Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead.

There's evidence. However, God's wrath at this point plays more of a 'passive' role. Christ takes His church, then the whole world is ensnared with sudden birth pangs (Luke 21:35; 1Thessalonians 5:3; Revelation 3:10). Notice the appearance of the Antichrist from Daniel 9:27:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let's examine what Paul says about this character in 2Thessalonians 2:3:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


Paul says the Son of Perdition (Antichrist) cannot come about until after some sort of falling away. Paul later says in 1Thessalonians 2:7 that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way.

Please take note of something: 1Thessalonians was written before the Book of John. Please allow me explain why I mention this.

In Revelation chapter 5, starting at verse 1, John sees a book (or scroll) in the right hand of the Father (who sits on the throne). John soon finds out that no one is worthy to open the seals on the scroll, then begins to weep, only later to find out that Jesus Christ is the only one qualified to do open the scroll, and is designated to do so as recorded in the next chapter. In chapter 6 of the Book of Revelation, starting at verse one, we see that after the only person able to open the seals on the scroll, Jesus, does in fact open the first seal. And to some of our surprise, by doing this act, Jesus unleashes the Antichrist onto the world scene. Please read the following:

Revelation 5:1-5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

How do we know that this is the Antichrist? Here are some reasons:


- Jesus and the 1st seal rider both ride white horses
- Jesus and the 1st seal rider both wear crowns
- Jesus and the 1st seal rider both make war




A mild form of God's justice, compared to direct justice, is simply by allowing man to get exactly what he wants. We can see that from very many passages in the Bible. For example, Numbers 11, the Israelites:

v1-13
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched. And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burnt among them. And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: but now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes. And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium. And the people went about, and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil. And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it. Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased. And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me? Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers? Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.

v31-34
And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth. And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp. And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague. And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

Here are a few more examples:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Matthew 27:24When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

2Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Also, let us not forget passages which clearly reveal to us that God purposefully uses the methods of evil men to fulfill His good providence (and even raises some up specifically for this purpose only):

Genesis 50:19-20 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Acts 4:24-28 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Romans 9:17-22 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

Isaiah 10:5-22 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings? Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus? As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: and my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood. Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; and shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

[The above chapter of Isaiah is also a type shadow of the last days and the Antichrist, by the way. I just thought I would mention that. The following is also a picture of the Antichrist. Please pay special attention the very first two verses.]

Zechariah 11:15-17 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.



Plagues of Revelation described by Ezekiel as God's judgment:

(1)Sword [Revelation 6:3-4]
(2)Famine [Revelation 6:5-6]
(3)Noisome beast [Revelation 6:7-8]
(4)Pestilence [Revelation 6:7-8]

Ezekiel 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the (1)sword, and the (2)famine, and the (3)noisome beast, and the (4)pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?"

It's also clear that God uses earthquakes as a form of judgment.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


I also think it best we establish the correct definition of the word 'wrath' here, as Satan's wrath is very different from God's not only by mere grammar but also intention. Not only this, but clearly the text shows us that Satan's wrath only begins when he is cast out of Heaven. Let's start by defining God's wrath used in the context of seals opened:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath [G3709 - orge] of the Lamb

Strong's - G3709 - orge
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
-a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

AV — wrath 31, anger 3, vengeance 1, indignation 1
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]


The same Greek word is used in another verse in such a way to imply just punishment:

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath [G3709 - orge]: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



The next is most obvious to all who understand the nature of Satan, but maybe it would be best if we go over it anyway. So, here we go. Defining Satan's wrath:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath [G2372 - thymos] , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Strong's - G2372 - thymos
1) passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again
2) glow, ardour, the wine of passion, inflaming wine (which either drives the drinker mad or kills him with its strength)

AV — wrath 15, fierceness 2, indignation 1
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]


If God's wrath is merely just punishment for said crime, then can we not rightly conclude that whatsoever a man sows, that also must he reap? If men sow in their heart the desire to be unchained from God (Psalm 2:1-5) does God not rightly give them exactly what they want?


Please review the following study and see why I have full confidence that Revelation, beginning at chapter 6 and ending at 20, is Daniel's 70th Week magnified.


-THE DAY OF THE LORD-

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Matthew 24:42-44
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1Thessalonians 5:2-3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail [G5604 ODIN] upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 Quoting:

Matthew 24:8
All these are the beginning of sorrows [G5604 ODIN].

