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Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.

 
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Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.



Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Ephraim the Syrian said, in 373 AD,
"For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
[link to www.grantjeffrey.com]

Revelation 1:19
Write:
(1)the things which thou hast seen,
(2)and the things which are,
(3)and the things which shall be hereafter;
[link to www.khouse.org]


/-/-/-/-Christ in Prophecy: The Meaning of The Rapture-\-\-\-\



\-\-\-\-\-\ [link to video.godlikeproductions.com] -/-/-/-/-/-/



What is the "Tribulation" period?
It's a future 7-year period, also known as "Daniel's 70th Week" (Daniel 9:24-27), in which God will pour out His wrath on an unbelieving and unrepentant mankind, and chastise and refine the nation of Israel. The second half of this 7-year period Jesus said will be so bad that no period in history will ever be like it. Please refer to the following links for more information on Daniel's 70 Weeks- [link to www.lamblion.com] - [link to www.gotquestions.org] - [link to www.biblicist.org] - [link to www.biblebb.com] - [link to www.gotquestions.org] - [link to www.gotquestions.org]

Why is accurate knowledge of the pretribulation rapture important? Please read this short article on the link provided which lists 11 reasons why - [link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

-------------------------------------------------------------​-----------
[Below is an article of which I am not the author. It presents the Pretribulation Rapture quite well. Please read with an open heart, and remember always to keep Acts 17:11 in mind when dealing with anything presented. Below this article are links to more articles.]


What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."


Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture




The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.



The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).



What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I'm at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.



The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.



The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?



"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.



Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army's members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.



The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In several passages, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" (Dan 9:24). Scripture never mentions that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribbers try to claim that they are the ones being tested during the tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish believers in Revelation 7:2-8 who receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church dispensation into the same time frame as the seven-year Jewish dispensation, as the post-tribbers do, raises one good question: Can two dispensations transpire at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with one at a time. Having both present during the tribulation would have to be an exception.



"He" That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.



War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.



The Five Foolish Virgins
The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.



God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.



The Salt of the Earth
Jesus said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13). When the believers are suddenly removed, the earth will be plunged into spiritual darkness. When this happens, the Antichrist will then be free to control the world.



God Takes an Inventory
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits of information about this sealing highly disclaim a post-trib viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel. For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed. Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."



Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17:28. Most people argue over whether the time frame Jesus was talking about in that passage was pre-trib or post-trib. In doing so, they miss an important point. The two circumstances that the Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.

Common-Sense Reasons for Believing in the Pretribulation Rapture

The World Test
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered "yes," your chances of getting hired would not be good. Some internet sites do not allow the topics of Rapture or Second Coming. They do allow topics such as sex, gays, and drugs. The only time the news media mentions the rapture is when someone sets a date and is proven to be wrong.



That Old-Time Religion
It used to be a rule of thumb that when one was visiting a church or listening to a preacher, one could assume the preacher believed in repentance, prayer, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost if he taught the rapture doctrine. It was also true that the churches on fire for God worshipped out of storefronts. Today, many of those storefront churches have moved into marble palaces and have strayed from their principal doctrines.



Birds of a Feather Flock Together
Whenever I look at all the groups that teach false doctrine and are highly focused on end-time events, I cannot find any that support the rapture theory. Some organizations, the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, teach a false gospel and are heavily into Bible prophecy. Why, then, don't Jehovah's Witnesses teach a false doctrine that would be right up their alley? Could it be that the demonic forces that influence these groups know something that Christians opposed to the rapture don't know? The list of prophetically minded cults that reject the idea of a rapture goes on and on. Here are some more: the Mormons, the Worldwide Church of God and the Moonies, as well as leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.



The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.


We should all remember one thing: Knowing the Antichrist's mother's maiden name isn't the primary goal. Knowing Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and having your name written in the Lamb's Book of Life should be your number-one priority. The jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" The answer was, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:30-31).


