earth which is a Fact.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016

It is undeniable that we inherit how we look from are parents and that we look just a little bit different from them. It is undeniable that natural selction pressures have a say in what can survive to reproduce.
When u look at the fossil record you see a steady progression of life forms.
when u look at genetics u see the connection between different life forms and how they are all ultimatley cousins and related



I urge u to watch this video. It is all the PROOF you need and you may be shocked at just how detailed our knowledge is.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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United Kingdom
04/22/2009 01:24 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
There is no differnce in your logic. I just point out the fallacy in your thinking. Im am not the Idiot here.

I can do a simple experiment to prove the existance of gravity. If I pick something up and drop it every time it falls towards earth. I dont know how or why it exists but I can conclude that gravity does exist. More and more complex experiments can disciver the how and why.

What experiment can you do to prove the existance of god? Please let us know since you would be very very famous.

Im not denying god but god is a belief not a fact in the scientic process sense. The great advantage of the scientific method is that it is unprejudiced: one does not have to believe a given researcher, one can redo the experiment and determine whether his/her results are true or false. The conclusions will hold irrespective of the state of mind, or the religious persuasion, or the state of consciousness of the investigator and/or the subject of the investigation. Faith, defined as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, does not determine whether a scientific theory is adopted or discarded.

No-one denies the existance of gravity. But you cannot use gravity as a supporting argument for evolution.

You say evolution is apparant everywhere we look. (with bios toward evolutionary theory)
I say God is apparant everywhere we look.(with bias to

Evolution is a theory just like the bible is a theory. Both can be used to explain the existance of life on earth which is a Fact.

It is undeniable that we inherit how we look from are parents and that we look just a little bit different from them. It is undeniable that natural selction pressures have a say in what can survive to reproduce.
When u look at the fossil record you see a steady progression of life forms.
when u look at genetics u see the connection between different life forms and how they are all ultimatley cousins and related



I urge u to watch this video. It is all the PROOF you need and you may be shocked at just how detailed our knowledge is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659668

woops forgot the link
[link to www.youtube.com]
BOWMAN

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04/22/2009 01:26 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
And call it coincidence that every single cell on the face of this planet is made of EXACTLY 20 different types of amino acids.


------
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 01:40 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
And call it coincidence that every single cell on the face of this planet is made of EXACTLY 20 different types of amino acids.


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN

its a coincidence, and not a very good one either.
Besides there may only be 20 in HUMANS, but elsewhere in the natural world you will find a vast amount more. Therefore you dont find just 20 amino acids in EVERY single cell on the planet so you are in fact just plain wrong
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 01:49 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
well just for a laugh here goes

Evolution is a FACT. It is apparent everywhere we look.
Evolutionary THEORY is what we use to explain HOW evolution works. It is not postulating the existance of evolution as this is FACT; it just tries to explain how it occours.

GRAVITY is fact.
There have been different theories for how gravity works. Newton had his THEORY. Turns out he wasnt right. Einstein has his THEORY (general relativity), but we know his THEORY cannot be the undelying truth to how gravity works since it cannot combine quantum mechamins with gravity. There must be more to it. Maybe soon quantum loop gravity or srting theory could fully explain gravity.
All the time with different theories no one DENIES the existance of gravity as it is FACT.

The same is true of EVOLUTION.

I expect this thread to be flamed with stupid replies but please just try and read what I wrote and try and understand it. Evolution really is undeniable. You may attack the theory but that is merly attacking how it works , not that it exists.
 Quoting: truth teller 659668



The Intelligent designer's creation uses the machinations of evolution.
BOWMAN

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04/22/2009 01:49 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
And call it coincidence that every single cell on the face of this planet is made of EXACTLY 20 different types of amino acids.


------

its a coincidence, and not a very good one either.
Besides there may only be 20 in HUMANS, but elsewhere in the natural world you will find a vast amount more. Therefore you dont find just 20 amino acids in EVERY single cell on the planet so you are in fact just plain wrong
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659668



That's true.

It is only in humans.

And this pattern is orientated to humans.



mayantempl


Unless you have issues with carbon dating procedures, it's a pattern.


------
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/22/2009 02:04 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
And this pattern is orientated to humans.





Unless you have issues with carbon dating procedures, it's a pattern.


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN

I have issue witht the fact that the data has clearly been adjusted/made up/ fudged to fit the pattern

1.26billion years first higher cells. wat? thats very specific and what do they mean by higher cells?
humans 160,000 years ago. No one has made that claim so specifically
The date for agriculture is constantley being redifined

besides they have just picked random things that occoured at roughly that right time and put them on scale. They are not really related to each other in anyway

AND what has carbon dating got to do with it. It only works to about 60000 years ago. I dont need it to know we have the internet and it is useless for knowing anything else on that scale.

Anyway another guy how fudges information in this way is Ray Kurzweil in his book the singularity. I suggest u read it I think u would like it (although he is wrong, like u)
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 02:13 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
The Intelligent designer's creation uses the machinations of evolution.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 593154


Yes I agree, as a Deist, this is how I see it. Evolution is a natural result of an intelligent architecture.
BOWMAN

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04/22/2009 02:32 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Prokaryotic cells were the highest expression of life 1.26 billion years ago.

That's a fact by the fossil record.

Fact: mammals are made of cells.

Placental mammals were the highest expression of life 63 million years ago.

63 million is 20 times less than 1.26 billion.

Fact: mammals grouped together make families.

Bi-pedal primates were the highest expression of life 3.2 million years ago.

3.2 million is 20 times less than 63 million.

Fact: families grouped together make tribes.

Homo-sapiens were the highest expression of life 160,000 years ago.

8,000 years is 20 times less than 160,000 years

Fact: tribes grouped together make up cultures.

Agri-Culture was the highest expression of life 8,000 years ago.

400 is 20 times less than 8,000.

Fact: cultures grouped together form nations.

The modern nation was the highest expression of life 400 years ago.

20 is 20 times less than 400.

Fact: nations grouped together form a global society.

The Internet was the highest expression of life in 1992, 20 years prior to 2012.

1 year is 20 times less than 20.

Fact: planetary systems grouped together form a galaxy.

That is a pattern.

What each of these events have to "do" with each other is the the fractal groupings that make each level.

Remember, consciousness flows.

Your minds does not think from thought A to thought B.


------







And this pattern is orientated to humans.





Unless you have issues with carbon dating procedures, it's a pattern.


------

I have issue witht the fact that the data has clearly been adjusted/made up/ fudged to fit the pattern

1.26billion years first higher cells. wat? thats very specific and what do they mean by higher cells?
humans 160,000 years ago. No one has made that claim so specifically
The date for agriculture is constantley being redifined

besides they have just picked random things that occoured at roughly that right time and put them on scale. They are not really related to each other in anyway

AND what has carbon dating got to do with it. It only works to about 60000 years ago. I dont need it to know we have the internet and it is useless for knowing anything else on that scale.

Anyway another guy how fudges information in this way is Ray Kurzweil in his book the singularity. I suggest u read it I think u would like it (although he is wrong, like u)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 659668
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2009 02:39 PM
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Re: Evolution Fact
Think carefully.

Explain the development, by random chance and accident, of the human eye.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 660096


[link to www.talkorigins.org]





GLP