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Disinformation Agents Tactics in Online Forums: ideas, input, experiences and how to defeat them. Please share to help us all find the truth.

 
Anonymous Coward
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Disinformation Agents Tactics in Online Forums: ideas, input, experiences and how to defeat them. Please share to help us all find the truth.
How do the disinformation agents do it? And what can we do to combat this?

Ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, tag team attacks combinations of all tactics, and swift responses...

My reasons and thoughts about why I posted this rather extensive thread are as follows:

I have personally witnessed and have been subjected to well organized team attacks by what can only be called misinformation/disinformation agents on some social networking sites. I am sure many would concur that it also happens here on GLP as well.

My goal is to learn more about how these individuals and teams operate, and gather information from our collective experiences, so that honest truth seekers can spot this when it occurs, and better defend ourselves when attacked by such disinfo. agents.

Here specifically is what I have witnessed in a social networking site, and it mimics what is happening on many such forums: Please keep in mind that this is referring to a main stream networking site, with people not nearly as aware about 9/11 truth and the conspiracies we all know of here.

----
Modus Operandi

As soon as any 911 post that goes against the official story is posted the following occurs: (or bilderberg, or NWO, or FED...)

1. The same suspected disinfo. agents are always extremely quick to react, and sometimes within less than a minute or two, they come back with large amounts of information, ranging from virtually any topic with linked sources. As many here know, even if you are well informed, it takes time to post a logical arguments and source them well. They are able to post extremely quickly and consistently.

This would indicate advanced preparation on their behalf. It almost seems as if they are using some sort of database with questions and answers that cover many diverse topics. And, this database, if there is in fact one, even seems to give options to the agent for different kinds of possible attack arguments, depending on the original posters personality, intelligence, and the situation. Sometimes a ad hominem attack, sometimes, a straw man attack, some times a mixture of both, with opinion and/or disgust thrown in...

2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, and seem to always be around to counter almost any and all "non-mainstream approved" posts. Whenever a post, or a counter argument is made, they are right there with a new attack. It seems as if they are specifically watching the threads and waiting. This would again reinforce the database theory, since they are so quick and knowledgeable about such a wide variety of areas. They also seem to be very good at many different kinds of argument tactics and logic. Some of these people would give many good lawyers a run for their money. Or, at least keep a well trained debater busy fending off the attacks.

3. The disinfo. agents seem to work together, in small groups. I have noticed three people in particular from a social network. Two in the US and one in Europe. One of them always seems to be on-line (time zones facilitate this) to attack any such posts. If they do happen to all be on-line at the same time, they will tag team, ganging up on the posters--hitting hard and hitting quickly to dissuade others from participating in the debate so they are not made fun of as well. If they are not all online, due to maybe the one in the states still sleeping due to time zones, as soon as the return, they are quick to back up their team.

4. They also seem to be playing a version of good cop/bad cop like game.

The Good cop: Uses misdirection, Strawman attacks mixing fact with opinion, and a bit of low key ad hominem attacks.

The Bad cop: uses Strong Ad hominem attacks and attempts to discredit posters through harrassment and misdirection and libel.

5. The third member of the group will sometimes be very knowledgeable about a topic when it serves their purposes, and at other times, the same person will be extremely dumb. (this also part of the act it seems). In this case it is a woman, who can get away with some things a man may not be able to.

6. It also seems that they each have a number of sock puppets at the ready, which they use to sway public support in their favor after or before their attacks. These usually offer disgust at how the poster can post such "trash" and "lies" etc.


5. If the disinfo. agents cannot successfully win by ad hominem attacks, or if you can see through there straw man attacks and call them on this successfully, they often resort to massive amounts of posts ignoring factual and sourced posts through a few different methods. The always focus on the weakest link in an argument, ignoring the strong factual evidence. In the end, when they can't win argumentatively or through insults and sock puppet "public disgust" against the poster, they do serve to wear you down until you give up. Like I mentioned, they seem to have an unlimited about of time to relentlessly attack until you give up. As is they don't have a normal job. (Of course, their real job is most likely as a disinformation agent, which is why they have their full time to use).

I have read some articles about this, and (some have already been posted here on GLP) and have found some similar points and trends. I have not yet seen anyone mention a possible database being used for this though.
One interesting post by H. Michael Sweeney and worth a read, located here:
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth:
The Rules of Disinformation & The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist


[link to www.whale.to]

Additionally, I found a book which may also be of interest called: How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic, by Madsen Pirie(easily located in a torrent if you look)
[link to www.amazon.com]


If you can constructively contribute to this post, I along with many fellow truthers would be most grateful.

