Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,679 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 662,655
Pageviews Today: 1,179,882Threads Today: 397Posts Today: 7,045
01:31 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?

 
Pontius Pilates
User ID: 820705
United States
12/22/2009 12:22 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Either way, that is a huge flaw in the entire doctrine of the Christian church, one that can NOT simply be swept under the rug. Christians, how do you answer this, for someone who is agnostic but would like to believe?

wtf 1dunno1

The So-called "Virgin Birth"

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------
Christians have always argued for Jesus' virgin birth, but also argue he was descended from David. Nevertheless, this overlooks that if virgin born, Jesus' 'father' Joseph, albeit descended from David, would have had no connection with his conception, and his only human connection would have been through/by/with Mary; however she was of the Aaronic line (ie. she was related to Elizabeth who was of Aaronic descent - Luke l:6, l:36). As Aaron was of the tribe of Levi, but David was of Judah, then Jesus, if virgin born, could therefore not be of Davidic descent and could not therefore be the messiah which demanded Davidic descent. Furthermore, this would contradict all the New Testament statements that Jesus was a descendent of David - Matthew l:l, 12:23, 15:22, Mark l0:47, Romans l:3, Revelation 5:5.
Jesus didn't take on 'David's line' through Joseph being his 'adoptive father' as Rom l:3 makes quite clear, ie. "descended from David according to the flesh".

So there is a problem; Jesus was either of David's line - but that means he wasn't virgin born (ie. Joseph having to have been responsible for his conception), or he was virgin born, but that precludes him being of the Davidic line (because only Mary was involved in his humanity and she was not of the Davidic line) - so he couldn't have been the Messiah/Christ as the New Testament teaches.

The virgin-birth story is only found in two of the twenty-seven New Testament writings, and in Luke, the style of writing indicates the part that relates the story, was written after the following 22 chapters by a different author, and added on to the beginning of Luke afterwards. Furthermore the Catholic Jerusalem Bible admits that Matt most likely had its virgin birth story added to it also. In fact Luke conflicts sharply with Matthew, eg. (i) Luke has the birth in the time of the governor Quirinius (Luke 2:2, 3-7), whilst Matthew has it in the time of Herod, but the rule of these two never coincided or overlapped. The Christian "explanation" for this involving the Ramsay inscription regarding Quirinius as dummvir, is futile.

Both Luke and Matt have other major differences, eg. Matthew says the family fled from Judea immediately to Egypt after the birth (2:4-l4) to avoid Herod and stayed there until he was dead and even on returning, they avoided Judea in the south. However according to Luke, after the birth, the family calm went to Jerusalem in Judea and then up to Galilee (2:21-22,39). It is worthwhile noting that the only census known about (Luke has the journey to Bethlehem because of this) as one in 6 AD. Long after Herod died, and indeed long after Christians claim Jesus lived.

The only reason that Matthew's author seems to have the virgin-birth story is because he misunderstood an O.T statement (Isaiah 7:l4) that he read as messianic (which it isn't) and referring to a virgin birth (which it doesn't). With regard to Isa 7:l4, it is simply the story of Isaiah saying to king Ahaz of Judah that by the time that a young girl had conceived and her baby was born, the present threat from Syria would be over - 7:l4-17. There is NOTHING messianic about it at all.

As, in this, the child was to be called Emmanuel which means 'God with us', but the name 'Jesus' (actually, this is Greek for the Hebrew Jehoshua) means 'Yahweh is salvation', Jesus was therefore not called by the name Emmanuel and did not fulfil this 'prophesy'; however Matt's author misunderstood this. As Isa 8:3-4 says how Isaiah went immediately and impregnated his wife, and the prophesy is again made saying that before the child could even talk, Syria would by smashed by Assyria, it appears the Isa 7:l4 prophesy relates to Isaiah's own wife/child and does not have any messianic connotations.

In reality there is nothing miraculous in Isaiah's saying; he is only saying a woman (or in the Greek - a virgin) would conceive. It doesn't take too much to realise what has to happen for a virgin to conceive a child. He doesn't say that a girl who would give birth to the child would still be a virgin after conception. The author of Matthew was using the Septuagint 'LXX' - the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible compiled in the second century BC for the Greek- speaking Jews of the Diaspora - ie. living outside Palestine. It is generally accepted that some parts are very good, but in others it is faulty, eg. Daniel is such a poor translation in the LXX, the Jews wouldn't even use it.