Sorrows/Travail - G5604
odin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.

Strong's G5604
1) the pain of childbirth, travail pain, birth pangs
2) intolerable anguish, in reference to the dire calamities precede the advent of the Messiah
AV — sorrow 2, pain 1, travail 1
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]
---

-THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS-

False Christs:
Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Revelation 6:2
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Wars and Rumors of Wars:
Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

Revelation 6:3-4
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Famines, Pestilences, Earthquakes:
Matthew 24:7
and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Revelation 6:5-8, 12
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.... And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

Matthew 24:8
All these are the beginning of sorrows.

-THE APPEARANCE OF THE ANTICHRIST-

[This one in Daniel 8:23-25 is a picture of both Antiochus and the Antichrist, because it says he will also stand against the Prince of princes and be destroyed without hand - Antiochus died from a disease, Antichrist will die from the Word of the Lord and the brightness of His coming]

Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelation 6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

-THE SECOND HALF OF THE 7-YEAR PERIOD BEGINS WITH THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION-

The Antichrist is allowed to continue forty-two months. Forty-two months is simply 3 and a half years. This is clearly the second half of the 7-year period of Daniel's 70th week.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 Quoting:

The second half of Daniel's 70th week of Daniel 9:27 and birth pangs of Matthew 24:15 are both referenced in 2Thessalonians 2:3, 4 and Revelation 13 on.

Daniel 9:27
.... and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2Thessalonians 2:3, 4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:1-18
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Continuation of the Abomination of Desolation

Revelation 13:11-18
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

-GREAT TRIBULATION-

Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Temple Desolation, Exaltation Higher Than God, Idol Worship:
Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Revelation 13:5, 6
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven

Revelation 13:15-18
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Large Scale Slaughter:
Matthew 24:16-22
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

False Christs Doing Miracles:
Matthew 24:23-26
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Revelation 13:11-14
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Second Coming of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19:11-21
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Last Edited by Aenon on 09/10/2010 12:32 PM

But what about the scripture that teaches the tribulation period will be shortened for the love of the elect? Jesus said that to the disciples I believe.

OP, I sense that you enjoy confusing people with your copying and pasting knowledge; however, it is NOT going to work in my case nor am I going to back down. … And, when I say that I have personal feelings about something going on in prophecy THAT DOESN’T MEAN I AM TEACHING MY PERSONAL FEELINGS AS DOCTRINE. SOLA SCRIPTURE IS WHAT COUNTS!
I AM BRINGING THIS “THOUSAND” YEAR SUBJECT UP AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG. You can post your knowledge on this subject to your heart’s content, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Jesus never taught about His Kingdom being on earth for a thousand years nor did the apostles. When we tell you that, we are ignored … so, get used to me continuing to call you on the carpet for false teaching.

I was one of those amillennialists who fell for the pretrib teaching because of the THOUSAND YEARS. Since I did not understand the background of these THOUSAND YEARS in Revelation 20,I started looking for what could possibly be going on during that time period. Ah, when I finally got a clue to look at the Greek word for THOUSAND and the Hebrew word for THOUSAND … I finally understood my mind was literally being taken to the cleaners by another denomination.

By the way, amillennialism IS NOT SORCERY nor is it witchcraft. Amillennialism is SOLA SCRIPTURE! … And, I might say, millennialists do not believe in taking Scripture out of context and turning prophecy into a soap opera to make a FAST BUCK!
OP, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PLURAL ADJECTIVE “THOUSAND” THAT STANDS ALONE AND MODIFIES THE PLURAL NOUN in Revelation 20. You can also find examples of same in the Old Testament.
There are examples in the Bible where “thousand,” STANDING ALONE, is not used as an ordinary number; such as, 1,260, 4,000, 7,000, etc. In these standing alone examples, thousand is expressing a different meaning. You can’t use 1,260 or any other such number in certain Bible verses because it wouldn’t make any sense.
The Greek word for THOUSAND is “chilioi”; the meaning in Greek is “plural of UNCERTAIN affinity; a thousand: -thousand.” IN OTHER WORDS, THE THOUSAND DOES NOT HAVE A LITERAL MEANING.
The Hebrew word for THOUSAND is “eleph”; this word also has the same meaning as chilioi.
Examples of “Eleph”:
Psalm 50:10 … “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a THOUSAND hills.
Psalm 105:8 …”He remembers His covenant forever, the word which he commanded for a THOUSAND generations.”
Deuteronomy 7:9 … “Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a THOUSAND generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.”
It is clear from these examples that God is talking about all the hills and all generations; therefore, THOUSAND DOES NOT HAVE A LITERAL MEANING. The THOUSAND in Revelation 20 also does not have a literal meaning. The Greek word “Chilioi” and the Hebrew word “eleph” both have uncertain meanings. … OR, MAYBE WE SHOULD SAY THAT THE “THOUSAND” THAT STANDS ALONE IN CERTAIN VERSES EXPRESSES THE “SUM TOTAL OF” IN FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE.
JESUS AND THE APOSTLES NEVER TAUGHT ABOUT A KINGDOM REIGN IN JERUSALEM FOR 1,000 YRS. In Luke 17: 20, 21 … Jesus said, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.” In v. 21 he said, “Neither shall they say , Lo here! or, lo there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
When we tell you what Jesus said and quote the Bible verses, this is not sorcery.

