Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,130 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 1,110,409
Pageviews Today: 1,943,820Threads Today: 753Posts Today: 14,922
09:06 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 815021
United States
11/10/2009 10:56 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
[i]Legendary Lost Persian Army Found in Sahara
Monday, November 09, 2009

Alfredo and Angelo Castiglioni

Hundreds of bleached bones and skulls found in the desolate wilderness of the Sahara desert may be the remains of the long lost Cambyses' army
Herodotus wrote of a 50,000-man strong army that set out on foot into the Egyptian desert in 525 B.C. and was never heard from again ... until today.

A pair of Italian archaeologists have uncovered bronze weapons, a silver bracelet, an earring and hundreds of human bones in the vast desolate wilderness of the Sahara desert. Twin brothers Angelo and Alfredo Castiglioni are hopeful that they've finally found the lost army of Persian King Cambyses II.

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Cambyses II and his armies were buried by a cataclysmic sandstorm in 525 B.C. He wrote, "a wind arose from the south, strong and deadly, bringing with it vast columns of whirling sand, which entirely covered up the troops and caused them wholly to disappear."

Now the discovery of these artifacts points towards an answer to this millennias-old mystery: The Castiglioni brothers studied ancient maps and came to the conclusion that Cambyses' army did not take the caravan route most archaeologists believe they used.

"Since the 19th century, many archaeologists and explorers have searched for the lost army along that route. They found nothing. We hypothesized a different itinerary, coming from south," Castiglioni said.

"In the desolate wilderness of the desert, we have found the most precise location where the tragedy occurred," said Dario Del Bufalo, a member of the expedition from the University of Lecce.


For more details about the find, see the full story on DiscoveryNews. [link to news.discovery.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 772159
Canada
11/10/2009 11:22 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
That's wild, I hope we hear more about this, cool story. Thanks for posting! I always wonder what is under the sands of the Sahara desert, there are supposed to be ancient cities there from when the climate was different.
.j.
User ID: 815042
United States
11/10/2009 11:24 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
I saw that last night. The photos were excellent.

I thought the whole idea was fascinating.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 815021
United States
11/10/2009 11:32 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
I thought this was pretty cool too. If you click on the Discovery News link, their article has much more information.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 772159
Canada
11/10/2009 11:33 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
The video at the link above is cool. Seems like Italians should make natural archaeologists?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 365611
United Kingdom
11/10/2009 11:34 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Great story, OP. It's almost like something out of The Mummy. :)
9teen.47™

User ID: 815059
United Kingdom
11/10/2009 11:42 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
kitty Kool.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman].
STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 815021
United States
11/10/2009 11:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
50,000 men going to war, and for 2,500 years they are lost and only stories are told about them. What an awesome concept!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 802124
United States
11/10/2009 11:56 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Very cool.

Makes me wonder how Herodotus knew their demise if no one ever heard from them again. Perhaps he guessed?

Things do get preserved well under the hot, dry, desert sand. I wonder what other discovered lay under the sand.
Soup du Jour
User ID: 799421
United States
11/10/2009 11:57 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Great post. There are some truths in History!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 801158
United States
11/10/2009 12:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
VFC, OP!

(very F-ing cool)

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 815021
United States
11/10/2009 12:12 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
From Wiki:

The Lost Army of Cambyses

According to Herodotus, Cambyses sent an army to threaten the Oracle of Amun at the Siwa Oasis. The army of 50,000 men was halfway across the desert when a massive sandstorm sprang up, burying them all. Although many egyptologists regard the story as a myth, people have searched for the remains of the soldiers for many years. These have included Count László Almásy (on whom the novel The English Patient was based) and modern geologist Tom Brown. Some believe that in recent petroleum excavations, the remains may have been uncovered.[9]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 815021
United States
11/10/2009 12:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
I know its a long read, but here is the army's story:

[link to touregypt.net]


