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June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 05:34 AM
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June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
RAPTURE?

A possible date as today is the Eastern Church's day of "Ingathering" for Pentecost or when the Pentecost festival ends.

Who knows? Possibly.

Some very critical events happening today.

Iran declares their winner.

Netanyahu delivers a speech that could possibly kick off the course for the 7 year peace treaty - which will trigger the 7 year tribulation.

Could this be the day brothers and sisters in our Lord, Christ?

Watch and Pray!

God Bless!
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 05:46 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
I am glad you are watching!

happens late not early!

more like 2016!!!!


ice
Faction4

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06/14/2009 05:48 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
The Rapture is wrongly interpreted... It works on a different level of consciousness.

The 14th of June is a very special and powerful Maya day though:

White Magnetic Wind
Green Central Castle of Enchantment
Earth family- Core
Clan- Fire
Galactic Activation Portal


I unify in order to communicate
Attracting breath
I seal the input of spirit
With the Magnetic tone of purpose
I am guided by my own power doubled
I am a galactic activation portal - enter me

[link to www.starroot.com]

Tone 1: Magnetic - Unity

White Wind is your Conscious Self - who you are and who you are becoming.

White Wind is the galactic wind, the catalyzing current, the Spirit that moves through all things. It is the divine breath that gives life to all creation, the unseen essence of solar energy. White Wind is the breath of inspiration, the fertilizing force of the wind. Its essence is the movement of Spirit as it penetrates into form to enliven, purify and inspire.

Receive the gift of White Wind by simply taking a conscious breath. Amidst the seemign complexity, beathe consciously. Allow your life to be more like the wind, free-flowing and open to Spirit.

White Wind represents spontaneity and simplicity. As you experience the truth of the present moment, White Wind leaves you free to move on to the next moment without the baggage of desire, regret or expectation. White Wind is the simple knowledge that invisible forces are always moving in your life, guiding and inspiring.

White Wind also embodies the concept of presence. Presence is an expression of beingness, a creator of intimacy. It has to do with being wise in your simplicity. From simple beingness, your true identity emerges. Presence is being open, aware, and in the now. Presence is 'being there' for whatever is.

Think back to a time when someone looked deeply into your eyes, acknowledging your beingness with their full presence. Remember how wonderful and intimate that felt. When you wnat to be intimate with someone, become equally open, aware, and present. When you bring your awareness into the present moment, everything else falls away. When you are fully present, your mind is not preparing responses to what it is hearing while you're listening and feeling. Drop your evaluating and reactive nature. Trust that your heart will have the appropriate response when the time comes. Allow your mind to be quietly responsive, like a pool of water, natural in its unconditional acceptance of the moment.

Presence is simple. It is like being caught in the moment by the beauty of nature. Presence is your natural state of being. When you are present, your heart feels open, charged, full. When you are present, whether alone or with another, you are loose and relaxed. Time may seem to slow down. You can expand your awareness with ease, allowing yourself to truly see and be seen. You let your feelings speak through your eyes, and the 'feeling channel' in you breathes freely, without expectation or judgement

Read more at [link to www.astrodreamadvisor.com]
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 05:56 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
There is no rapture you have been fooled.
It just goes on and on forever to torture you more.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 05:57 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
NO.. YOU FUCKIN' IDIOT!

No rapture.. EVER..
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 06:03 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
RAPTURE?
A possible date as today is the Eastern Church's day of "Ingathering" for Pentecost or when the Pentecost festival ends.

Who knows? Possibly.
Some very critical events happening today.
Iran declares their winner.
Netanyahu delivers a speech that could possibly kick off the course for the 7 year peace treaty - which will trigger the 7 year tribulation.
Could this be the day brothers and sisters in our Lord, Christ?
Watch and Pray!
God Bless!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 648926

I'm curious, where in the book of Revelation does it say 7 years for a tribulation?