I had to repost this reply as my comments posted when I was not ready.

OP, I sense that you enjoy confusing people with your knowledge; however, it is NOT going to work in my case nor am I going to back down. … And, when I say that I have personal feelings about something going on in prophecy THAT DOESN’T MEAN I AM TEACHING MY PERSONAL FEELINGS AS DOCTRINE. SOLA SCRIPTURE IS WHAT COUNTS!

I AM BRINGING THIS “THOUSAND” YEAR SUBJECT UP AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG. You can post your knowledge on this subject to your heart’s content, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Jesus never taught about His Kingdom being on earth for a thousand years nor did the apostles. When we tell you that, we are ignored … so, get used to me continuing to call you on the carpet for false teaching.

I was one of those amillennialists who fell for the pretrib teaching because of the THOUSAND YEARS. Since I did not understand the background of these THOUSAND YEARS in Revelation 20, I started looking for what could possibly be going on during that time period. Ah, when I finally got a clue to look at the Greek word for THOUSAND and the Hebrew word for THOUSAND … I finally understood my mind was literally being taken to the cleaners by another denomination.

By the way, amillennialism IS NOT SORCERY nor is it witchcraft. Amillennialism is SOLA SCRIPTURE! … And, I might say, millennialists do not believe in taking Scripture out of context and turning prophecy into a soap opera to make a FAST BUCK!

OP, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PLURAL ADJECTIVE “THOUSAND” THAT STANDS ALONE AND MODIFIES THE PLURAL NOUN in Revelation 20. You can also find examples of same in the Old Testament.

There are examples in the Bible where “thousand,” STANDING ALONE, is not used as an ordinary number; such as, 1,260, 4,000, 7,000, etc. In these standing alone examples, thousand is expressing a different meaning. You can’t use 1,260 or any other such number in certain Bible verses because it wouldn’t make any sense.

The Greek word for THOUSAND is “chilioi”; the meaning in Greek is “plural of UNCERTAIN affinity; a thousand: -thousand.” IN OTHER WORDS, THE THOUSAND DOES NOT HAVE A LITERAL MEANING.

The Hebrew word for THOUSAND is “eleph”; this word also has the same meaning as chilioi.

Examples of “Eleph”:

Psalm 50:10 … “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a THOUSAND hills.

Psalm 105:8 …”He remembers His covenant forever, the word which he commanded for a THOUSAND generations.”

Deuteronomy 7:9 … “Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a THOUSAND generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.”

It is clear from these examples that God is talking about all the hills and all generations; therefore, THOUSAND DOES NOT HAVE A LITERAL MEANING. The THOUSAND in Revelation 20 also does not have a literal meaning. The Greek word “Chilioi” and the Hebrew word “eleph” both have uncertain meanings. … OR, MAYBE WE SHOULD SAY THAT THE “THOUSAND” THAT STANDS ALONE IN CERTAIN VERSES EXPRESSES THE “SUM TOTAL OF” IN FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE.

JESUS AND THE APOSTLES NEVER TAUGHT ABOUT A KINGDOM REIGN IN JERUSALEM FOR 1,000 YRS. In Luke 17: 20, 21 … Jesus said, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.” In v. 21 he said, “Neither shall they say , Lo here! or, lo there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

When we tell you what Jesus said and quote the Bible verses, this is not sorcery.

