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Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"

 
under-dreaming
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05/17/2009 12:13 PM
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Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
When I say Internal, I mean pre-Bible given moral code.

I don't think that Christians generally have a good moral code at birth. That is why most Christians have so much faith in the bible - it taught them how to be a good person, relatively speaking. Upon looking at the profile of Christians, I have developed a few levels of identification for who that person is without the bible.

First, we must remove people born into a serious Christian family. They were influenced since birth, and do not serve as a reliable source for this experiment. However, it should be noted that in most cases of this type of person, they are usually incredibly sheltered to other worldviews. Which leads to the idea that these people haven't been given much room for imagination and higher levels of spiritual growth.

Then there are the born-again types. It would seem that these are almost always one of three types. Type 1: recovering substance abusers/dealers and incarcerated individuals. Type 2: those that have no identification or self-esteem - who find themselves in the open arms of a Christian. Type 3: those that have a guilty conscience - they have done bad things to people in the past, and are looking for a way to live with themselves now that their conscience has caught up with them. Clearly, these types did not have good moral judgment without Christianity.


C.S. Lewis is often referred to by Christians as a man who had insight that is useful for Christians. Lewis spoke a great deal about the moral code that most people are born with. Those who weren't born with it are just like people born color-blind.


Christians don't have a good moral code because god put it in them. Christians just found out how to not be a dick by reading the bible. Does that prove the existence of a Christian god? I don't think so. Besides, most Christians still act like dicks anyway (unless your in their club, right?).
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:14 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
So you are morally superior and can judge?
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:15 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
So you are morally superior and can judge?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 541166


Nope.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:16 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Could have fooled me.
I'll read it again.
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:17 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Could have fooled me.
I'll read it again.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 541166


We all have the capacity to grow. Superior is not the right word.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
wingedlion/whiterider​
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05/17/2009 12:18 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
So you are morally superior and can judge?


Nope.
 Quoting: under-dreaming



Then why judge people then? You are evidently not qualified to do so. Even Jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone, and you seem to know very little about the divine life of Grace, so why don't you shut up?
InfoFront

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05/17/2009 12:18 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
I basically agree with you. One always hears Christians talking about how atheists and agnostics have no morals. They assume that since they have no ingrained moral compass, that they needed their morals dictated to them through a book, that no one else has an internal moral code either. This is not the case.
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:19 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
I think it's neat how one can kill thousands of people and accept the lord at the last minute before death and be saved.

If one doesn't believe in the lord and saves thousands of lives but doesn't accept the lord at all. Instant HELL.


Yeah, that makes sense.
panthera~onca

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05/17/2009 12:19 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Ex "Christian", or just preoccupied with the subject of Christian people? scratching

Last Edited by panthera~onca on 05/17/2009 12:20 PM
No matter how high the throne one sits on, one sits on one's bottom.

*
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:19 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
I basically agree with you. One always hears Christians talking about how atheists and agnostics have no morals. They assume that since they have no ingrained moral compass, that they needed their morals dictated to them through a book, that no one else has an internal moral code either. This is not the case.
 Quoting: InfoFront


Precisely my point of view. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:20 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
But you must be superior, at least in your own mind, by the claims you make.
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:20 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Ex "Christian", or just preoccupied with the subject of Christian people? scratching
 Quoting: panthera~onca


Preoccupied with people in general.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:21 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Then why judge people then? You are evidently not qualified to do so. Even Jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone, and you seem to know very little about the divine life of Grace, so why don't you shut up?


You shouldn't look at this like a stone. This is just harmless debate.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:21 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
But you must be superior, at least in your own mind, by the claims you make.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 541166


If you say so. Get over it.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
WomanInBlack

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05/17/2009 12:23 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Everyone is capable of morality, whether pagan, christian, jewish, whatever.

Morality is not exclusive, nor is a moral code. I would not say that Christians have no moral code. I have known some of the best. At the same time, have also known some of the worst.

Generalizations are not good. If you are doing something in the vein of a sociological project, you are already skewed.
We forfeit three-fourths of ourselves in order to be like other people.

Les Ruines De La Modernité-Pendaison De L'Humanité
panthera~onca

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05/17/2009 12:24 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Ex "Christian", or just preoccupied with the subject of Christian people? scratching


Preoccupied with people in general.
 Quoting: under-dreaming



Oh, I see.

Why?

Are you studying Psychology/Psychiatry or just have a curious mind?
No matter how high the throne one sits on, one sits on one's bottom.

*
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:24 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Generalizations are not good. If you are doing something in the vein of a sociological project, you are already skewed.
 Quoting: WomanInBlack


For the sake of GLP reactivity, this is the way I needed to approach the subject (this time).
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:24 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Yup and that applies not only for christards, but for all religitards - look how obviously evil actually many of them are.
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:24 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
I basically agree with you. One always hears Christians talking about how atheists and agnostics have no morals. They assume that since they have no ingrained moral compass, that they needed their morals dictated to them through a book, that no one else has an internal moral code either. This is not the case.


Precisely my point of view. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
 Quoting: under-dreaming

If there is no God then there is no moral right or wrong.
Athiests, are by their own dogma illogical.
To claim there is no God is trying to prove a negative. This implies that the one making the claim has all knowledge and power.
I can claim that "There are no polkadotted red and green rocks on Mars" but without "godlike" powers, I just play the fool.
wingedlion/whiterider​
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05/17/2009 12:24 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
The unregenerate man has only one source of a moral code and that is what is inherited from the knowledge of good and evil. Even heathen in foreign lands have a perverted sense of right and wrong.

Christians do have a superior source as the righteous commandments of a Holy God; yet without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit they are just as unable to develop a moral code as you put it, they would revert to the natural "good and evil" knowledge that comes from nature.

