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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"

 
GET RIGHT WITH GOD
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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is describing the "Rapture" which WILL take place as the Bible has told us.

However, it will not be like most have been taught to believe. There are many theroies about this event. However there is one truth concerning this event.

I was always preached to that the "Rapture" of the Church would happen pre-Tribulation which sounded good to me. I mean who would want it to be post trib after all. Certainly not me!

To those who will think that what I am about to share with you is from the Jehovah Witnness doctorine it is not. I do not believe in laying claim to any "Religion" But simply a follower of the way.

The "Rapture" of the church is an event that will consist of select men & women who have died in Christ & a select few that will be alive and remaining here on earth that has lived a holy a righteous life before the Lord. When the time has come & will be 12 thousand from 12 tribes of Juda totaling 144,000 saints.

Revelation 7:4-17 (King James Version)

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This will be a post tribulation event as indicated in verse 14

The 144,000 that will be "Raptured" will be the ones God the Father has selected for his return back to earth for the thousand year regin here on earth in which his government will be established & mans government will be set aside during this millenium with the 144,000 as his government officials throughout the earth.

Folks I would submitt to you to draw close to the things of the lord and to repent of the liberal christian lifestyle we (incuding myself) has been living. We will be going through this tribulation and will need to have the word of the lord in our hearts & in our lives to make it through spirtually what is soon to take place.

I would welcome feed back on this subject. Thanks
Peloria

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01/31/2010 02:51 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is describing the "Rapture" which WILL take place as the Bible has told us.

However, it will not be like most have been taught to believe. There are many theroies about this event. However there is one truth concerning this event.

I was always preached to that the "Rapture" of the Church would happen pre-Tribulation which sounded good to me. I mean who would want it to be post trib after all. Certainly not me!

To those who will think that what I am about to share with you is from the Jehovah Witnness doctorine it is not. I do not believe in laying claim to any "Religion" But simply a follower of the way.

The "Rapture" of the church is an event that will consist of select men & women who have died in Christ & a select few that will be alive and remaining here on earth that has lived a holy a righteous life before the Lord. When the time has come & will be 12 thousand from 12 tribes of Juda totaling 144,000 saints.

Revelation 7:4-17 (King James Version)

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This will be a post tribulation event as indicated in verse 14

The 144,000 that will be "Raptured" will be the ones God the Father has selected for his return back to earth for the thousand year regin here on earth in which his government will be established & mans government will be set aside during this millenium with the 144,000 as his government officials throughout the earth.

Folks I would submitt to you to draw close to the things of the lord and to repent of the liberal christian lifestyle we (incuding myself) has been living. We will be going through this tribulation and will need to have the word of the lord in our hearts & in our lives to make it through spirtually what is soon to take place.

I would welcome feed back on this subject. Thanks
 Quoting: GET RIGHT WITH GOD 796676


Bleat bleat bleat bleat
What does not destroy us, will make us stronger
DNAprototype

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01/31/2010 02:52 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Take your fear and shove it.

Copy paste tard.
IM4GOD

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01/31/2010 03:10 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
The 144,000 that will be "Raptured" will be the ones God the Father has selected for his return back to earth for the thousand year regin here on earth in which his government will be established & mans government will be set aside during this millenium with the 144,000 as his government officials throughout the earth.

Folks I would submitt to you to draw close to the things of the lord and to repent of the liberal christian lifestyle we (incuding myself) has been living. We will be going through this tribulation and will need to have the word of the lord in our hearts & in our lives to make it through spirtually what is soon to take place.

I would welcome feed back on this subject. Thanks
 Quoting: GET RIGHT WITH GOD 796676


totally wrong and yes it appears that you are in the mindset of a JW But to help clear thingss up a bit for you, the 144.000 is not the ones to be raptured but those chosen to keep the word of GOD going on the earth.If you learn to read and understand the Bible you would see that! I will quote a few passages for you to show your error

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (King James Version)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
and also the passage from John 3-16 For GOD so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not Perish but have ever lasting life
Praise GOD almighty
IM4GOD

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Take your fear and shove it.

Copy paste tard.
 Quoting: DNAprototype


What's wrong dna scared??
Praise GOD almighty
HardTruth

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01/31/2010 03:18 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 Quoting: GET RIGHT WITH GOD 796676



Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
DNAprototype

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01/31/2010 03:19 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
What's wrong dna scared??
 Quoting: IM4GOD



Scared of what? The rapture, please. Your ape subroutine has no basis in reality.

DNA
Anonymous Coward
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01/31/2010 03:20 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Here's the truth for you!!