Nowhere in the example Bible verses you mentioned does it say that the Kingdom of God is on earth for 1000 yrs.

Luke 17: 20, 21 … Jesus said, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation.” In v. 21 he said, “Neither shall they say , Lo here! or, lo there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” NOW WHEN WE POINT THESE VERSES OUT TO YOU, OP, YOU IGNORE THEM AND TRY FIND WAYS TO DISPUTE OR IGNORE WHAT JESUS SAID. I am wondering out loud if you are a cult because of your attitude towards the spoken words of Christ.

In Acts 1: 6-11 when Jesus said that it wasn’t for the Jews to know the times or the seasons, he didn’t indicate that the Israelites’ kingdom would be here on earth. You know why? Most of them did not believe he was the Messiah! UNBELIEVERS RECEIVE NO BLESSINGS OR PROMISES … EXCEPT FOR ETERNAL DAMNATION.

Remember, that the Gentile believers in Christ and the Jewish believers in Christ were/are the NEW ISRAEL and they are the ones that inherit the promises … not of a kingdom here on earth, etc. … but a kingdom in heaven.

THE LORD AND THE APOSTLES MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE BELIEVING JEWS AND BELIEVING GENTILES WERE/ARE BEING MERGED INTO ONE BODY.

The Old Testament Jews mentioned in the prophets and elsewhere, will not receive their inheritance or promises UNLESS they become believers in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as their Lord and Savior.

BY THE WAY, IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION THERE IS NO HINT OF THE JEWS HAVING BEEN RESTORED TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. YES, SOME FROM EACH TRIBE ARE SEALED, BUT THERE IS NO HINT OF THE HEBREWS BEING RESTORED TO THEIR OWN LAND ANYWHERE IN REVELATION. THE TWO WITNESSES? THERE IS A DISPUTE AS TO IF THEY ARE LITERAL OR SOMETHING ELSE. ALSO, I DON’T SEE THE MENTION OF A JEWISH THIRD TEMPLE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION EITHER.

OP - i've studied pre and post trib rapture for 10 year, and have 'flip-flopped' back and forth a number of time, in my beliefs about when it will occur. after a huge amount of study, i have concluded that a pre-trib rapture is the ONLY possible way it can happen according to scripture.

question for you: do you think the rapture occurs before, or after, the revelation of the antichrist?

Holy Laughter, GodDrunk

Just by your name i bet you go to one of these crazy churches



Whats funny is you come in GLP with the name "goddrunk" of all names and then shove your BS fake rapture crap in here and probably are fooling dozens if not hundreds of poor souls that are gonna be in for a REAL shocker when you, me and the rest of us are here to endure the tribulations...

No ..we wont get beamed out of here like star trek..you simply blinded by satan like the multitude and you will one day be accounted for the many people you taught your false religion too.

I'll pray for you bro..seriously..get a grip bro and get away from what ever church you go to. Heck..i cant even find a church around here that speaks the truth. They are all mega churches out to gain popularity and fame or some wacko church that holds snakes, laugh in the holy spirit or claim they are god drunk and act a fool.. "god drunk" wow...

All this time and energy wasted on debating whether you'll "escape" the "tribulation"....tsk, tsk! I think your time could be better spent "focusing" on the certainties spoken of by Jesus, and what "HE" wants you to do...LOVE GOD, and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, AS YOURSELF!

By the time the "END" comes, I'm sure the exact timing and details WON'T MATTER to a "true believer"....if you focus on the "LOVE", everything else will work out!

There's NO reward for deciphering a concept that isn't even mentioned in the BIBLE, by name..."RAPTURE". Don't you think such an thing would be more OBVIOUS, if it were so RELEVANT?

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:15 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

All these pages of complex thoughts and theories are VERY confusing, and NOT of God! Reminds me of a "pack of Pharisees"....not the simplicity and innocence of CHILDREN!

WE ALL NEED THE HEAT OF TRIBULATION TO PURIFY OUR GARMENTS...I don't know ANY MAN ALIVE that doesn't!

Grow a pair of wings already OP. 2011 is your next bet, right?

I don't know about your studying habits, but if you did any IN-DEPTH STUDYING I think you would have walked away from pre-trib and the whole scenerio of a second chance and so forth.

Probabaly..then we can add them to the FAIL list..AGAIN.

Stupid selfish FUCKS.