The Hebrew word in Isa 7:l4 for the woman/'virgin' is "almah" and means NOT a virgin, but a young woman; it is in the LXX that it is rendered 'virgin' and there is the additional fact that in the Greek the root doesn't even necessarily mean a girl who has not had sex, but 'denotes fullness or the like - fully developed". The word actually used here has nothing to do with the virgin state.

As the Gospel writers used the LXX, they could not have been Palestinian Jews (ie. the apostles as stated in the Gospels) or they would have obviously used the Hebrew text and not made such errors.

Matt's author couldn't have been the apostle of that name as he wasn't a Palestinian Jew (nor either an eyewitness as he had to use Mark as a source to write his Gospel). He also makes other errors, eg. in 27: 9-l0 he says he is quoting Jeremiah but in fact he's quoting Zechariah ll:l2-l3. It is very apparent that the Gospel writers were NOT Palestinian Jews, but either Jewish Christians of the Diaspora or Gentile-Christians. In the case of Mark's author there has to be doubt whether he had even set foot in Palestine in view of the historical, chronological, geographical and theological errors he makes about first cent. Palestine.

But this is where it continues to be manifestly absurd. Jesus was supposedly a true Jew - a direct descendent of Abraham through David (Matthew 1), the Jewish Messiah, the Son of David (Matt 21:9), the 'lion of the tribe of Judah' (Rev 5:5) and yet whenever he quoted the Old Testament, according to the Gospels that is, he quoted the GREEK LXX version ! Furthermore, in some cases the Hebrew original of the LXX text he is quoting would not support the argument he is making, ie. because of the LXX's inaccuracies. In Mark 7:l-23 Jesus does this; although it would seem the LXX would support the point Jesus is making to the Pharisees, the Hebrew original in fact would not.

So we are asked to believe that Jesus - a true Hebrew Jew - chose to use the Greek translation of the Old Test. and furthermore, was unaware of the fact that he was using a passage that in reality was faulty and in the original would say something completely different, and be quite inappropriate for his argument, but according to the Gospels, he floored his orthodox Jewish opponents with this - a mistranslation of their own scriptures - and they did not challenge this ! The same applies with James (supposedly Jesus' brother and leader of the Jewish-Christian community in Jerusalem) in Acts 15 - he uses

the LXX to support his argument, although the Hebrew original says something quite different and would not support his argument, and yet all the Jews in the audience didn't comment on this !!! Obviously as the writers of the Gospels & Acts were not Palestinian Hebrew-speaking Jews, they had to use the LXX but didn't realise the errors they were making.

Therefore, the bad news is that firstly the virgin birth is disproved by the Bible itself, and secondly, there is no written eyewitness testimony for Jesus' supposed life.

The situation is adequately summed up by Professor Fuller, Professor of New Testament, Union Theological Seminary, New York. (A Critical Introduction to the New Testament):

"Of the 27 books of the New Testament only the authentic Pauline epistles are, strictly speaking, the testimony of an apostolic witness. And even Paul...was not a witness of the historical Jesus.

Since the earliest witnesses wrote nothing...there is not a single book in the New Testament which is the direct work of an eyewitness of the historical Jesus..." (page 197).
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 01:34 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Quote:
An explanation traditionally offered by Christian apologists is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. [3] Under the Lucan text, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother. Unguote

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

It was too easy. Learn use internet first.
Aztec Cavalry

User ID: 837356
Mexico
12/22/2009 01:38 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
The whole Jesus story, concept, and doctrine is fatally flawed.
Key to the ages: [link to z14.invisionfree.com]

Man must give birth to himself every day. -Gabriel García Márquez
bobnightman

User ID: 823850
United States
12/22/2009 01:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Mary was abducted by Aliens and artificially inseminated...Jesus was a Hybrid
12/21/12
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 01:44 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
The whole Jesus story, concept, and doctrine is fatally flawed.
 Quoting: Aztec Cavalry