In 525 BC the Persian emperor Cambyses II, son of Cyrus the Great, who had already named his son as king of Babylon though Cambyses II resigned that position after only one year, invaded Egypt and successfully overthrew the native Egyptian pharaoh, Psamtek III, last ruler of Egypt's 26th Dynasty to become the first ruler of Egypt's 27th Persian Dynasty. His father had earlier attempted an invasion of Egypt against Psamtek III's predecessor, Amasis, but Cyrus' death in 529 BC put a halt to that expedition.
After capturing Egypt, Cambyses took the Throne name Mesut-i-re (Mesuti-Ra), meaning "Offspring of Re". Though the Persians would rule Egypt for the next 193 years until Alexander the Great defeated Darius III and conquered Egypt in 332 BC, Cambyses II's victory would bring to an end (for the most part) Egyptians truly ruling Egyptians until the mid 20th century, when Egypt finally shrugged off colonial rule.

We know very little about Cambyses II through contemporary texts, but his reputation as a mad tyrannical despot has come down to us in the writings of the Greek historian Herodotus (440 BC) and a Jewish document from 407 BC known as 'The Demotic Chronicle' which speaks of the Persian king destroying all the temples of the Egyptian gods. However, it must be repeatedly noted that the Greeks shared no love for the Persians. Herodotus informs us that Cambyses II was a monster of cruelty and impiety.

Herodotus gives us three tales as to why the Persians invaded Egypt. In one, Cambyses II had requested an Egyptian princess for a wife, or actually a concubine, and was angered when he found that he had been sent a lady of second rate standing. In another, it turns out that he was the bastard son of Nitetis, daughter of the Saite (from Sais) king Apries, and therefore half Egyptian anyway, whereas the third story provides that Cambyses II, at the age of ten, made a promise to his mother (who is now Cassandane) that he would "turn Egypt upside down" to avenge a slight paid to her. However, Ctesias of Cnidus states that his mother was Amytis, the daughter of the last king of independent Media so we are really unsure of that side of his parentage. While even Herodotus doubts all of these stories, and given the fact that his father had already planned one invasion of Egypt, the stories do in fact reflect the later Greek bias towards his Persian dynasty.

Regardless of Cambyses II's reason for his invasion of Egypt, Herodotus notes how the Persians easily entered Egypt across the desert. They were advised by the defecting mercenary general, Phanes of Halicarnassus, to employ the Bedouins as guides. However, Phanes had left his two sons in Egypt. We are told that for his treachery, as the armies of the Persians and the mercenary army of the Egyptians met, his sons were bought out in front of the Egyptian army where they could be seen by their father, and there throats were slit over a large bowl. Afterwards, Herodotus tells us that water and wine were added to the contents of the bowl and drunk by every man in the Egyptian force.

This did not stop the ensuing battle at Pelusium, Greek pelos, which was the gateway to Egypt. Its location on Egypt's eastern boundary, meant that it was an important trading post was well and also of immense strategic importance. It was the starting point for Egyptian expeditions to Asia and an entry point for foreign invaders.

Here, the Egyptian forces were routed in the battle and fled back to Memphis. Apparently Psamtek III managed to escape the ensuing besiege of the Egyptian capital, only to be captured a short time afterwards and was carried off to Susa in chains. Herodotus goes on to tell us of all the outrages that Cambyses II then inflicted on the Egyptians, not only including the stabbing of a sacred Apis bull and his subsequent burial at the Serapeum in Saqqara, but also the desecration and deliberate burning of the embalmed body of Amasis (a story that has been partly evidenced by destruction of some of Amasis' inscriptions) and the banishment of other Egyptian opponents.

The story of Cambyses II's fit of jealousy towards the Apis bull, whether true or simply Greek propaganda, was intended to reflect his personal failures as a monarch and military leader. In the three short years of his rule over Egypt he personally led a disastrous campaign up the River Nile into Ethiopia. There, we are told, his ill-prepared mercenary army was so meagerly supplied with food that they were forced to eat the flesh of their own colleagues as their supplies ran out in the Nubian desert. The Persian army returned northwards in abject humiliation having failed even to encounter their enemy in battle.