Thread: PAST RAPTURE FAILURS FROM THE OH SO CERTAIN RAPTURE TARDS

Thread: THE ANNUAL 2010 RAPTURE "FAIL" Awards..the WINNER is....

Thread: ITS THE 11th IN ISRAEL..THE RAPTURE ANY MOMENT NOW..any moment..now..almost..sort of..now..please??

CHRISTIANITY THESE DAYS IS........
Quote

..... all SELF SELF SELF..like the PRE TRIB RAPTURE TARDS that were so vocal only last week.

All that lot want to do is save their OWN asses and FUCK evrybody else.

Selfish egocentric FUCKS..like MOST christians..

MOst of them are the exact OPPOSSITE of Jesus.

Bunch of lying hypocritical cruel heartless COWARDS.

Its no wonder NO one is getting saved.

It seems if you become a "Christian" these days you end up even MORE evil than you were before..MORE focussed on SELF..which is what SATAN is all about is he NOT??

So called "Christians" today worship SATAN by their ACTIONS..their utter SELFISHNESS. NO love..NO care or concern for anyone else except themselves.

When I was into this Pentecostal movement thing, I just adored Kenneth Hagin. I never knew what to think of services like in the video ... I mean I don't remember any Holy Ghost laughter amongst the apostles. Do any of you? They were always so serious, including Jesus.

At the time the Holy Ghost laughter was showing up in these services, I heard that gold dust was also being found during the services. What does that mean? I have no idea!

Anyway, I still love these Pentecostal people ... but I think they are very wrong in some of their teachings.

P.S. When you watch the video with Kenneth Hagin, you also find yourself laughing ... probably because you can't believe what you are seeing.

This post explains them WELL dont you think???

CHRISTIANITY THESE DAYS IS........
Quote

..... all SELF SELF SELF..like the PRE TRIB RAPTURE TARDS that were so vocal only last week.

All that lot want to do is save their OWN asses and FUCK evrybody else.

Selfish egocentric FUCKS..like MOST christians..

MOst of them are the exact OPPOSSITE of Jesus.

Bunch of lying hypocritical cruel heartless COWARDS.

Its no wonder NO one is getting saved.

It seems if you become a "Christian" these days you end up even MORE evil than you were before..MORE focussed on SELF..which is what SATAN is all about is he NOT??

So called "Christians" today worship SATAN by their ACTIONS..their utter SELFISHNESS. NO love..NO care or concern for anyone else except themselves.

Here are some scriptures for you.....


....Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.

BEYOND DOUBT!..unless you think Paul and Jesus were both habitual LIARS.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture

#1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and

#2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

(side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN) (Meanining AFTER that..or the NEXT thing to happen) he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation.

We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns.

We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point.

Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then (MEANING JUST AFTER THESE SIGNS)he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

In other words..there wont be a GREATER time of trouble than this EVER AGAIN..nor HAS there been a GREATER time of trouble BEFORE it..so it an ONLY be referring to THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation.

However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)

17 Then (ONCE AGAIN MEANING JUST AFTER IR THE NEXT THING TO TAKE PLACE)we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture used later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight?

In any case it certainly sells movies and books and makes millions for the false teachers to build their mansions with while the rest of the world STARVES!


1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happened, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming.

From the bible ITSELF..you just CANT get any CLEARER than that. But the pre trib liars steer you away from these verses..and for good reason..it would mean they could not make as much money from their LIES and TWISTING of the SCRIPTURES!

There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming.

If there IS one id like to see it???,,,but its JUST NOT THERE IS IT???...NO!

As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming.

We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured.

So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.　
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The falling away IS happenning NOW with all the PRE TRIB GARBAGE and EASY LISTENING SELF PLEASING GOSPEL of the MODERN CHURCHES.

The Antichrist HAS to show up LONG before the Lord returns...and BEFORE there is ANY rapture....its as plain as day in the next scripture...unless you either IGNORE it...or TWIST it or BOTH and that is EXACLTY what the pre trib liars DO and make MILLIONS from it that COULD have gone to feed the poor instead of building their mansions.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''.

Also in verse 3 Paul writes that "that day" could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed.

Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth.

So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before.

This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!.


Its as clear as a BELL


Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day.

These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart.

They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming.

When shall we be like him?

When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture.

So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.　