Try this:

[link to www.wyattarchaeology.com]


Quote:
Human cells normally have 46 chromosomes. These are actually 23 pairs of homologous chromosomes. In each pair of chromosomes, one of the pair is from the mother and the other member is from the father. Therefore, 23 chromosomes come from the mother and 23 from the father. In each set of 23, 22 chromosomes are autosomal and one is sex-determining. The sex-determining ones are the X chromosome and the Y chromosome. Females are XX, so they can only contribute an X chromosome to their offspring, whereas males are XY, which allows them to contribute either an X or a Y. If they contribute an X, the child is female, whereas if they contribute a Y, the child is male. The fascinating finding in this blood was that instead of 46 chromosomes, there were only 24. There were 22 autosomal chromosomes, one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. This evidences that the person to whom this blood belonged to had a mother but no human father, because the normal contribution of paternal chromosomes is missing. Unquote
ZTE

User ID: 779511
United States
12/22/2009 01:45 PM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Hey look, another thread on this subject.

Thread: Christians: Why is Jesus' "genealogy" in the Bible?
CountryGirl

User ID: 847098
South Africa
12/22/2009 01:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Quote:
An explanation traditionally offered by Christian apologists is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. [3] Under the Lucan text, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother. Unguote

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

It was too easy. Learn use internet first.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 847113



Yes, Mary was a descendant of David and that is where Jesus' bloodline comes from.
Mary was of the Judean (king line) and the Levite (priest line) tribes.

OR is the OP one of those weird people that thinks a woman's bloodlines don't count??
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Here in America - in GOD we still trust...
Be silent! Be patient! Be quiet!
Be Still! - And know that He is God.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847103
United States
12/22/2009 01:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Sniff Sniff....

What is that awful smell? It smells like....like....

like a jew.

OP? Is that you?
Aztec Cavalry

User ID: 837356
Mexico
12/22/2009 01:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
What is flawed is the thought that a person born much before you can do your spiritual work for you, if only you obey and worship his symbols. Physical strangeness doesn't indicate someone is good.

Last Edited by True Nature's Child on 12/22/2009 01:47 PM
Key to the ages: [link to z14.invisionfree.com]

Man must give birth to himself every day. -Gabriel García Márquez
grrttsgar

User ID: 847037
United States
12/22/2009 01:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Jesus= sheep

Enough said.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847103
United States
12/22/2009 01:49 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Historical religious paintings show UFOs in the sky
when depicting Madonna and child.

Alien insemination?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847103
United States
12/22/2009 01:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Jesus= sheep

Enough said.
 Quoting: grrttsgar


Whoa!!! Get a whiff of this poster....

phew!!! jews out in record numbers today.
ZTE

User ID: 779511
United States
12/22/2009 01:51 PM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Historical religious paintings show UFOs in the sky
when depicting Madonna and child.

Alien insemination?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 847103



Historical to us today, but still probably 1500 years after the death of Jesus. Think about how much of the last 200 years history has been fabricated and twisted, then try to compare that to 1000 years or 1500 years.
mathetes

User ID: 793782
United States
12/22/2009 01:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
 Quoting: Pontius Pilates 820705

lol and Pontius Pilate never existed outside of the New Testament......at least according to critics until the 1961 discovery of the Pilate Stone in the ruins of an amphitheater at Caesarea Maritima which refers to Pilate as "Prefect of Judaea"
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 01:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
What is flawed is the thought that a person born much before you can do your spiritual work for you, if only you obey and worship his symbols. Physical strangeness doesn't indicate someone is good.
 Quoting: Aztec Cavalry


I think He´d proved it by His deeds too.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 754098
United States
12/22/2009 02:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
What is flawed is the thought that a person born much before you can do your spiritual work for you, if only you obey and worship his symbols. Physical strangeness doesn't indicate someone is good.


I think He´d proved it by His deeds too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 847113

His resurrection sealed it for me, and thousands of martyrs who embraced their deaths rather than renounce the fact.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847103
United States
12/22/2009 02:36 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Historical religious paintings show UFOs in the sky
when depicting Madonna and child.

Alien insemination?