"without holiness, no one shall see the Lord."
mu1ti

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05/17/2009 12:25 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Think of it this way.. they choose ahead of their birth to experience life in this fashion because many lifetimes spent this way do not learn many of the lessons needed to go on ,however it is ongoing creative challenge that the higher self sets for the individual consciousness , I sincerely do think many are here to experience this change in consciousness in their way.

It may seem unnecessary to you if you are deciding to rid your belief systems of fear. By hating it you are not seeing the fear.. one of the first rules of dealing with fear inside and using your emotions as the tools they are meant to be is recognising that you only hate what you fear.
"It was curious to think that the sky was the same for everybody, in Eurasia or Eastasia as well as here. And the people under the sky were also very much the same--everywhere, all over the world, hundreds or thousands of millions of people just like this, people ignorant of one another's existence, held apart by walls of hatred and lies, and yet almost exactly the same--people who had never learned to think but were storing up in their hearts and bellies and muscles the power that would one day overturn the world."
- George Orwell, 1984

[link to thesecrettempleofit.blogspot.com]
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:25 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Why?

Are you studying Psychology/Psychiatry or just have a curious mind?
 Quoting: panthera~onca



I am alive. And I care about intention and direction.
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:26 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
You guys hate Christians, but can't stop talking about them. Why don't just Ignore them? Live and let live, you'll soon die and see who is Jesus anyway....
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:26 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
The problem is, they assume all non-believers do not, and they tend to judge us and go on their self-righteous biblical tirades of how we are all going to hell no matter how "good" of a life we have lived. That gets annoying.
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:27 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
You guys hate Christians, but can't stop talking about them. Why don't just Ignore them? Live and let live, you'll soon die and see who is Jesus anyway....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 639609



I died before, and I saw no jeezus there. There was only Love. Stop trying to spread fear.
9teen.47

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05/17/2009 12:28 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
Don't be silly, Jesus Christ is God and He created the entire Universe and everything in it. He is fully entitled by right to your worship because He created you. Make sure that you do not finish up like stupid ol' Charlie Boy here...

Hi There!...

[link to www.chick.com]

Last Edited by 9teen.47 on 05/17/2009 12:29 PM
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:29 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
The problem is, they assume all non-believers do not, and they tend to judge us and go on their self-righteous biblical tirades of how we are all going to hell no matter how "good" of a life we have lived. That gets annoying.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 679866

If you were in a house fire, would you be annoyed at people yelling at you to get out?
under-dreaming  (OP)

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05/17/2009 12:29 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
The unregenerate man has only one source of a moral code and that is what is inherited from the knowledge of good and evil. Even heathen in foreign lands have a perverted sense of right and wrong.

Christians do have a superior source as the righteous commandments of a Holy God; yet without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit they are just as unable to develop a moral code as you put it, they would revert to the natural "good and evil" knowledge that comes from nature.

"without holiness, no one shall see the Lord."
 Quoting: wingedlion/whiterider 681203


This is all based on faith in the word. Faith that the word is in fact exclusively from one source: God. However, I fell that it is painfully obvious that it has been borrowed from all over the place. Therefore, the evolving/adapting moral code of nature/primitive man has been captured in the bible, not created by the bible. The bible has done a good job with continuity. But it has also done a good job with holding back the evolution of the "moral code".
"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~ Ayn Rand 1905-1982
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:29 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
When I say Internal, I mean pre-Bible given moral code.

I don't think that Christians generally have a good moral code at birth. That is why most Christians have so much faith in the bible - it taught them how to be a good person, relatively speaking. Upon looking at the profile of Christians, I have developed a few levels of identification for who that person is without the bible.

First, we must remove people born into a serious Christian family. They were influenced since birth, and do not serve as a reliable source for this experiment. However, it should be noted that in most cases of this type of person, they are usually incredibly sheltered to other worldviews. Which leads to the idea that these people haven't been given much room for imagination and higher levels of spiritual growth.

Then there are the born-again types. It would seem that these are almost always one of three types. Type 1: recovering substance abusers/dealers and incarcerated individuals. Type 2: those that have no identification or self-esteem - who find themselves in the open arms of a Christian. Type 3: those that have a guilty conscience - they have done bad things to people in the past, and are looking for a way to live with themselves now that their conscience has caught up with them. Clearly, these types did not have good moral judgment without Christianity.


C.S. Lewis is often referred to by Christians as a man who had insight that is useful for Christians. Lewis spoke a great deal about the moral code that most people are born with. Those who weren't born with it are just like people born color-blind.


Christians don't have a good moral code because god put it in them. Christians just found out how to not be a dick by reading the bible. Does that prove the existence of a Christian god? I don't think so. Besides, most Christians still act like dicks anyway (unless your in their club, right?).
 Quoting: under-dreaming


Your argument is based on your assumption that you yourself know who the real Christians are. I guess that you believe that if someone says that they are a Christian, then they are. You will then evaluate their words/actions.....and give your opinion of Christianity. The fact is however that only God knows who His children are.....and He will one day separate the wheat from the chaff. See also Christ's warnings to the Churches in Revelation Chp 1-3.
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:29 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
The problem is, they assume all non-believers do not, and they tend to judge us and go on their self-righteous biblical tirades of how we are all going to hell no matter how "good" of a life we have lived. That gets annoying.

If you were in a house fire, would you be annoyed at people yelling at you to get out?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 541166

bsflag
Anonymous Coward
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05/17/2009 12:30 PM
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Re: Christians Have No Internal "Moral Code"
All hearts are deceitfully wicked.

You're right - given to my own will, I would be a horrible person, and if you answer to no one but yourself, and your own fleshly desires - you'll be a horrible person too!

If you think not - you're deceived.





GLP