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THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?

 
justme
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THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Here is an overview of the doctrine of the Rapture that we believe at this point in time:

1. Most Christians will be left behind at the Rapture. Jesus is only coming back for his Bride. His bride is part of the Church, but not all the church.

2. There is a "crier church" ministry before the Rapture. The "crier church" ministers are the forerunners to the Bride of Christ or the "Man-child" bride company ministry. The crier church brings Christ back to her mother's house (Visible Christian Church). Song of Solomon 3:4; 8:2

3. The Visible Christian Church will be tormented from "within" the body because of the doctrine of GOD that the crier church preaches. And that doctrine is about who Jesus Christ really is. (Revelation 12:2)

4. A third of the saints who have the heart of the bride will fall prey to "THE" great deception (Revelation 12:4)

5. The "Man-child" bride company is birthed from the Visible Christian church (Revelation 12:5).

6. The "dead in Christ" rise first. These are saints in Heaven who have the heart of the Bride. They are sent back to earth to ministry with the living bride upon the earth. We believe this ministry will mirror Christ's resurrected ministry. That ministry lasted 40 days.

7. The "dead in Christ" and the living bride will be "caught up" to GOD and His throne to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

8. The Woman (Visible Christian Church) sees that her greatest fear has come to pass. And that is being left behind. (Revelation 12:6; Isaiah 66:5)

9. The third of the saints who were deceived by "THE" great deception, are the first to stand up and give their lives for the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are called, "the remnant" of the woman's seed in Revelation chapter 12:17.

9. The Woman goes into hiding from the Beast System for 3 1/2 years. During that age, as each saint that overcomes, is anointed to minister and judge the Beast System, they are martryed. Their souls are then found under the alter of GOD in Heaven.

10. The "Two Witness" are actually two groups of saints. They are also called., the "two olives trees" standing before the lord of the earth (Satan). These two groups of saints are Gentiles and Jews. There will be so many Jews according to the flesh, that come to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that they are called one of the two witnesses.

11. The Two Witnesses. Revelation 11:11 "After three and a half days a life-giving breath came from God and entered them, and they stood up; and all who saw them were terrified." The phrase "three and a half days" is not literal. It is actually 3 1/2 years. During the 3 1/2 year ministry of the two witnesses, the world will be partying each time that one of the saints in this company is martyred. The last saint is martyred between the opening of the 5th and 6th seals. There is a great earthquake and Jesus sends their souls attached to their spirits back to be joined with their bodies that were martyred. They stand up whole and healed. And all who see them are terrified! GOD is doing this as a sign to the world that death is swallowed up in victory in the name of Jesus. The the two witnesses, who are also called, "The Laodicean" church age, hear a voice from Heaven saying:

Rev 11:12
12 "Come up here." And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
(NAS)
Who is saying "Come up here?" It is the bride of Christ. And part of this group of saints, who are also known as the "crier church" made a shout to the the 10 virgins in Matthew 25:6;

'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet {him.'}
(NAS)

The 5 wise virgins are also known as the "church age" of Philadelphia. And the 5 foolish virgins are those saints who will be left behind and will be known as the "church age of Laodicea.'


It is to the "church age" of Philadelphia that Jesus says in Revelation 3:8;
Rev 3:8
8 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
(NAS)
The phrase "and have not denied My name" is referring to who Jesus Christ really is. That He is not an unknowable mystery. And His name tells us who He really is. He is the Father, YAHWEH the Savior, anointing and being one with the man Christ Jesus.

Rev 3:10
10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that {hour} which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.
(NAS)

In the phrase, "I also will keep you from the hour of testing," the word "from" in the Greek is "ek." It literally means "out of." In other words, Jesus will keep the "church age" Philadelphia (also known as the Bride of Christ), "out of" "THE" temptation which shall come upon the whole world. And the only way that Jesus can keep this "church age" "out of" "THE" temptation which is to fall upon the whole world, is to take them out of the earth. In other words, the church age of Philadelphia will be Raptured or caught up to GOD and His throne. With that Revelation 12:4; I Thessalonians 4:13-18.