I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

And only those who have believed the LIES will fall for the great delusion of the end days..the PRE TRIB RAPTURE which goes HAND IN HAND with the EASY LIVING CROSSLESS PAINLESS WATERED DOWN MONEY MAKING GOSPEL OF UTTER GARBAGE being PREACHED TODAY.

CASE CLOSED.

There is no "Tribulation Period" defined in Scripture or "Great Tribulation Period"

They are man-made expressions and have been added to Scripture.

You should not use these phrases or assign 3.5/7.0 years to them when you come across verses containing the word(s):

tribulation
great tribulation


The 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm just before God's wrath.....namely the 7th Seal. They are not sealed prior to the 1st Seal because that is not God's wrath.

A great multitude shows up in heaven from all the nations just prior to the 7th Seal. This is the "rapture."


The title of this thread includes "Pretribulation Rapture".......but there is no 7 year Trbulation Period in Scripture to begin with.


All you have is Daniel's 70th week. The 70 weeks prophecy was given by God as an answer to Daniel's prayer for his people Israel.....namely how long the punishment would last.....and how long God would hide His face from them. The last week is the final seven years of punishment. Then God will put His Spirit inside them. This after occurs after the Messiah returns.

Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Dan 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

1260 days EQUALS three and a half years!

HOLY SMOKES!

Is the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-millennialism, etc.) based on the Conspiracy return of the Jews to Israel?

I came across this information by accident. I had always known about bits and pieces of the information, but never saw it presented in its totality. I imagine there is even more than what is written here. Since this is copyright material, I am only putting down the link.

I’m suggesting that you read this article’s last paragraph first and then start at the beginning.

IF THIS IS ALL TRUE, why the Conspiracy? Is it to bring down the Church? Is it for the Zionists to rule the world? Is it Satanic in its origin?

I find it interesting that the Orthodox Jews strongly objected to Zionism.

[link to reformed-theology.org]

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this reason GOD will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, do you think the aforementioned Conspiracy is the big lie?

Whoops! It looks like I stirred up the Anton Lavey folks again.

Agree with the above. The anti-christ shall persecute the saints for a period of time. But God will cut this time short.....otherwise no flesh would be saved. Then God's wrath will begin. The sealing and the "rapture" occur just prior to God's wrath (7th Seal).

There are no "tribulation saints" as after the anti-christ comes on the scene God will send a strong delusion upon the world......so that those not already in Christ will believe the lie of the evil one. This will be similar to how God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Re. Rev. 12......the woman is Israel. God will preserve a remnant of Jews in the wilderness and defend His promise to Abraham (Gen 22).

The "offspring" are the Gentile Christians who have been grafted into the natural branch. See Romans. The anti-christ will go after them after He is done going after Israel.

Hey GODDRUNK..CAN you adress this point by point?

I have noticed you only say what you want to say..and you only hear what you WANT to hear..and so far anything that dares to disagree with YOUR view is totally overlooked.

Is this just ignorance or is this your showing to the world how biased you are REAGRDLESS of the evidence in your OWN bible???

WE shall see by HOW you reply to this..and if you brush it off with some silly remark or ignore it totally..we will know you did not even CONSIDER it;;;let alone read it.

I challenge you to READ this below..and ADDRESS it..and DEBUNK it if you can with SOLID scripture..not CONJECTURE and CRAP about jewish wedding ceremonies and crap..JUST pure SCRIPTURE..as this post BELOW USES....

None of this is evidence of a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

Were Daniels 3 friends spared from the fiery furnace?????

They were thrown in the furnace... but the fire did not harm them... That is how it will be at the last trump...

Psalm 91... 1,000 shall fall at thy left and 10,000 at thy right... but it shall not come nigh thee...

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... He never "raptured" anyone in previous instances in the Bible... He PROTECTED THEM! He's not just going to change it up at the end. There is no Biblical evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

I can fully dispute every one of those scriptures.

Maybe this is why I didn't fall down ... don't laugh too loudly, please.

Briefly, I have a funny story to tell. Some years back when I was very interested in the Pentecostal movement, I attended one of these Pentecostal Prayer services with some of my neighbors. During the service the believers would go row by row up to the platform where the pastor and assistant pastor would pray for each one. As the pastor prayed for each one, he would touch their forehead and the person would fall backwards. Yes, someone was there to catch them as they fell towards the floor.