I would be particularly interested in:
--additional disinfo tactics you may have noticed being used.
--Ways we can combat this. How we can beat them at this game.
--Ideas on if there could be such a database, and if anyone has any info. on one...

Thanks! And may truth prevail!
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

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06/02/2009 03:02 PM

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This was my post, but I got automatically logged out since it took so long to post.
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Duncan Kunz

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06/02/2009 03:06 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:08 PM
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I'm an information agent so I use all those tactics also.

Frankly, you must spend your life researching everything you can so you can be selective as to what is the truth.

Or you can pay for your information. This method is usually called "buy my book".
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:08 PM
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bump bump bump
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:12 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?
 Quoting: Duncan Kunz


It's about you and you showed up within minutes to prove it. You're fired for being too obvious.
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

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06/02/2009 03:15 PM

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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?
 Quoting: Duncan Kunz



no, not in the slightest. Can we admit that disinformation agents exist? Or have I already lost you there?
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Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:20 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?



no, not in the slightest. Can we admit that disinformation agents exist? Or have I already lost you there?
 Quoting: joejoe

I've never seen evidence that they exist, just people disagreeing, sometimes with good reasons, sometimes not.

Do you have evidence other than what's in your original post?
Sleepless

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06/02/2009 03:23 PM
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bump this kind of thing needs to be pinned here forever .
I had to remove my Signature As it seems to have confused some people....It Don't take much for that round here ..
9teen.47™

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06/02/2009 03:24 PM
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nikstory joejoe, I don't worry about it. When Duncan Kunz and his tag team come onto one of my Chemtrail or other threads I use them.

People love a good fight and I give it to em.




Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:24 PM
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Re: Disinformation Agents Tactics in Online Forums: ideas, input, experiences and how to defeat them. Please share to help us all find the truth.
Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?
 Quoting: Duncan Kunz

bump If it smells like shit, and looks like shit.... then it's probably.....
noKnothing~

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06/02/2009 03:26 PM
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Idol1
(.__________________________________.)
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06/02/2009 03:26 PM
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It does seem obvious. It is more than just a difference of opinion. More like truth-squelching propaganda, by design.
joejoe  (OP)
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06/02/2009 03:26 PM

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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?



no, not in the slightest. Can we admit that disinformation agents exist? Or have I already lost you there?

I've never seen evidence that they exist, just people disagreeing, sometimes with good reasons, sometimes not.

Do you have evidence other than what's in your original post?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 373696


I have extensively try to document my experience in the post. As far as additional information, no, but how about this. go to a main stream forum, post a thread about 911 truth that you can well source with links.

For instance, take this post as an example:

"9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon"
There seem to be holes in the official 9/11 story since the The 911 commission said themselves that they were deceived by the pentagon:" [link to www.washingtonpost.com]

And then, when posters come back with ad hominem and straw man attacks, you will see what I mean.
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AnTiSoShAL
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06/02/2009 03:27 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?


It's about you and you showed up within minutes to prove it. You're fired for being too obvious.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 693277

I would have to agree with Menow. You aren't discussing the idea of a disinformation agent as much as you are simply trying to create a current of belief in your ideas by turning those who disagree with you into the enemy.

MOST of the disinformation on here, and that is MOST of the information here in general, is just created for the lulz of those lurking and or participating. It just entertains them to lead gullible people to leaps of faith and credulity with little or no logic.

The reality is the conspiracy fringe is so fractured and self destructive that no one really needs to methodically and systematically attack it anymore. The internet has made that Passe. When conspiracies were about actual face to face meetings and public protest, disinformation was extremely powerful and common. Protests and word of mouth were powerful, and when they got on TV, things changed and people got scared. With the advent of the internet, even the craziest loner in his remote basement has the same vocal power as you and I. The end result is competing realities. mythologies and personalities prevent almost ANY single idea from catching on to any dangerous amount. Even ideas that are similar become battle grounds as each faction claims to know "the truth". The general public views the conspiracy crowd as freakish outcasts. You all destroy yourselves trying so hard to be the one with the truth. The only real dis-info going on in places like this is the occasional poking and prodding to keep the community riled up like competing ant colonies. A couple of carefully crafted leaks that contradict each other but seem credible, and once more the factions call each other names and look like complete loons to the rest of the world.