Historical to us today, but still probably 1500 years after the death of Jesus. Think about how much of the last 200 years history has been fabricated and twisted, then try to compare that to 1000 years or 1500 years.
 Quoting: ZTE


excellent point.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 820705
United States
12/22/2009 03:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Quote:
An explanation traditionally offered by Christian apologists is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. [3] Under the Lucan text, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother. Unguote

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

It was too easy. Learn use internet first.



Yes, Mary was a descendant of David and that is where Jesus' bloodline comes from.
Mary was of the Judean (king line) and the Levite (priest line) tribes.

OR is the OP one of those weird people that thinks a woman's bloodlines don't count??
 Quoting: CountryGirl



LOL if you'd bother to have read the article

Christians have always argued for Jesus' virgin birth, but also argue he was descended from David. Nevertheless, this overlooks that if virgin born, Jesus' 'father' Joseph, albeit descended from David, would have had no connection with his conception, and his only human connection would have been through/by/with Mary; however she was of the Aaronic line (ie. she was related to Elizabeth who was of Aaronic descent - Luke l:6, l:36). As Aaron was of the tribe of Levi, but David was of Judah, then Jesus, if virgin born, could therefore not be of Davidic descent and could not therefore be the messiah which demanded Davidic descent. Furthermore, this would contradict all the New Testament statements that Jesus was a descendent of David - Matthew l:l, 12:23, 15:22, Mark l0:47, Romans l:3, Revelation 5:5.
Jesus didn't take on 'David's line' through Joseph being his 'adoptive father' as Rom l:3 makes quite clear, ie. "descended from David according to the flesh".


not one relevant reply at all. Per usual, when confronted with these issues, from the bible itself, there is only the sound of crickets. I'd like to believe there is something to the story but, unfortunately, reason and logic win out every time.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 820705
United States
12/22/2009 03:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Sniff Sniff....

What is that awful smell? It smells like....like....

like a jew.

OP? Is that you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 847103



umm....Jesus was a jew?? LOL
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 769657
United States
12/22/2009 03:19 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
These arguments are so pointless.
Sandpiper
User ID: 847215
United States
12/22/2009 04:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Mary was a virgin, and JESUS was the MESSIAH.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 805188
United States
12/22/2009 04:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Sniff Sniff....

What is that awful smell? It smells like....like....

like a jew.

OP? Is that you?



umm....Jesus was a jew?? LOL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 820705


Try native american and assyrian....
Aquarius 7

User ID: 842372
United States
12/22/2009 04:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Just dropping by to give this thread a one star vote.


:AQprayfor2:

. .
.

Cayce: “… The greater portion of Japan must go into the sea. …. then we may know it has begun …”. www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce11.html
.
"Be kind, for everyone you know is fighting a hard battle" - Plato
.
"Those who are at peace in their hearts already are in the Great Shelter of life." ~ Hopi Prophecy
.
Mickeyblue
User ID: 330969
United States
12/22/2009 04:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Mary's mother was related to Elizabeth's mother, they were sisters which made Mary and Elizabeth cousins and of the line of Aaron through the mothers, The father of Mary was not of that line, he was of the line of the King David, the king lineage. So, Mary possessed both the priest lineage and the king lineage.

Jospeh by marrying her also construed the Davidic lineage through the law.

You are silly and riduculous to think that you can assault this with no scholarship and meager effort, it has withstood the devil himself.

Jesus calls us unto Him, it is not of ourselves and I pray for all to hear Him. It is a gift, believe it or not.
Lord Ergo

User ID: 793031
United States
12/22/2009 05:01 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
As with any religion there an element of blind faith you have to accept. I am a Christian, and therefor I KNOW that Mary was a virgin and Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Is there tangible "scientific" for this? No there is not, however with faith I accept and believe it.

If you are looking to believe, then just believe. Open your heart, and confess with your tounge. Ask Jesus to come into your heart as your Lord and Savior. You will FEEL it from the moment you truely accept. The path of Christianity is not an easy one, and it's getting harder by the day. We WILL be persicuted and murdered for our beliefs. However I would rather lose my head at the hand of a Muslim than have to face the wrath of God on judgement day because I turned my back on the truth that is so apparent you have but to walk outside and look up at the night sky.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 05:24 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
In the Gospel of James, Joachim (the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus) is described as a rich and pious man of the house of David ...