Then, of course, there is also the mystery of his lost army, some fifty thousand strong, that vanished in the Western Desert on their way to the Siwa Oasis along with all their weapons and other equipment, never to be heard of again. Cambyses II had also planned a military campaign against Carthage, but this too was aborted because, on this occasion, the king's Phoenician sea captains refused to attack their kinfolk who had founded the Carthagian colony towards the end of the 8th century BC. In fact, the conquest of Egypt was Cambyses' only spectacular military success in his seven years of troubled rule over the Persian empire.

However, we are told that when the Persians at home received news of Cambyses' several military disasters, some of the most influential nobles revolted, swearing allegiance to the king's younger brother Bardiya. With their support, the pretender to the great throne of Cyrus seized power in July 522 BC as Cambyses II was returning home.

The story is told that, on hearing of this revolt, and in haste to mount his horse to swiftly finish the journey home, Cambyses II managed to stab himself in the thigh with his own dagger. At that moment, he began to recall an Egyptian prophecy told to him by the priests of Buto in which it was predicted that the king would die in Ecbatana. Cambyses II had thought that the Persian summer capital of Ecbatana had been meant and that he would therefore die in old age. But now he realized that the prophecy had been fulfilled in a very different way here in Syrian Ecbatana.

Still enveloped in his dark and disturbed mood, Cambyses II decided that his fate had been sealed and simply lay down to await his end. The wound soon became gangrenous and the king died in early August of 522 BC. However, it should be noted that other references tell us that Cambyses II had his brother murdered even prior to his expedition to Egypt, but apparently if it was not Bardiya (though there is speculation that Cambyses II's servants perhaps did not kill his brother as ordered), there seems to have definitely been an usurper to the throne, perhaps claiming to be his brother, who we are told was killed secretly.

The Real Cambyses II

Modern Egyptologists believe that many of these accounts are rather biased, and that Cambyses II's rule was perhaps not nearly so traumatic as Herodotus, who wrote his history only about 75 years after Cambyses II's demise, would have us believe. In reality, the Saite dynasty had all but completely collapsed, and it is likely that with Psamtek III's (Psammetichus III) capture by the Persians, Cambyses II simply took charge of the country. The Egyptians were particularly isolated at this time in their history, having seen there Greek allies defect, including not only Phanes, but Polycrates of Samos. In addition, many of Egypt's minorities, such as the Jewish community at Elephantine and even certain elements within the Egyptian aristocracy, seem to have even welcomed Cambyses II's rule.

Right: A depiction of Cambyses II worshipping the Apris Bull

The Egyptian evidence that we do have depicts a ruler anxious to avoid offending Egyptian susceptibilities who at least presented himself as an Egyptian king in all respects. It is even possible that the pillaging of Egyptian towns told to us by Greek sources never occurred at all. In an inscription on the statue of Udjadhorresnet, a Saite priest and doctor, as well as a former naval officer, we learn that Cambyses II was prepared to work with and promote native Egyptians to assist in government, and that he showed at least some respect for Egyptian religion. For example, regardless of the death of the Apris Bull, it should be noted that the animal's burial was held with proper pomp, ceremony and respect. Udjahorresnet also tells us that:

"I let His Majesty know the greatness of Sais, that it is the seat of Neith-the-Great, mother who bore Re and inaugurated birth when birth had not yet been...I made a petition to the majesty of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Cambyses, about all the foreigners who dwelled in the temple of Neith, in order to have them expelled from it., so as to let the temple of Neith be in all its splendor, as it had been before. His Majesty commanded to expel all the foreigners who dwelled in the temple of Neith, to demolish all their houses and all their unclean things that were in the temple.

When they had carried all their personal belongings outside the wall of the temple, His Majesty commanded to cleanse the temple of Neith and to return all its personnel to it...and the hour-priests of the temple. His Majesty commanded to give divine offerings to Neith-the-Great, the mother of god, and to the great gods of Sais, as it had been before. His Majesty knew the greatness of Sais, that it is a city of all the gods, who dwell there on their seats forever."

Indeed, Cambyses II continued Egyptian policy regarding sanctuaries and national cults, confirmed by his building work in the Wadi Hammamat and at a few other Egyptian temples.

Left: The statue recording the autobiography of Udjadhorresnet

Udjadhorresnet goes on to say in his autobiography written on a naophorous statue now in the Vatican collection at Rome, that he introduced Cambyses II to Egyptian culture so that he might take on the appearance of a traditional Egyptian Pharaoh.