All I've ever seen is 1260 days, or 3 & a half years, or 42 months. Take your pick, which ever way you look at it, only 3 & a half years is spoken of for the tribulation period throughout the whole book of Revelation.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 06:07 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
RAPTURE?
A possible date as today is the Eastern Church's day of "Ingathering" for Pentecost or when the Pentecost festival ends.

Who knows? Possibly.
Some very critical events happening today.
Iran declares their winner.
Netanyahu delivers a speech that could possibly kick off the course for the 7 year peace treaty - which will trigger the 7 year tribulation.
Could this be the day brothers and sisters in our Lord, Christ?
Watch and Pray!
God Bless!

I'm curious, where in the book of Revelation does it say 7 years for a tribulation?

All I've ever seen is 1260 days, or 3 & a half years, or 42 months. Take your pick, which ever way you look at it, only 3 & a half years is spoken of for the tribulation period throughout the whole book of Revelation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 439828


you are correct!

1260-1290 days

42 months

times x times x times and a half 3 1/2 years


Jesus had a earth ministry of 3 1/2 years before the cross

It's not a peace treaty that is the covenant !

Jesus dying on the cross stopped all daily sacrifice!

Jesus confirms the covenant with the many!


ice
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/14/2009 06:08 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Revelations 6:14

"The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 06:17 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Revelations 6:14

"The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 648926


OP

Rev repeats events over and over again. You have to study until you can see the same things as they are given.

As the 6 seal is opened is at the very end of the trib and opens earth up for the Great Day of the Lord!

The great day of wrath has come! Most of what we are talking about happens right now!

ice

Revelation 6
The Seals
1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Footnotes:
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 06:37 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
I will let you into a little secret;
What the Christians call 'rapture' has already started and as stated above it is happening on different levels of awareness. Many people are awakening and finding love in all of creation, even their fearful thoughts. Christians seem to cut themselves off from this divine source through rigid dogma and psychological stigma. The conditionality and limitations are being lifted but the cling to these illusions like a child clings to a torn ripped security blanket.

The series of shocks they are creating to shock themselves into some sort of mass realisation is the lazy and cowardly route but living in fear makes them concentrate on one outcome they designed many generations ago... this will not come to pass.

Many probability points in our collective progression have been encountered and the world's path has bifurcated and split off into many alternate earth paths in that period of linear time... there will be a convergence of probabilities so it will not be totally avoided... it will effect people on individual inner levels causing depression and psychosis begging people to learn their pervasive emotion of fear controls all their other emotions, they shun and repress all notions of self empowerment because they feel must cling to the safe ingrained idea they are always powerless and helpless. They are spiritual cowards and cannot fathom creating their realities with unconditional love and therefore must cling to the idea of complete destruction with only their miraculous survival because they gave away all rights to their own spirit to a higher power.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 06:37 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
RAPTURE?
A possible date as today is the Eastern Church's day of "Ingathering" for Pentecost or when the Pentecost festival ends.

Who knows? Possibly.
Some very critical events happening today.
Iran declares their winner.
Netanyahu delivers a speech that could possibly kick off the course for the 7 year peace treaty - which will trigger the 7 year tribulation.
Could this be the day brothers and sisters in our Lord, Christ?
Watch and Pray!
God Bless!

I'm curious, where in the book of Revelation does it say 7 years for a tribulation?

All I've ever seen is 1260 days, or 3 & a half years, or 42 months. Take your pick, which ever way you look at it, only 3 & a half years is spoken of for the tribulation period throughout the whole book of Revelation.

you are correct!
1260-1290 days
42 months
times x times x times and a half 3 1/2 years
Jesus had a earth ministry of 3 1/2 years before the cross
It's not a peace treaty that is the covenant !
Jesus dying on the cross stopped all daily sacrifice!
Jesus confirms the covenant with the many!

ice
 Quoting: Ice

Yes as you say, in the book of Daniel it is Jesus who after the seven 'sevens, & sixty-two 'sevens'(69 'sevens') "the Anointed One(Jesus) will be cut off(die) and will have nothing. Jesus "will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'(7 years-the last 70th 'seven').' In the middle of the 'seven'-years he(Jesus) will put an end to sacrifice and offering(by dying on the cross). So there is 3 & a half years remaining of the Jesus' appointed 'covenanted' seven years (when the two witnesses of God shall preach for 1260 days, then Jesus will "finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.(at the beginning of the 1000 year reign on Earth)