If we ever got together and coherently demanded actual science and evidence and disclosure on UFO's, Bank Fraud and a whole world of real issues, we might make some progress. As long as tomorrow there are 5 new woowoos claiming to be visited by aliens claiming to all have contradicting incontestable truths about insanity like Niburu, Chemtrails and the sun and moon randomly moving around that only they can see, then nothing will happen. As long as people keep buying into cults of personality and need and let them overpower basic science and common sense in exchange for a sense of belonging, then you are all your own dis-information agents.
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:28 PM
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I know some disinfo agents are not even paid to dis inform through spinning storys.
They are paid to infiltrate message boards and groups at administrative levels.
And cause disturbances and problems.
Such as banning mass amounts of people from the discussion and censoring what they say.
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:29 PM
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2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, .

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 693047


Maybe you're just trying to argue with people who are better informed than you.
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

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06/02/2009 03:32 PM

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2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, .



Maybe you're just trying to argue with people who are better informed than you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548017

i was quite well informed about the information I was discussing, and using documented main stream sources, peer reviewed scientific papers, and logical arguments.

It's a bit sad that even on a conspiracy website like GLP, that I have to try to prove that the possibility that disinfo. agents actually exist, no?
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Mad as hell!

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Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:35 PM
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As long as tomorrow there are 5 new woowoos claiming to be visited by aliens claiming to all have contradicting incontestable truths about insanity like Niburu, Chemtrails and the sun and moon randomly moving around that only they can see, then nothing will happen.
 Quoting: AnTiSoShAL 420394


Exactly. And if you think it through, the only "disinformation" conspiracy theory that makes any sense for a site like this would be people intentionally shilling implausible theories for the purpose of creating the effects you're describing.

I"m not saying that's actually happening, but it makes more sense than the other constant allegations.
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:37 PM
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2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, .



Maybe you're just trying to argue with people who are better informed than you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548017

Touche. The standard conspiracy delusion is that ANYONE who could know more about something than me and disagrees with my cause MUST be an agent sent to obstruct me. The logical fallacy being that no one can know more than me, lest my faith in myself be called in question, and it is always easier to question the veracity of others than ones self.

Maybe you're just too gullible and have traded discerning reason for the comforting delusion that you are special and empowered with secrets that make you a member of the elite few. Once there, its a long road back down to reality, and its way easier just to stay and lash out at anything that contradicts you. There isn't a downside really, as long as you keep true faith. That's how religions work. Once you've committed to faith, its never easier to admit fault then it is to remain faithful to a lie.
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:38 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?


It's about you and you showed up within minutes to prove it. You're fired for being too obvious.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 693277

rofl
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:39 PM
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If they dribble on for pages, it's a lie.

The answer should fit in 1 short sentence.
Duncan Kunz

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06/02/2009 03:39 PM
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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?



no, not in the slightest. Can we admit that disinformation agents exist? Or have I already lost you there?
 Quoting: joejoe

Not at all.

Certainly there are people who want us to believe that their versions of the way things work are the "truth", and they will misintertpret (or even invent) data, ignore any data which shows them wrong, ignore your posts and disappear from the thread (this is specially noticeable if the person you're discussing thigs with is an A/C), insult you and get into other ad hominem attacks, and so on.

However, I would question your term "agents"; I do not think that GLP is important enough for any group to mouont a campaign to dispute someone's weltanachauung, although you certainly have both Debunkers and True Believers who will keep an eye out for "hot-button" posts and jump on them
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward
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06/02/2009 03:41 PM
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2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, .



Maybe you're just trying to argue with people who are better informed than you.

i was quite well informed about the information I was discussing, and using documented main stream sources, peer reviewed scientific papers, and logical arguments.

It's a bit sad that even on a conspiracy website like GLP, that I have to try to prove that the possibility that disinfo. agents actually exist, no?
 Quoting: joejoe



But the fact that someon is an expert in the field they are debating is no proof of anything. There are plenty of people online who are experts on all sides of most issues and who will obsessively debate for long periods of time. It's been that way for the 16 years I've been online.

People keep bringing up the notion that the quick appearance of "debunkers" on a thread proves they are paid shills. What about the people who are constantly posting these threads and appearing on them with opposing opinions? Does that prove they're being paid by someone?
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

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06/02/2009 03:41 PM

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Seems to me that you're equating "disinformation" as someone who doesn't share your ideas or beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether he calls you an idiot, or uses carefully-reasoned mathematics to support his position; if he disagrees with you, it's "disinformation".

Is that it?



no, not in the slightest. Can we admit that disinformation agents exist? Or have I already lost you there?

Not at all.

Certainly there are people who want us to believe that their versions of the way things work are the "truth", and they will misintertpret (or even invent) data, ignore any data which shows them wrong, ignore your posts and disappear from the thread (this is specially noticeable if the person you're discussing thigs with is an A/C), insult you and get into other ad hominem attacks, and so on.