However, even though Cambyses II had his name written in a kingly Egyptian cartouche, he did remained very Persian, and was buried at Takht-i-Rustam near Persepolis (Iran). It has been suggested that Cambyses II may have originally followed a traditional Persian policy of reconciliation in the footsteps of their conquests. In deed, it may be that Cambyses II's rule began well enough, but with the his defeats and losses, his mood may very well have turned darker with time, along with his actions.

We do know that there was a short lived revolt which broke out in Egypt after Cambyses II died in 522 BC, but the independence was lost almost immediately to his successor, a distant relative and an officer in Cambyses II's army, named Darius. The dynasty of Persian rulers who then ruled Egypt did so as absentee landlords from afar.


The unfinished tomb of Cambyses II in Iran

The Lost Army of Cambyses II

Within recent years all manner of artifacts and monuments have been discovered in Egypt's Western Desert. Here and there, new discoveries of temples and tombs turn up, even in relatively inhabited areas where more modern structures are often difficult to distinguish from ancient ruins. It is a place where the shifting sands can uncover whole new archaeological worlds, and so vast that no more than very small regions are ever investigated systematically by Egyptologists. In fact, most discoveries if not almost all are made by accident, so Egypt antiquity officials must remain ever alert to those who bring them an inscribed stone unearthed beneath a house, or a textile fragment found in the sand.

Lately, there has been considerable petroleum excavation in the Western Desert. Anyone traveling the main route between the near oasis will see this activity, but the exploration for oil stretched much deeper into the Western Desert. It is not surprising that they have come upon a few archaeological finds, and it is not unlikely that they will come across others. Very recently, when a geological team from the Helwan University geologists found themselves walking through dunes littered with fragments of textiles, daggers, arrow-heads, and the bleached bones of the men to whom all these trappings belonged, they reported the discovery to the antiquity service.

Mohammed al-Saghir of the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) now believes that this accidental find may very well be at least remnants of the mysterious Lost Army of Cambyses II, and he is now organizing a mission to investigate the site more thoroughly. If he is successful and the discovery is that of Cambyses II's 50,000 strong lost army, than it will not only answer some ancient mysteries, but will probably also provide us with a rich source of information on the Persian military of that time, and maybe even expand our knowledge of Cambyses II himself. The Persian armed forces consisted of many elements, including companies of foreign mercenaries such as Greeks, Phoenicians, Carians, Cilicians, Medes and Syrians. Hence, if this is not another false lead, we may expect excellent preservation of helmets, leather corselets, cloth garments, spears, bows, swords and daggers – a veritable treasure trove of military memorabilia. The rations and support equipment will all be there, ready for detailed analysis.

However, it should be noted that some Egyptologists question the very existence of such an army, rather believing that the whole affair was simply a fable told by a very prejudiced Greek.

Yet if true, Cambyses II probably sent his army to Siwa Oasis in the Western Desert to seek (or seize) legitimization of his rule from the oracle of Amun, much as Alexander the Great would do in the 4th century BC. However, the army was overtaken by a sandstorm and buried. For centuries adventurers and archaeologists have tried to find the lost army, and at times, tantalizing, though usually false glues have been discovered.

Legitimizing his rule does not fully explain the need for taking such a large army to the Siwa Oasis. Accounts and other resources provide that the priests of the oracle were perhaps posing a danger to Cambyses II's rule, probably encouraging revolt among the native Egyptians. Perhaps the priests felt slighted that Cambyses II had not immediately sought their approval as Alexander the Great would do almost upon his arrival in Egypt. Therefore, it is likely that Cambyses II intended to forces their legitimization of his rule. In fact, some sources believe that his intent was to simply destroy the Oasis completely for their treachery, while it is also know that the army was to continue on after Siwa in order to attack the Libyans.

Yet the Siwa Oasis, the western most of Egypt's Oasis, is much deeper into the desert than others, such as Bahariya, and apparently, like many of Cambyses II's military operations, this one too was ill conceived. Why he so easily entered Egypt with the help of the Bedouins, and than sent such a large force into the desert only to be lost is a mystery.