Now – some teach that the word “Rapture” is not a Biblical term. After all, the literal word “Rapture” is not found in our English Translations. And ---- one of the principles of hermeneutics states that:

“We are not to use non-biblical terms to define doctrine.”
Now, to use the word "Rapture" as a biblical term is okay and here is why:

The English word “Rapture” comes from the Latin word “RAPTUS.” And the word “RAPTUS” is found in the Latin bible everywhere the Greek word for “HARPAZO”
(HAR –PAD –ZO) is used. It is spelled “H – A – R – P – A – Z – O.” In Strong’s Dictionary of Greek words, it is #726. It means:
“To seize ( in various applications) : to catch (away, up), to pluck, pull, take (by force).”

The connotation is: As if you have a hundred dollar bill, and accidentally throw it in a fire, ------then you better “Snatch it up quickly,” --- otherwise it will be burned up!!

So, ---if you look at the Latin bible, --- you will find the word “Raptus” (or some variant of it), --- everywhere that the Greek word “Harpazo” is used in the Scriptures!!

Now, ---- here are some Scriptures where the Greek word “Harpazo” is used, --- but it is translated in our English Bibles in different forms.

1. Matthew chapter 11:12 ---- the phrase “take by force” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek.
2. Matthew chapter 13:1---- the phrase “snatches away” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek.
3. John chapter 3:16 ---- again, the phrase “take by force” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek.
4. John chapter 10:12, 28 and 29 ---- the phrases “snatch or snatches” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek.
5. Acts chapter 8:39 ---- the phrase “snatched” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek. Now, ----- in that context --- it is talking about being “snatched away bodily.” Philip after ministering to the Ethiopian eunuch, -----was picked up in his flesh by the Spirit of GOD -------and physically set down in another city. GOD put that there for us!!! To give us a Vision and a hope to build our faith. Because in the ministry of the “Crier church” ----- and the ministry of the man-child bride company ------ we will be physically moved from one place to another by the Spirit of GOD to minister. And what is that ministry????? It is to call the bride!!!! The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. With that, Revelation 22:17; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 12:1-5; Ezekiel chapter 1 , The Song of Songs and many other places throughout the Scriptures talk about the ministry of the “Crier church” and the ministry of the “man-child bride” company.

6. Acts chapter 23:10 ---- the phrase “by force” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek.
7. II Corinthians chapter 12:2, 4 the phrase “caught up” is translated “Harpazo in the Greek. And in that context, ----- it is talking about being “caught up in the spirit.”
8. I Thessalonians chapter 4: verses 17,18 says:

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(NAS)

This context is talking about the rapture of the bride of Christ. The phrase in verse 17 “shall be caught up” (meaning “future tense”) -----that phrase ---is a little bit different variant of the Greek word “Harpazo.” It is showing a “future action” which shall take place.

We see that the “dead in Christ” must rise first, and minister with the living bride. With that I Thessalonians chapter 4: verses 13 – 17.
In this context, there is a “time lapse” between the bride saints who are in heaven right now ( like brother Chris) -------and we who are “alive and remain” ----being caught up together to meet Jesus in the air. That “time lapse” we have speculated to be about 40 days.

We believe at this point in time that the “man-child bride company will fulfill the “type” of Christ’s resurrected ministry. Christ ministered for 40 days after his resurrection. And many of the saints that had died with the heart of the bride, --- ministered with Him during this 40 day time period.


Matt 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up {His} spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split,
52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
(NAS)
What were they doing in the “City of Rain???” They were preaching the “GOOD NEWS!!” JESUS CHRIST IS RAISED FROM THE GRAVE!!! WE HAVE BEEN REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB FROM HELL!!!!


That’s why when Peter preached on the “Day of Pentecost” in ACTS chapter 2 ---- 3,000 souls gave their hearts to Jesus Christ. Peter preached without a microphone, ----without a radio or television set--------and 3,000 souls were saved from his sermon. WHY???
The people’s hearts had already been prepared by the “Resurrected ministry of Jesus and the “dead in Christ!!!”