However, I would question your term "agents"; I do not think that GLP is important enough for any group to mouont a campaign to dispute someone's weltanachauung, although you certainly have both Debunkers and True Believers who will keep an eye out for "hot-button" posts and jump on them
 Quoting: Duncan Kunz

i am not talking about here on GLP. If you look at my post, i said it was a large, main stream, social networking site.
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AnTiSoShAL
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06/02/2009 03:43 PM
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Exactly. And if you think it through, the only "disinformation" conspiracy theory that makes any sense for a site like this would be people intentionally shilling implausible theories for the purpose of creating the effects you're describing.

I"m not saying that's actually happening, but it makes more sense than the other constant allegations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548017

This, my friend, DOES happen to a substantial degree. I personally know a loose knit association of folks who methodically and consistently flood GLP, Youtube and place unmentionable with deliberately made up content. You might have heard of some of their other work against a more popular and mainstream "chuch" that shouldnt be mentioned by name. Its not an act of an official organization, but the general agreement is that keeping people gullible enough to believe things below a certain threshold keeps them chasing their tales and keeps them from accumulating in cults and in ways that would be detrimental to the rest of the world. Think about the doomsday cult that gassed Japanese subways. A cult of easily influenced people is a powerful thing. Humanity is learning to fight that power intelligently, and indirectly....
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

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06/02/2009 03:44 PM

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2. The disinfo. agents often seem to be experts in the field they are debating, .



Maybe you're just trying to argue with people who are better informed than you.

i was quite well informed about the information I was discussing, and using documented main stream sources, peer reviewed scientific papers, and logical arguments.

It's a bit sad that even on a conspiracy website like GLP, that I have to try to prove that the possibility that disinfo. agents actually exist, no?



But the fact that someon is an expert in the field they are debating is no proof of anything. There are plenty of people online who are experts on all sides of most issues and who will obsessively debate for long periods of time. It's been that way for the 16 years I've been online.

People keep bringing up the notion that the quick appearance of "debunkers" on a thread proves they are paid shills. What about the people who are constantly posting these threads and appearing on them with opposing opinions? Does that prove they're being paid by someone?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548017

i am talking about the same people continually attacking a post with counter sources and links (at times with in depth threads) within in a minutes or less.
sometimes i really wonder why i bother and waste my time here with things like this...
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Guns n' God

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06/02/2009 03:46 PM
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No such thing as disinfo agents, you nut.
Duncan Kunz

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06/02/2009 03:50 PM
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i am not talking about here on GLP. If you look at my post, i said it was a large, main stream, social networking site.
 Quoting: joejoe


If that were the case, and if by social networking site, you mean internet sites, I couldn't answer, because I usually don't go there. But if you mean mainstream sites such as newspaper/television/radio or electioneering, then certainly you are correct. For example, Big Labor, Big Education, big Pharma, Big Government, Big Pig, and Big anything wants and needs their views to become accepted, because that it a sure way to power and influence.

And although these "disinfo agents" prefer to think of themselves as "lobbyists" and their function as "educating", they wiull say and do whatever to get their views acrosss, and lying comes as easy for them as it does to a politician.

But to be honest, it's kind of irrelevant to me. Maybe it's becasue I'm an engineer, but I believe that if you come up with logic backed with logic, demonstrable facts and clear math to bacak your stuff up, you can always beat the "disinformation agents".
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
joejoe  (OP)
J to the 3rd

User ID: 693047
Switzerland
06/02/2009 03:50 PM

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Re: Disinformation Agents Tactics in Online Forums: ideas, input, experiences and how to defeat them. Please share to help us all find the truth.
No such thing as disinfo agents, you nut.
 Quoting: Guns n' God

thanks gods n' guns, for your text book example of an ad hominem attack.

I will use this to edamacate some of the people here willing to learn. Notice GLPers, he has resorted to calling me a nut, without offering any logical arguments, facts or sources to come to this opinion.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject. Here, he has attempted to change the subject to my sanity, or lack of sanity.
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No clotshot, NEVER!
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Mad as hell!

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Duncan Kunz

User ID: 328931
United States
06/02/2009 03:52 PM
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Re: Disinformation Agents Tactics in Online Forums: ideas, input, experiences and how to defeat them. Please share to help us all find the truth.
sometimes i really wonder why i bother and waste my time here with things like this...
 Quoting: joejoe


Probably because -- like me -- you feel as strongly about your views as the "disinfo agent" does about his.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?





GLP