We know that the army was dispatched from the holy city of Thebes, supported by a great train of pack animals. After a seven day march, it reached the Kharga Oasis and moved on to the last of the near Oasis, the Bahariya, before turning towards the 325 kilometers of desert that separated it from the Siwa Oasis. It would have been a 30 day march through burning heat with no additional sources of water or shade.

According to Herodotus (as later reported to him by the inhabitants of Siwa), after many days of struggle through the soft sand, the troops were resting one morning when calamity struck without warning. "As they were at their breakfast, a wind arose from the south, strong and deadly, bringing with it vast columns of whirling sand, which buried the troops and caused them utterly to disappear." Overwhelmed by the powerful sandstorm, men and animals alike were asphyxiated as they huddled together, gradually being enveloped in a sea of drift-sand.

It was after learning of the loss of his army that, having witnessed the reverence with which the Egyptians regarded the sacred Apis bull of Memphis in a ceremony and believing he was being mocked, he fell into a rage, drew his dagger and plunged it into the bull-calf. However, it seems that he must have latter regretted this action, for the Bull was buried with due reverence.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 815042
United States
11/10/2009 01:10 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
50,000 soldiers.

I can't comprehend numbers like that.

How many football fields would it take to hold 50,000 men standing side by side?

Or how long a line would 50,000 soldiers make, walking 10 side by side?


That's a huge numbers of people, not including animals and supplies.

The space they occupied would have been massive.

Maybe some survived the storm and returned to tell about it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 813804
Canada
11/10/2009 01:12 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
THIS IS SPARTTTA!!!
Luminous

User ID: 296954
United States
11/10/2009 01:14 PM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Very cool. Makes me think of Xerxes, the God King in 300...a little before his time, though.

[link to z.about.com]
MP
User ID: 358376
United States
11/10/2009 01:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
That's wild, I hope we hear more about this, cool story. Thanks for posting! I always wonder what is under the sands of the Sahara desert, there are supposed to be ancient cities there from when the climate was different.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 772159



+1
Nothing Is True

User ID: 804077
United Kingdom
11/10/2009 01:27 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
'The father of lies'? I think not!

Herodotus rocks!

hf
Everything is permitted..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 456756
United States
11/10/2009 02:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 815177
United States
11/10/2009 02:32 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
bump
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 815832
India
11/11/2009 09:38 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
horsepoop
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 816709
India
11/12/2009 10:25 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
horsepoop
 Quoting: Sickscent
GraftedPromise
User ID: 814965
United States
11/12/2009 10:30 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
.
... and what other histories are hidden in the sands? ...
.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 633364
Canada
11/12/2009 10:51 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
Very cool.

Makes me wonder how Herodotus knew their demise if no one ever heard from them again. Perhaps he guessed?

Things do get preserved well under the hot, dry, desert sand. I wonder what other discovered lay under the sand.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802124



legends would have arose from the last cities to see them off and from official historians (if the civilization had writing). herodotus was a traveller, and he might have tried to go to those cities where legends arose to seek out witnesses first hand. back in those days, socities and governments communicated history, myth and politics through travelling minstrals and bards who would sing or recite stories and decrees to the illiterate populace.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 816154
United States
11/12/2009 10:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
.
... and what other histories are hidden in the sands? ...
.
 Quoting: GraftedPromise 814965


That's it. There's nothing else under there. hiding
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 779573
United States
11/12/2009 11:16 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
those bones look too new.

I think this is a coverup of a large genocide or war crime.

likely from the last decade.

remember the museums in iraq were raided a while back?

the jewelry could have been planted there. a few sand storms later, and it's pretty hard to determine without major testing being done.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 816709
India
11/12/2009 11:25 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Legendary Lost Persian Army - 50,000 Strong - Found in Sahara
those bones look too new.

I think this is a coverup of a large genocide or war crime.

likely from the last decade.

remember the museums in iraq were raided a while back?

the jewelry could have been planted there. a few sand storms later, and it's pretty hard to determine without major testing being done.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 779573

1rof1





GLP