[link to www.raptureready.com]
-------------------------------------------------------------​-----------
70 Weeks of Daniel
[link to www.biblicist.org] - "The Times of The Gentiles"
[link to www.ldolphin.org] - "Daniel 9:27: Antichrist or Christ?"
[link to www.biblebb.com] - "The Abomination of Desolation"
[link to www.biblebb.com] - "How Christ's Ministry Ended Exactly on The 69th Week"
[link to www.lamblion.com] - "Daniel: His End Time Prophecies"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "What is the Olivet Discourse?"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "What is the time of Jacob's trouble?"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "What is the abomination of desolation?"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "What is the Tribulation? How do we know the Tribulation will last seven years?"

- The Maccabean Revolt (167-164 B.C.) - Study of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A type of the Antichrist)
[link to faculty.bbc.edu]
[link to virtualreligion.net]
[link to preprod.ibsdev.org]
[link to arkphagrandlodge.com]
[link to christianactionforisrael.org]

- Error of Replacement Theology (The Belief That The Church Replaces Israel)
[link to www.therefinersfire.org]

- What is Ecclesiology? -
[link to www.gotquestions.org]

- Dispensational Truth - Clarence Larkin - [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
-- Chapters -- [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
-- Charts -- [link to www.blueletterbible.org]
-- Cuts -- [link to www.blueletterbible.org]


List of videos:
--Seventy Weeks Of Daniel
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Chuck Missler - Revelation - Session 12 - The 70th Week
[link to video.google.com]
--Chuck Missler - Revelation - Session 02 - (Ch.1) The Things Which Thou Hast Seen
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 159b - Sixth Seal; Wrath of the Lamb
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 158b - Sixth Seal; Hardened Hearts
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 157b - Seal Judgments; God Punishes the Earth Dwellers
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 156b - Seal Judgments; Martyrdom
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 155b - Seal Judgments 4-6
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 154b - The Seven Churches Revisited
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 153b - Judgement; God's Passive and Active Judgement
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 72b - Doctrine of the Imminency of the Rapture
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 73b - Why I Believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture P1
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 74b - Why I Believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture P2
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 75b - Why I Believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture P3
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Revelation Lesson 76b - When Will the Rapture Occur
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Revelation Lesson 77b - Difference Between the Rapture and Second Coming
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Revelation Lesson 78b - Rapture: Purpose of the Tribulation
[link to video.google.com]
--Revelation Lesson 79b - Testing: Tribulation, Rewards
[link to video.google.com]
--Chuck Missler - The Rapture - Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief P1
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Chuck Missler - The Rapture - Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief P2
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--John MacArthur The Rapture Of The Church
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Chuck Missler - This Generation - Session 01 -
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Chuck Missler - This Generation - Session 02-
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Revelation Lesson 167b - Salvation in the Tribulation
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Christ in Prophecy - Yearning for Jesus
[link to video.godlikeproductions.com]
--Is The Rapture A Jesuit Ploy?
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Why The 24 Elders in Revelation Signify a Pretrib Rapture
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Pre-trib Rapture is Bible Truth
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Why Is Pre-trib Rapture Hated So Much?
[link to www.youtube.com]
--50 Evidences For The Pretrib Rapture
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Biblical Proof of a Pretribulation Rapture
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Irrefutable PreTribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ
[link to www.youtube.com]
--My Vision of the Rapture
[link to www.youtube.com]
--Episode 7 - Visions of the Rapture
[link to www.arevolutionofthemind.net]