Daniel 9
The Seventy "Sevens"

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
DanG
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06/14/2009 06:52 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
worship worship KD
lol bricks
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 07:16 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
The rapture

ufo56
crazy
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06/14/2009 08:45 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
The false view of the rapture....The rapture will not occur until the middle of the tribulation,thus forcing the entire church to go threw the first 3 and 1half years of Gods wrath. This theory is called a mid-tribulation and is refuted by paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 where he says FOR GOD HATH NOT QPPOINTED US TO WRATH" That rapture will not occur until the end of the tribulation. This known is POST TRIBULATION, and is refuted by 1 thessalonians 5:9 and Rev. 3:10. NOW...tHE NEW TESTOMONT pitchures the Church as the body of Christ. If the mid-tribulation veiw were correct,then a part of this body would suffer amputation, and a section of the bride would be left behind. In addition to this. one would be forced to conclude that all bodies of carnal departed Christians would likewise be left in the grave. This simply is not the clear teaching of God. The Bible teaches that the rapture is pre-tribulationional in nature and includes all believers, Romans 5:9 and 1 thessalonians 1:10. Perhaps the strongest proof of this statement is the fact mentioned many times, but from chapture 6 of Rev. the church is maentioned many times,but from chapter 6-19 (the period of the tribulatin_) there is no mention of the church on earth. IN fact the only group which Saton can find to persecute is the nation Israel!! See Rev. 12-----------------Rev. 4:1 John declares "After this I looked, behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said Come up hither....We are told that Christians are Gods ambassadors on earth(2cor.5:20) and that he will someday declare war on this earth..The first thing that a president does after he declares war on another country is to call his ambassadars home!!!!! Thus we conclude that the church will escape the tribulation....
ThreshingSword

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06/14/2009 08:56 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Many prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the Lord's return and gathering of the saints to Him. These include Mystery Babylon falling, the destruction of the tares first, the wealth of the wicked being transferred to the righteous and the building up of the Davidic Kingdom of God and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in the latter day rain. And then, once all these things happen, the Antichrist will work his way by "flatteries" into this Davidic Kingdom and take control for a short while until he is destroyed at the Lord's 2nd coming.

So, in other words, NO June 2009 rapture!
craxy
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06/14/2009 09:14 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Many prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the Lord's return and gathering of the saints to Him. These include Mystery Babylon falling, the destruction of the tares first, the wealth of the wicked being transferred to the righteous and the building up of the Davidic Kingdom of God and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in the latter day rain. And then, once all these things happen, the Antichrist will work his way by "flatteries" into this Davidic Kingdom and take control for a short while until he is destroyed at the Lord's 2nd coming.