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
NoiD
User ID: 732202
United Kingdom
12/22/2009 05:57 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Mary was a ho. She tried to cover it up by blaming God. Joseph wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and believed her. Then some random crazy people wrote a work of fiction to control the masses....
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 06:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Mary was a ho. She tried to cover it up by blaming God. Joseph wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and believed her. Then some random crazy people wrote a work of fiction to control the masses....
 Quoting: NoiD 732202


... in your dirty dreams probably.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 296954
United States
12/22/2009 06:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Starships and in vitro fertilization are childs play to the reptilians....2,000 years ago, 200,000 years ago = same.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 847113
Slovakia
12/22/2009 06:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
Starships and in vitro fertilization are childs play to the reptilians....2,000 years ago, 200,000 years ago = same.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 296954


You people don´t know, probably, what you do to yourselves by alike assertions and beliefs ...

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Matthew 12:32)
Lotus Feet

User ID: 776324
United Kingdom
12/22/2009 06:29 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: EITHER MARY WASN'T A VIRGIN, OR JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH: WHICH IS IT?
OP IMHV a lot was concealed and not revealed and you raise some excellent points.

1. As far as I am aware David's father Jesse owned lands in the Jezreel Valley and David did his courting there in the Galilee and on Mount Carmel. That puts the whole Judah story into question IMHV. The other strange thing is that all the children of David are named except for one, no name was given for that one.

2. Scholars state that the Galileans spoke middle Aramaic (Syriac) and they were looked down upon by the Jews in the South.

WHAT DID GALILEANS HAVE IN COMMON WITH LONDONERS?


“Josephus’s image of the Galilean as the indomitable fighter has little in common with the rabbinic portrait of the Northerner as a figure of fun, an ignoramus, if not both. One of the commonest jibes directed against the Galileans is that they did not speak correct Aramaic: U Aramaic in other words. According to a well-known anecdote preserved in the Talmud, a Galilean went to the marketplace in Jerusalem to purchase something which it called ‘amar’ The merchants ridicule him.

“You stupid Galilean, do you want something to ride on (a donkey = hamar) Or something to drink (wine=hamar) Or something for clothing (wool=amar) Or something for a sacrifice (lamb=immar). “

Now the fact that the word for donkey and wine is the same brings up further questions. Did the Jews give Rome the correct translations of the prophecies? Knowing the weakness of man probably not! LOL!

The distinction between the various gutturals almost completely disappeared in Galilean Aramaic; the weaker guttural sounds, in fact, ceased to be audible. Put differently, in careless everyday conversation the Galileans dropped their aitches. Third century AD Babylonian rabbis maintain that it was because of their slipshod speech of Galilee that Galilean doctrine disappeared.” Geza Vermes, Dead Sea Scrolls Scholar
[link to academysounds.blogspot.com]

3. The term Virgin is a biblical term for spiritual purity and the purity of the soul. We know from St Clement of Alexandria that John the Divine was also called 'John the Virgin".

4. There are two Bethlehem's one in the North and one in the South.

5. Many prophecies were attributed to Jesus just like Islam attribute many prophecies to their prophet. However, that does not make them true. The bible says nothing about Jesus Christ suffering from any diseases himself; as such the story in the NT doesn't fit the prophecies of the OT. Nor did Jesus Christ fit the timeline of many of the prophecies about the Messiah.

Did Jesus have an offspring? If he did it isn't mentioned in the NT. If he didn't he is not the one that is known as the "Righteous and Suffering Servant".

6. However, the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus Christ gives you a few clues about the bigger picture.

7. On the whole Christians are not ready yet to know to whole truth and nothing but the truth. One step at a time and critical analysis of the scriptures both inside and outside of the bible is imperative if Christians are to come to the truth.

8. Most orthodox Christians don't even investigate the history of the compilations and translations let alone investigate deeply into their own beliefs.

Lotus

Last Edited by Lotus Feet on 12/22/2009 07:58 PM
i love satan





GLP