List of links to more articles:
[link to www.chick.com] - "Here He Comes!"
[link to www.khouse.org] - "Rapture Questions Continue: Our Blessed Hope"
[link to www.biblicist.org] - "Views of the Millennium and Rapture (In-Depth Study)"
[link to www.biblicist.org] - "Pre-Trib Rapture Deception?"
[link to www.biblebb.com] - "Biblical Evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture"
[link to www.pre-trib.org] - "Revelation 5, The Twenty-Four Elders, and The Rapture"
[link to www.pre-trib.org] - "Differences between 1Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24"
[link to www.lamblion.com] - "The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture"
[link to www.linkjesus.com] - "50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture"
[link to www.bibletrack.org] - "I Thessalonians 1-5"
[link to www.raptureme.com] - "Why I Believe The Bible Teaches Rapture Before Tribulation"
[link to www.grantjeffrey.com] - "Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?"
[link to www.rapturealert.com] - "16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture"
[link to www.rapturealert.com] - "The Rapture: What you need to know"
[link to www.rapturealert.com] - "Post-Rapture Survival Guide"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "The difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"
[link to www.gotquestions.org] - "How can I be ready to be caught up in the Rapture?"
[link to www.learnthebible.org] - "Children in the Rapture"
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org] - "Parousia. Same word, same event?"
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org] - "Apostasia: Fall Away / Departure / Change / Rapture"
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org] - "Online Bible Study: Rapture for Saints vs. Return with Saints"
[link to www.raptureready.com] - "Rapture Myths"
[link to www.raptureready.com] - "Antichrist, and the falling away of 2 Thes. chp 2"
[link to www.gracethrufaith.com] - "Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)"
[link to www.raptureforums.com] - "The Rapture of the Church"
[link to www.raptureforums.com] - "The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3"
[link to www.raptureforums.com] - "Matthew 24:31 - Rapture Or Second Coming?"
[link to www.raptureforums.com] - "Yet, Another Pre-Darby Rapture Statement"
[link to www.raptureforums.com] - "Why I Believe The Bible Teaches Rapture Before Tribulation"
[link to www.jesus-is-savior.com] - "Biblical Proof of a Pretribulation Rapture"

-What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?-
[link to www.gotquestions.org]

-The Jewish Wedding Ceremony and the Bride of Christ-
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

-A Bible Study of the Marriage of the Bride of Christ (The Jewish Wedding)-
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

-The Marriage of the Bride of Christ-
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

1. The Holy Spirit chooses the bride, and brings people to God through repentance
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

2. A bride price (dowry) is established, Christ gave his life to purchase and redeem us
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

3. Consent: the bride agrees and chooses to accept her husband's offer
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

4. Written document, Covenant agreement, written registry
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

5. Drinking a glass of wine; a toast, a communion, seals the covenant agreement
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

6. Betrothal [espoused/engaged/promised]
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

7. Ritual Cleansing bath; a Mikveh or Baptism
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

8. Gifts given to the Bride
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

9. The bridegroom departed, going back to his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber, closet (many mansions)
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

10. The bride was consecrated, set apart, and kept herself ready for the bridegroom to return, and wore a vail which is like the blood of Jesus covering our sins, the righteousness of the saints
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

11. Bridegroom comes for his Bride on a "day or hour no man knows, but my father only" with a shout, command, last trump, trumpet blast
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

12. Jesus comes for (raptures) his Bride as a Thief
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

13. Going through the open door into heaven (at the rapture)
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

14. The bridal week (a day for a year) in the wedding chamber as the tribulation week of Daniel
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

15. (Marriage supper / Wedding Feast) when the bride and groom emerge from the bridal chamber at the end of seven days, and the Lord returns with the Bride at the end of the seven year tribulation
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

16. The slaughter at the marriage supper
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

17. The bride and groom were seen as king and queen, trumpet blasts herald the reign of a new king, at the rapture at the trumpet blast, Christ and his people begin to rule in heaven
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

18. The Judgment Seat of Christ, (pictured by the Feast of Trumpets, a picture of the wedding of the messiah, and rapture.)
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]

What is the marriage supper of the Lamb?
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
---
[link to www.pretribulationrapture.com]
[link to www.jesus-is-savior.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureready.com]
[link to www.bibleprophesy.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.rapturealert.com]
[link to www.lamblion.com]
[link to www.pre-trib.org]
[link to www.ldolphin.org]
[link to www.khouse.org]

My vision of the Rapture!!! I was *there*!!
Thread: My vision of the Rapture!!! I was *there*!!

Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, ďYes, I am coming soon.Ē

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
 Quoting:


Last Edited by Aenon on 09/21/2010 09:31 PM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 802294
Canada
10/25/2009 06:37 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Sorry, not according to the Lutheran Church.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 802294
Canada
10/25/2009 06:37 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Sorry, not according to the Lutheran Church.
Goddrunk  (OP)

User ID: 801924
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10/25/2009 06:43 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
There's only one true Church. That Church is the body of Christ, and it goes by no other name. Amen!
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:05 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Fact.