So, in other words, NO June 2009 rapture!
 Quoting: ThreshingSword

Im not saying a June rapture. Im saying the rapture is upon us... There been wars and rumors of wars, storms the list goes on. The time is really upon us now.. No one can put a date on the rapture. Just follow the events that take place and put it with scripture..... THE PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE:::(1) To judge and reward the church of God. "For we must all appear before the judjment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in gis body,wether good or bad(2cor,5:10).....(2)-- To remove the Spirit of GOd. Many theologians believe that the spirit of God(holy spirit) has been acting as a devine dam, faithfully holding bck the waters of sin. But at the rapture hes blessed influence will be removed to a large extent in order to prepare the way for the tribulation. The rapture is upon us now... At any time that trumpet will sound...Hope you are ready..
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:19 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
bump
crazy
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06/14/2009 09:19 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
The false view of the rapture....The rapture will not occur until the middle of the tribulation,thus forcing the entire church to go threw the first 3 and 1half years of Gods wrath. This theory is called a mid-tribulation and is refuted by paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 where he says FOR GOD HATH NOT QPPOINTED US TO WRATH" That rapture will not occur until the end of the tribulation. This known is POST TRIBULATION, and is refuted by 1 thessalonians 5:9 and Rev. 3:10. NOW...tHE NEW TESTOMONT pitchures the Church as the body of Christ. If the mid-tribulation veiw were correct,then a part of this body would suffer amputation, and a section of the bride would be left behind. In addition to this. one would be forced to conclude that all bodies of carnal departed Christians would likewise be left in the grave. This simply is not the clear teaching of God. The Bible teaches that the rapture is pre-tribulationional in nature and includes all believers, Romans 5:9 and 1 thessalonians 1:10. Perhaps the strongest proof of this statement is the fact mentioned many times, but from chapture 6 of Rev. the church is maentioned many times,but from chapter 6-19 (the period of the tribulatin_) there is no mention of the church on earth. IN fact the only group which Saton can find to persecute is the nation Israel!! See Rev. 12-----------------Rev. 4:1 John declares "After this I looked, behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said Come up hither....We are told that Christians are Gods ambassadors on earth(2cor.5:20) and that he will someday declare war on this earth..The first thing that a president does after he declares war on another country is to call his ambassadars home!!!!! Thus we conclude that the church will escape the tribulation....
 Quoting: crazy 687390
crazy
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06/14/2009 09:27 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Gotta go get ready for church.. See...Ya.... music angel3 byekitty
GraftedPromise
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06/14/2009 09:39 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
.
... NO WHERE ... I repeat ... NO WHERE ...
.
... is there a 7-year covenant mentioned in Revelation ...
.
... that DANIEL reference has already been fulfilled ... and Daniel 11 refers to the events leading up to the Birth of Yeshua ...
.
... and those Seals better open in order OR you can say the 1st Seal is the Last Seal!!!!! ...
.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:46 AM
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Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:46 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
RAPTURE?
A possible date as today is the Eastern Church's day of "Ingathering" for Pentecost or when the Pentecost festival ends.

Who knows? Possibly.
Some very critical events happening today.
Iran declares their winner.
Netanyahu delivers a speech that could possibly kick off the course for the 7 year peace treaty - which will trigger the 7 year tribulation.
Could this be the day brothers and sisters in our Lord, Christ?
Watch and Pray!
God Bless!

I'm curious, where in the book of Revelation does it say 7 years for a tribulation?

All I've ever seen is 1260 days, or 3 & a half years, or 42 months. Take your pick, which ever way you look at it, only 3 & a half years is spoken of for the tribulation period throughout the whole book of Revelation.


you are correct!

1260-1290 days

42 months

times x times x times and a half 3 1/2 years


Jesus had a earth ministry of 3 1/2 years before the cross

It's not a peace treaty that is the covenant !

Jesus dying on the cross stopped all daily sacrifice!

Jesus confirms the covenant with the many!


ice
 Quoting: Ice


Yes, 3 1/2 years.

Also, 3 1/2 days is mentioned, and there is Biblical precedent for a day equaling a year in prophecy. The 2 witnesses are said to testify for 3 1/2 days, which I believe to be 3 1/2 years.

This is what the book of Revelations says will happen to the 2 witnesses: The beast will rise up, make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

This is what the book of Revelations says will happen to the saints: The beast will rise up, make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

The 2 witnesses are 2 candlesticks and 2 olive trees. I believe the church = the 2 candlesticks.

After being dead for 3 1/2 days (3 1/2 years) the 2 witnesses will stand on their feet, hear a shout from the Lord, and ascend to heaven. This is the rapture of the righteous dead followed quickly by the rapture of the righteous who are still alive.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:49 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
refuted by 1 thessalonians 5:9 and Rev. 3:10.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (New International Version)

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

this is answered with a question, when does God's wrath begin?

Revelation 3:10 (New International Version)

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

we are blessed to be part of the first resurrection , it's all about timing!


I want to talk about these 2 but I will post 2 gathering unto Him verses first with timing in the verse.


Matt 24:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Rev 20:
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.