And Acts chapter 1: verse 3 tells us that Christ ministered for 40 days after His resurrection.
Anonymous Coward
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05/18/2009 10:30 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
there is no rapture- do more searching, almost everything you believe has been given to you, you probably have never even questioned who wrote the bible and how it was compiled, also there is no hell either! the priest class , who compiled all religions, would not be able hold their power unless they invented the boogeyman to bring you to their control, there is a creator, its just not the one in the bible!
Reality is BS

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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
The rapture is pure fantasy. You aren't going to screw up the world with all this religous nonsense and then escape the consequenses. Sorry but it's not that easy.
Anonymous Coward
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05/18/2009 10:40 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
The part of the church not built on a strong foundation will crumbble, the part built on the law of god/truth will stand firm.

Test your truths, put them to the test, if you find them reliable, then know you have found a brick in your foundation to stand on.
Curtis Loew

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05/18/2009 10:43 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture = Make Believe.
My Dog Ate My Signature.
Anonymous Coward
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05/18/2009 10:49 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Truths are things that are solid, proven to work, it is also our foundation or our roots, the roots of the tree of life run deep. The deepter the roots the stronger the tree, The roots get feed by the spirit "water".
Anonymous Coward
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture = Make Believe.
 Quoting: Curtis Loew


And Jesus said....In the last days scoffer's will
come saying.........................
Sandpiper
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture...the people that gave their lives to CHRIST, believers in HIM, and look for HIS appearing. The ones that are left behind, are the unbelievers.
dttsrrreyyyyyweyw
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
christians aint going anywhere. its the israelites that are going to be raptured and taken to israel to rule with Jesus when He returns. Jesus warned about christianity and how it will deceive people.
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture...the people that gave their lives to CHRIST, believers in HIM, and look for HIS appearing. The ones that are left behind, are the unbelievers.
 Quoting: Sandpiper 682291

The real Christians, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will be taken up just before God pours out His wrath upon the world, just after the Sixth Seal and before the Seventh Seal. (Rev. 6:17-------7:17) You have the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week whereby Satan gets kicked out of heaven full of wrath. This goes on for a few years. Then the rapture. Then God pours out His wrath for about 1.5 years. Then Christ returns with His armies.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
"He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!"
Luke 24:25
wingedlion/whiterider​
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Pre-tribbers make prophecy so complex that no normal individual can understand it. They make it that way so that they can gain a following to support their endless books about the end times. End times is big business, and preachers who specialize in this kind of false teaching make a great deal of money.

It does not make sense to take a bride before she is ready.

It does not make sense to leave a portion of God's people behind, and take a "pampered few" who never had their faith tested anyway.

False doctrines are rampant in the Church today as well as Satanic infiltration. It would be best if any Christian would drop out of Church and find a group of believers to fellowship with, but the churches are full of satanists.
justme  (OP)

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The rapture is pure fantasy. You aren't going to screw up the world with all this religous nonsense and then escape the consequenses. Sorry but it's not that easy.
 Quoting: Reality is BS



Havin a cow?
justme  (OP)

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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
I DON'T THINK SO....TWO CHURCHES DESCRIBED IN THE SCRIPTURES....THE WOMAN, and THE BRIDE.



Rapture...the people that gave their lives to CHRIST, believers in HIM, and look for HIS appearing. The ones that are left behind, are the unbelievers.

The real Christians, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will be taken up just before God pours out His wrath upon the world, just after the Sixth Seal and before the Seventh Seal. (Rev. 6:17-------7:17) You have the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week whereby Satan gets kicked out of heaven full of wrath. This goes on for a few years. Then the rapture. Then God pours out His wrath for about 1.5 years. Then Christ returns with His armies.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 667003


Last Edited by rodm on 05/19/2009 02:07 AM
DanG
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
gawd I wish these nutbars would LEAVE ALREADY !!
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
[link to www.cuttingthroughthematrix.net]
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Here is an overview of the doctrine of the Rapture that we believe at this point in time:

 Quoting: justme



Hello.