5a
 Quoting: Goddrunk




Keep the faith victory is near!!!
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:10 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Thats weird..because of all the scriptures I read about it..the harvests take place at the LAST trumper when the moon is blood and the sun is black and AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

Id like to see your scriptures that CLEARLY SAY it takes place before any of this.

Bet you cant find ONE..

I can find over 20 that sat CLEARLY when it takes place..no conjecture..no twisting words..just clearly and simply saying WHEN it takes place.

But..you first..seeing as you think its FACT!
tkwasny

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump...

Sorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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10/25/2009 07:15 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump...

Sorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone.
 Quoting: tkwasny



Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation?
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:18 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Jesus said WATCH!
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR!
IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib)
OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib)
OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath)
OR AT MORNING!(post-trib)

THERE FORE!
WATCH!!!
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Jesus said WATCH!
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR!
IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib)
OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib)
OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath)
OR AT MORNING!(post-trib)

THERE FORE!
WATCH!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802337



Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. tounge

Thanks for posting.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:21 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Jesus said WATCH!
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR!
IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib)
OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib)
OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath)
OR AT MORNING!(post-trib)

THERE FORE!
WATCH!!!



Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. tounge

Thanks for posting.
 Quoting: Goddrunk

God bless you.
WATCH AND BE READY!
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:43 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Pre Trib rapture is a Lie, There is no secret rapture there is no clthes going to be neetly folded in a pile were you should be... Tim Lahaye is a heretic, Pre Trib Rapture is false Doctrine.

Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil!
Go back to Mother Catholic church! which is the Harlot


YOU WILL GO THROUGH TRIBULATION !



2Th 2:3 KJV - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 KJV - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:8 KJV - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 KJV - [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 KJV - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 KJV - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

-----------------------------------------------------

All of these versus are the same EVENT


1Cr 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
-----------------------------------------------
Mat 24:29 KJV - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:40 KJV - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 KJV - Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
---------------------------------------------
Rev 6:12 KJV - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 KJV - And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 KJV - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
-----------------------------------------------
Rev 14:14 KJV - And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15 KJV - And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16 KJV - And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

----------------------------------------------

1Th 4:15 KJV - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 KJV - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

----------------------------------------------------

Your Pre Trip, Repent of your sins works salvation, speakin da tonguesa! rock concert , flailing in the ilse churches are FAKE. Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil!


To be saved

Act 16:30 KJV - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 KJV - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


+ nothing - Nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:44 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
wow saying fact is fail, quoting bible quotes to prove something is just another fail.

this thread gets bsflag and a 1 star.
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 07:52 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Does it really matter? If you are saved and going to be a part of Gods Kingdom regardless....does it really matter?
Ozicell

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10/25/2009 07:53 AM

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Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation!
That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon.
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
[link to endtimepilgrim.org]

Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!!

I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it??

Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF??

HERE are my results.

I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life.

=========================================================

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
 
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
 
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.
 
At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.
 
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.
 
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.
 
I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.
 
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.
 
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.
Grinse

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Romans 14:1

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.


..One of my favorite chapters, I only post it here because it's folly to argue about non-essential doctrine. Believing pre-trib, or post-trib does not make one an evil doer. And it's pointless to argue the matter if it makes others weak in their faith.

Regardless we are told to watch for Him always and treat it as imminent.
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
[link to endtimepilgrim.org]

Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!!

I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it??

Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF??

HERE are my results.

I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life.

=========================================================

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
 
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
 
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.
 
At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.
 
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.
 
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.
 
I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.
 
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.
 
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802335


The second coming is Christ actually stepping foot on Earth and the Rapture is a gathering in the clouds (If you had half a brain the differences can be found using a dictionary to look up the term 'Rapture'):

[link to www.thefreedictionary.com]
rap·ture (rpchr)
n.
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures
To enrapture.

What sense would it make for the two events to be back to back. I also would like you to find me scripture of the pre tribulation church being placed on earth at ANYTIME during the tribulation prior to the end of Armaggeddon. Good luck!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 785071
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10/25/2009 08:13 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Jesus said WATCH!
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR!
IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib)
OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib)
OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath)
OR AT MORNING!(post-trib)

THERE FORE!
WATCH!!!



Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. tounge

Thanks for posting.
 Quoting: Goddrunk

I read about good christian people wickedly oppressed by governments all over the globe. Missionaries martyred in Asia, christans starving and murdered in Africa, christians living hand to mouth all over South America. I know that governments will become more wicked as time marches on.
[link to www.savemenowjesus.com]
I think the whole debate about WHEN christians will be raptured is a luxury most Christians do not have as their lives are already threatened every day. Many in the Church are experiencing terrible tribulation. I wonder if the Church in the united states could weather merely half of what other christians are experiencing all over the world. First world christians may have to endure the breakdown of society along with what comes with mob rule. As Jesus said, "when I return will i find faith on the Earth?"
Anonymous Coward
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10/25/2009 08:20 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
[link to endtimepilgrim.org]

Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!!

I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it??

Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF??

HERE are my results.

I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life.

=========================================================

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
 
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
 
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.
 
At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.
 
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.
 
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.
 
I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.
 
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.
 
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


The second coming is Christ actually stepping foot on Earth and the Rapture is a gathering in the clouds (If you had half a brain the differences can be found using a dictionary to look up the term 'Rapture'):

[link to www.thefreedictionary.com]
rap·ture (rpchr)
n.
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures
To enrapture.

What sense would it make for the two events to be back to back. I also would like you to find me scripture of the pre tribulation church being placed on earth at ANYTIME during the tribulation prior to the end of Armaggeddon. Good luck!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 786565


I didnt think anyone would have the GUTS to read this...its OBVIOUS you didnt,,because what is above totally shoots your theory to bits.

If you HAD read it..you WOULD have changed your mind.

I did..and I believe thae SAME lies and reasonings as YOU so now for over 40 YEARS!!!!

Until one day I had the GUTS to SEE what the bible actually SAID about it instead of what the false teachers and money makers taught (Yes..pre trib is BIG BUSINESS and makes BILLONS..its an EASY EAR TICKLING LOAD OF CRAP THAT SELLS!!!!!

With not ONE SHRED of PROOF in the scriptures.
tkwasny

User ID: 763594
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10/25/2009 08:23 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump...

Sorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone.



Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation?
 Quoting: Goddrunk


So let me guess, your trying to say one book has nothing to do with any other book. Strictly micro-cosmic view.
tkwasny

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United States
10/25/2009 08:26 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation!
 Quoting: Ozicell


You nailed it. The Word is personal as well as sociological and historical using many methods to get through all dependant upon the reader using the eyes and direction of the Holy Spirit.
Ozicell

User ID: 798846
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10/25/2009 08:27 AM

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump...

Sorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone.



Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation?
 Quoting: Goddrunk


Ok, spill the beans! What do YOU believe it means?
That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon.
MagiChristmas

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10/25/2009 08:38 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Fact.


5a
 Quoting: Goddrunk


Fictitious = wishfull thinking. laugh
The deception continues to crumble.
Thread: Tips for improving the GLP experience.
Christ was mischaracterized to the point of Crucifixion.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Pre Trib rapture is a Lie, There is no secret rapture there is no clthes going to be neetly folded in a pile were you should be... Tim Lahaye is a heretic, Pre Trib Rapture is false Doctrine.

Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil!
Go back to Mother Catholic church! which is the Harlot
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357


Whether Tim Lahaye is a heretic or not, Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Biblical.

YOU WILL GO THROUGH TRIBULATION !
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357


Of course! Christians always go through tribulation! We are told to expect it in this world!

2Th 2:3 KJV - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 KJV - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:8 KJV - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9 KJV - [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 KJV - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 KJV - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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1Th 4:15 KJV - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 KJV - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

----------------------------------------------------
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357


2 Thes. 2 begins with Paul mentioning the Day of the Lord and our being gathered to him. These are 2 different things because the Day of the Lord is the Great Tribulation that ends when He comes to Earth. Our being gathered to Him is the Rapture when we go to be with Him.

Then he said the Day of the Lord canít happen until thereís a great falling away followed by the anti-Christ standing in the Temple saying that heís God. (2 Thes. 2:4) Finally, he said that the anti-Christ canít be revealed until the one holding him back is taken out of the way. (2 Thes.2:7) The one holding him back is the Holy Spirit, sealed in the Church.