Pre trib has to explain away timing verses that don't fit your model! If you understand there will only be 2 general resurrections 1 of the Holy and 1 of the damned it makes things much easier to see.

You can hold on to a pre trib concept but at some point you will have to tell yourself you are wrong!!


ice
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:50 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
gee it would be nice if everyone was as smart as they thought. then there might be real answers instead of the infernal mystery-o-rama. but alas, we are allowed to know nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 09:54 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
gee it would be nice if everyone was as smart as they thought. then there might be real answers instead of the infernal mystery-o-rama. but alas, we are allowed to know nothing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 682487


the Word is a sharp sword that cuts to the bone!

apply the Word and not your own knowledge!


I do know nothing and I only try to stand of the Word of God!



ice
FubarMan

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06/14/2009 10:05 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
refuted by 1 thessalonians 5:9 and Rev. 3:10.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (New International Version)

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

this is answered with a question, when does God's wrath begin?

Revelation 3:10 (New International Version)

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

we are blessed to be part of the first resurrection , it's all about timing!


I want to talk about these 2 but I will post 2 gathering unto Him verses first with timing in the verse.


Matt 24:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Rev 20:
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.




Pre trib has to explain away timing verses that don't fit your model! If you understand there will only be 2 general resurrections 1 of the Holy and 1 of the damned it makes things much easier to see.

You can hold on to a pre trib concept but at some point you will have to tell yourself you are wrong!!


ice
 Quoting: Ice


Nice ice, very nice.
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 10:07 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Ummmmmm..... I guess not... sorry :)
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 10:21 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Pre trib has to explain away timing verses that don't fit your model! If you understand there will only be 2 general resurrections 1 of the Holy and 1 of the damned it makes things much easier to see.

You can hold on to a pre trib concept but at some point you will have to tell yourself you are wrong!!


ice
 Quoting: Ice


Sorry for the CP, but here is the first of your timing challenges.

Many non-pretribulationists contend that Matthew 24:31 teaches a posttribulational rapture. All agree that this passage teaches Christ' s second coming. This means that the question revolves around whether Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27 its parallel passage) is a reference to the rapture or not. I contend that the rapture is not in view in this passage. The text reads as follows:


" But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)


Posttribulational Position
Popular posttribulational radio personality, Irwin Baxter, believes that the rapture and the second coming " are the same event" in Matthew 24:31.[1] " Matthew 24:29 teaches that the coming of the Son of man and the rapture are the same event," contends Baxter. He arrives at this conclusion by comparing Matthew 24:29-31 to Christ' s return in Revelation 19. In the discussion cited, Baxter does not refer to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the undisputed rapture passage, as a baseline for defining the rapture.

Posttribulational rapture scholar, Dr. Robert Gundry, also equates the rapture with the second coming in Matthew 24:31. " Posttribulationists," contends Gundry, " equate the rapture with the gathering of the elect by angels at the sound of the trumpet (Matt. 24:31)." [2] Unlike Irwin Baxter, Dr. Gundry does interact with the rapture passage (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). He says, " If we define the rapture strictly as a catching up, only one passage in the entire New Testament describes it. That passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18." [3]


Definition of the Rapture
As noted earlier, Baxter does not even attempt to define the rapture. Apparently this allows Baxter flexibility to find the rapture in Matthew 24:31. As noted above, Dr. Gundry includes in his definition of the rapture " a catching up" from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Dr. Gundry wants to " broaden the definition to include a gathering or reception" from Matthew 24:31, etc.[4] Since the present debate is whether or not Matthew 24:31 is a rapture passage, it would beg the question to include Matthew 24:31 in an a priori definition of the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the only undisputed passage describing the rapture event. Only in this passage is the Greek word harpaz™ (" caught up" ) used, from which the word rapture descends. Whatever else the rapture may include in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it clearly consists of a translation of living believers and the simultaneous resurrection of dead saints.