If you don't mind: who are you referring to with the use of the word "we"?

Thanks.
Got Questions?
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius,' which translated into English means 'rapture.' It is found here in the English bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' is transliterated into 'caught up.' That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo,' which means 'to rapture up into the air,' or to 'snatch away.'

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius,' which was later translated into English as 'rapture.' These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up.'

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminancy. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's 7 yr peace treaty with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminancy.

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2- 3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or Bema in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not)

The Bride of Christ (the Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off if you will. (Revelation 4:1- 5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now and will leave with it in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world soon after, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation or resurrection coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House. (John 14:3).
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a Mystery, a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminancy there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.org]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to rapturealert.com]
[link to rapturealert.com]
justme  (OP)

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05/19/2009 10:35 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Thank you, good word...I'll print it later....WE= group of believers in Seattle


The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius,' which translated into English means 'rapture.' It is found here in the English bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' is transliterated into 'caught up.' That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo,' which means 'to rapture up into the air,' or to 'snatch away.'

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius,' which was later translated into English as 'rapture.' These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up.'

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminancy. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's 7 yr peace treaty with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminancy.

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2- 3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or Bema in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not)

The Bride of Christ (the Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off if you will. (Revelation 4:1- 5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now and will leave with it in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world soon after, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation or resurrection coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House. (John 14:3).
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a Mystery, a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminancy there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.org]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to rapturealert.com]
[link to rapturealert.com]
 Quoting: Got Questions? 679009
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 682568
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05/19/2009 10:39 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture...the people that gave their lives to CHRIST, believers in HIM, and look for HIS appearing. The ones that are left behind, are the unbelievers.
 Quoting: Sandpiper 682291


hf
redVerbal

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05/19/2009 10:41 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Show me the word RAPTURE in the bible first!
:blinkylizard::

PEACE, LOVE & LIZARDS~
GraftedPromise U_ _ofA
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05/19/2009 11:21 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
.
... Hey JustMe ...
.
... think about the relationship between a bride and groom ...
.
... whores don't have that ...
.
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2009 11:25 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Your beliefs and religion will have nothing to do with it. It'll be a matter of your spirituality.
Galaxy

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05/19/2009 11:32 AM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
stfu

You stupid christians, and crawl back under your stones.



pope rocket
Luctor et Emergo.
justme  (OP)

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05/19/2009 04:00 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Uhhh: Did you try reading the above post?




Show me the word RAPTURE in the bible first!
 Quoting: redVerbal
justme  (OP)

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05/19/2009 04:02 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Yah I agree, and neither does the woman or concubines, both described in the bible...Take for example the woman in the book of Solomon..


.
... Hey JustMe ...
.
... think about the relationship between a bride and groom ...
.
... whores don't have that ...
.
 Quoting: GraftedPromise U_ _ofA 674149
justme  (OP)

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05/19/2009 10:12 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
anyone ideas?
Lotus Feet

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05/19/2009 10:28 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
gawd I wish these nutbars would LEAVE ALREADY !!
 Quoting: DanG 585146

hf

LOL Dan I nearly feel off my chair laughing....

OP the church meant community e.g spiritual community not the church Rome built.

The dead will rise first are those that are dead in the belief of the Messiah.



Lotus
i love satan
Lotus Feet

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05/19/2009 10:29 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Your beliefs and religion will have nothing to do with it. It'll be a matter of your spirituality.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 516671


Indeed.


Lotus
i love satan
Anonymous Coward
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05/19/2009 10:30 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
the collection basket goes....
Lotus Feet

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05/19/2009 10:32 PM
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Re: THE RAPTURE: WHICH PART OF THE CHURCH GOES, WHICH PART STAYS?
Rapture...the people that gave their lives to CHRIST, believers in HIM, and look for HIS appearing. The ones that are left behind, are the unbelievers.


hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 682568



Well as the USA is currently Babylon and the land of Esau; the members of the Church in the USA are in serious trouble. They wished for doom and now they have brought it upon themselves.

Lotus
i love satan





GLP