So before the Day of the Lord can come the anti-Christ has to be revealed, and before that can happen the Church has to be gone. Turn it around and it means, first the church has to go (Rapture) then the anti-Christ is revealed, and then the Day of the Lord begins. At the end of it the Lord returns and the anti-Christ is destroyed.

Yes the Rapture and the 2nd Coming are separate events. But that doesnít mean the Lord comes 3 times. Both the first and second comings bring the Lord to Earth for extended periods of time. (33 years and1000 years) The Rapture doesnít involve the Lord coming to Earth at all. Rather, we go some where off the planet to meet him.

Trumpets are used many times in the Bible because the piercing sound they make gets peopleís attention. The trumpet mentioned in Matt. 24:31 is for gathering the Lordís elect (believers) from one end of the heavens to the other. This is to prepare them for their return to Earth at the 2nd Coming. Itís not the same as 1 Thes. 4 because Matt. 24 speaks of angels (plural) being sent to gather, where 1 Thes.4 mentions only the Arkangel (singular). The term Arkangel is used only of Michael. The trumpet call of God in 1Thes. 4 and the Last Trump of 1 Cor. 15 are not to be confused with the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 for this reason.

Some try to identify the the Last Trump of 1 Cor. 15 as the seventh Trumpet of Rev. 11:15, which is also incorrect. But even if they were the same the seventh Trumpet is blown 2 chapters before the Great Tribulation begins, which happens in Rev. 13, not at its end.

[link to gracethrufaith.com]

All of these versus are the same EVENT

1Cr 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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Mat 24:29 KJV - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:40 KJV - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 KJV - Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
---------------------------------------------
Rev 6:12 KJV - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 KJV - And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 KJV - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
-----------------------------------------------
Rev 14:14 KJV - And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15 KJV - And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16 KJV - And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357


These aren't all the same event. Revelation 6 and Revelation 8 both seem to have the same event spoken of in Matthew 24:29, so they can't all be the same event. Not to mention, Jesus also tells us that after the event of the sun, moon and stars that the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven and all the tribes will mourn because He will be coming with great glory (Revelation 19:11-16), and in Revelation 6 and 8 it says no such thing.


Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

To fully understand this verse, you must understand the ancient Jewish wedding. Please watch this video, it is probably 9 minutes long and describes quite well.




Last Edited by Aenon on 10/25/2009 09:07 AM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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10/25/2009 08:56 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Fictitious = wishfull thinking. laugh
 Quoting: MagiChristmas



Yeah. Sounds a lot like your Mormon beliefs.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Ok, spill the beans! What do YOU believe it means?
 Quoting: Ozicell



Not sure :(
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
tkwasny

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10/25/2009 08:59 AM
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump...

Sorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone.



Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation?


Ok, spill the beans! What do YOU believe it means?
 Quoting: Ozicell


The knowledge in the words of the Bible are meant to be unique for each individual reading the Bible IF, and only works IF, they are modulated in conjunction with the presence of the Holy Spirit that can only exist inside each of us by having implanted the Door.

Without using the decryption device, the Guide, the demodulator with the words in the Bible, the events that are exposed to each of us each second, it's all just words in a book and random events that happen in our lives.

You use your Guide like I use mine and there you will have all your answers. For me to tell you with text or voice is worthless to you. Only the true Absolute Voice can reveal your path, what you are to know and when.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
So let me guess, your trying to say one book has nothing to do with any other book. Strictly micro-cosmic view.
 Quoting: tkwasny



You have to remember that Paul was using the Old Testament. We know that the "last trump" which Paul spoke of was not the ultimate last trumpet, because there will be trumpets in the Millennial Kingdom. I think the last trump just means the trumpet which signifies our duty is over, and that we are going home!
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation!


You nailed it. The Word is personal as well as sociological and historical using many methods to get through all dependant upon the reader using the eyes and direction of the Holy Spirit.
 Quoting: tkwasny



I agree. Interpretation without the Holy Spirit is very fruitless. I also agree that we have tribulation while in this world!
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Sandpiper
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Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.
I believe the word of GOD...He will keep us from,(out) of the tribulation, this is the BLESSED HOPE.





GLP