Comparison of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Matthew 24:31
In an attempt to equate Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as referring to the same event, Dr. Gundry notes " parallel terminology in Paul' s Thessalonian discussion of the Church' s rapture, where we read of a trumpet, clouds, and a gathering of believers just as in the Olivet Discourse." [5] Indeed, there are some similarities between the rapture and the second coming. There are also some similarities between Christ' s first advent 2,000 years ago and His second advent. But all agree that they are not the same events. We know they are not the same because of the differences. In the case of comparing Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it is the differences that are important. Enough differences exist between the two passages to clearly conclude that they must be separate events.

Dr. Steven McAvoy points out that " the differences between Paul' s Thessalonian statements and Matthew 24:30-31 far outweigh any alleged similarities." [6] Dr. McAvoy continues:


Sproule asks,

Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt. 24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt. 24:31)?[7]

Feinberg also notes the dissimilarities between the two accounts:

Notice what happens when you examine both passages carefully. In Matthew the Son of Man comes on the clouds, while in 1 Thessalonians 4 the ascending believers are in them. In Matthew the angels gather the elect; in 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself (note the emphasis) gathers the believers. Thessalonians only speaks of the voice of the archangel. In the Olivet Discourse nothing is said about a resurrection, while in the latter text it is the central point. In the two passages the differences in what will take place prior to the appearance of Christ is striking. Moreover, the order of ascent is absent from Matthew in spite of the fact that it is the central part of the epistle.[8] [9]


In addition to the above differences, the order of events are different between the two passages. In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24 they are gathered after Christ' s arrival to earth. " In order for Gundry to establish his view that Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture, he must reconcile the dissimilarities; not simple point to a few similarities." [10] Thus, the differences in the two passages support the pretribulational contention that they are speak of two distinct events.


Who are the Elect?
I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period. Commentators generally recognize that " elect" " may refer to Israel, to the Church, or to both." [11] The context is the determinative factor in any attempt to discover which nuance the author intended. The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view," [12] observes Dr. Stanley Toussaint. Dr. Renald Showers provides a more focused explanation:


The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the believing remnant " mine Elect," and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on the earth.[13]


Since the term " elect" is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all three times. Dr. McAvoy says, " The rule of context precludes understanding ' elect' in 24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church. Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ' elect' in 24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24." [14]


The Angelic Gathering
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:


The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.[15]


Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.[16] After noting that " from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," [17] Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:


First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).

. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]


What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]


Conclusion
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!
Anonymous Coward
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06/14/2009 10:25 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
And Rev: 20

I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.
Wednesday

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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
There is no rapture you have been fooled.
It just goes on and on forever to torture you more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 701822

clappa
"Child of woe is wane and delicate...sensitive and on the quiet side, she loves the picnics and outings to the underground caverns...a solemn child, prim in dress and, on the whole, pretty lost...secretive and imaginitive, poetic, seems underprivileged and given to occasional tantrums...has six toes on one foot..."

Charles Addams
Elijah

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06/14/2009 10:28 AM
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Re: June 14, 2009 - RAPTURE?
Ice, just a few suggestions for your consideration.

There are THREE festivals that call for the gathering. Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. Just as there are three times, consider there may be three parts to the taking up during the course of the tribulation. Each would have it's own specific timing/meaning. Don't get to caught up in the time element. After all, there were many who were risen with Christ in 30AD and surely that still is part of the 1st resurrection.

It's possible that the fact so many see a pre, mid and post trib snatching away is simply because they all are true as opposed to the idea that only one sect can see clearly.

I also want to suggest that in Matthew 24, Jesus only takes us up to the 6th seal, not because it is Armageddon, but because this is all that is relevant to Christians heading into the Great Tribulation. Once he has us to this point, we are set to be gathered together.

Note the true turning point is this Abomination of Desolation and Gods obvious intervention that soon follows. The Sign of the son of Man is clearly the 6th Seal. We will see this before we go whether there be 1290 days, 7 years or 23 years remaining to Armageddon.

I submit that the 2 witnesses, the 144,000 and any that remain at Armageddon all have their times too. To simply have one escape would leave us with concluding that it must be at the very end. If we can see more than one escape then God can offer mercy more than once as the process unfolds.





GLP