So, I'm sitting there watching all of this and never had experienced such a thing in my whole life. I thought is the pastor giving them a gentle shove and that's why they are falling? When you fall like that it's called being "slain in the spirit," I believe. This had nothing to do with laughter as in the previous video. This was serious business! People just fell down and stayed there praying.

Well, our row (last one) went up there and my neighbors were on each side of me. The one to my left went down and then I was next. The pastor prayed for me, knocked me a good one on the forehead but ... I DIDN'T GO DOWN. The neighbor on the other side of me went down. The whole row went down. The pastor came back twice and ... I STILL DIDN'T GO DOWN!

There were well over a hundred people in that room all down on the floor ... EXCEPT FOR YOURS TRULY. This good Lutheran was still standing!

I was really ANNOYED. On the way out and for several days afterward, I was really giving it to the Holy Spirit for embarrassing me. There I was and I truly loved the Lord with all my heart, but I didn't go down. I mean every once in a while I think about this and get angry all over again.

Today, when I came across the article I just posted ... a lightbulb went on in my brain. I guess the Holy Spirit was saying to me that I should get out of that prayer service and go down to the church where I belonged ... that some of the teaching of these Pentecostal people was incorrect. I guess the Holy Spirit was not going to let me fall and get further involved.

So who or what was making the people fall down? Was there another spirit in that service? Probably,so. The Holy Spirit doesn't teach a conspiracy return of the Jews to Israel, pre-trib rapture, a second chance, a third Jewish temple with sacrifices or a 1000 yr. millennium with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem,etc.

CHRISTIAN ZIONISM

[link to www.informationclearinghouse.info]
(Parts 1-5 are very good)

“Briefly stated, Christian Zionism is a movement within Protestant fundamentalism that sees the modern state of Israel as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and thus deserving of political, financial and religious support.

Christian Zionists work closely with the Israeli government, religious and secular Jewish Zionist organizations, and are particularly empowered during periods when the more conservative Likud Party is in control of the Knesset. Both the secular and religious media place Christian Zionism in the Protestant evangelical movement, which claims upward of 100-125 million members in the US. However, one would more accurately categorize it as part of the fundamentalist wing of Protestant Christianity, since the evangelical movement is far larger and more diverse in its theology and historical development.

Christian Zionism grew out of a particular theological system called “premillennial dispensationalism,” which emerged during the early 19th century in England, when there was an outpouring of millennial doctrines. The preaching and writings of a renegade Irish clergyman, John Nelson Darby, and a Scotsman, Edward Irving, emphasized the literal and future fulfillment of such Biblical teachings as “the rapture,” the rise of the Antichrist, the Battle of Armageddon and the central role that a revived nation-state of Israel would play during the latter days.

Premillennialism is a type of Christian theology as old as Christianity itself. It has its roots in Jewish apocalyptic thought and generally holds that Jesus will return to earth before he establishes, literally, a millennial kingdom under his sovereignty. Darby added the distinctive elements of the rapture (or removal to heaven) of true, born-again Christians prior to Jesus’ return, and interpreted all major prophetic texts as having predictive value. He also marked world history according to certain periods called “dispensations,” that served to guide believers in how they should conduct themselves. The fulfillment of prophetic signs became the central task of Christian interpretation.

Darby’s ideas became a central feature in the teachings of many of the great preachers of the 1880-1900 period, including evangelists Dwight L. Moody and Billy Sunday, the major Presbyterian preacher James Brooks, Philadelphia radio preacher Harry B. Ironsides, and Cyrus I. Scofield. When Scofield applied Darby’s eschatology to the Bible, the result was a superimposed outline of premillennial dispensationalist notations on the Biblical text, known as the Scofield Bible. Gradually, the Scofield Bible became the only version used by most evangelical and fundamentalist Christians for the next 95 years.”


WHO IS CYRUS I. SCOFIELD OF THE SCOFIELD BIBLE FAME? If all of this is true, people should be running away from this version of the Bible.
[link to www.overlordsofchaos.com]

God Drunk, don't you think it's time to come clean and tell everyone that the pretribulation rapture is a big part of premillennialism and Christian Zionism?

Don't you think it's about time to tell everyone what that's all about? I've been trying to do that here, but amazingly you don't want to talk.

If the Jews had not returned to Israel, there wouldn't be a pretribulation rapture. Right? In the scheme of things the Jewish people must be back in Israel. Right?

YOU BET IT'S A SCHEME! ... And, you need to start talking.