[link to www.alliesofhumanity.org]

It is our understanding that the true Jesus will not return
to the world, for he is working in concert with the Unseen
Ones and serves humanity and other races as well. The one
who will come claiming his name will come from the Greater
Community. He will be one who is born and bred for this purpose
by the collectives that are in the world today. He will
appear human and will have significant abilities compared to
what you can accomplish at this moment. He will seem completely
altruistic. He will be able to perform acts that will
engender either fear or great reverence. He will be able to project
images of angels, demons or whatever his superiors
wish to expose you to. He will seem to have spiritual powers.
Yet he will come from the Greater Community, and he will be
part of the collective. And he will engender allegiance to follow
him. Eventually, for those who cannot follow him, he will
encourage their alienation or their destruction.
The visitors do not care how many of your people are
destroyed so long as they have a primary allegiance amongst
the majority. Therefore, the visitors will focus on those fundamental
ideas that give them this authority and influence.

A Second Coming, then, is being prepared by your visitors.
The evidence of this, we understand, is already in the
world. People do not realize the presence of the visitors or the
nature of reality in the Greater Community, and so they will
naturally accept their prior beliefs without question, feeling
that the time has come for the great return of their Savior and
their Teacher. But he who will come will not come from the
heavenly host, he will not represent Knowledge or the Unseen
Ones, and he will not represent the Creator or the Creatorís
will. We have seen this plan in formulation in the world. We
have also seen similar plans carried out in other worlds.
homemommy

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01/31/2010 03:24 PM
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Are you sure the person they are telling is coming back is Jesus?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/31/2010 03:28 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
The 144,000 that will be "Raptured" will be the ones God the Father has selected for his return back to earth for the thousand year regin here on earth in which his government will be established & mans government will be set aside during this millenium with the 144,000 as his government officials throughout the earth.

Folks I would submitt to you to draw close to the things of the lord and to repent of the liberal christian lifestyle we (incuding myself) has been living. We will be going through this tribulation and will need to have the word of the lord in our hearts & in our lives to make it through spirtually what is soon to take place.

I would welcome feed back on this subject. Thanks


totally wrong and yes it appears that you are in the mindset of a JW But to help clear thingss up a bit for you, the 144.000 is not the ones to be raptured but those chosen to keep the word of GOD going on the earth.If you learn to read and understand the Bible you would see that! I will quote a few passages for you to show your error

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (King James Version)

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
and also the passage from John 3-16 For GOD so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not Perish but have ever lasting life
 Quoting: IM4GOD

Interesting! A couple of questions though. starting with (1) Where does the the bible tell us that the 144,000 is to keep the word of god going on the earth? other than as I mentioned would return with god to establish his thosand year reign on earth? (2) Are you suggesting the Rapture is for all saved and is a pre-trib event? Thanks for your feed back.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/31/2010 03:29 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Are you sure the person they are telling is coming back is Jesus?
 Quoting: homemommy

That much I am sure of! Jesus Christ will return.
homemommy

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01/31/2010 03:30 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Are you sure the person they are telling is coming back is Jesus?

That much I am sure of! Jesus Christ will return.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676


Why did Jesus tell his disciples that they would see him return?
HardTruth

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01/31/2010 03:35 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
 Quoting: HardTruth


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!

Last Edited by HardTruth on 01/31/2010 03:35 PM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/31/2010 03:37 PM
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
Are you sure the person they are telling is coming back is Jesus?

That much I am sure of! Jesus Christ will return.


Why did Jesus tell his disciples that they would see him return?
 Quoting: homemommy

Jesus did not tell his disiples that they would see him return that I know of. I could be wrong.

This is the closest that I am aware of. And it does not say that they will see it.

Acts 1:9-11 (King James Version)

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Dread Pirate Roberts

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
the rapture is pre-tribulation. There is no doubt about it. Those who think it will be post trib or even mid-trib secretly just think they deserve to have God's wrath poured out on them. But we are not appointed to wrath. We are justified in His image.

"Who wouldn't want to escape the wrath of God?" All of us, of course. Who deserves to go through all of it? All of us of course. But His blood sanctified us and made us whole with Him, those of us who have called on His blood to be saved, that is. THOSE folks will not go thru the tribulation for even one moment. The bible is crystal clear on this.

Jack Kelley posted part one of a thorough examination of the Pre-Trib rapture from Old testament scriptures this week.

Next week will be the same, but from New Testament. But the most important reason we will not be here, as weíll see, is that God said we wonít be here. Those who teach the Churchís presence on Earth during any part of Danielís70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.


Rapture References
This Weekís Feature Article by Jack Kelley
[link to gracethrufaith.com]

Recently I was challenged to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-trib rapture. As you may know I believe Paul was the first person on Earth to present a clear pre-trib teaching, about 20 years after the cross. Before that time it was unknown because Jesus didnít teach it to His other disciples during their time together. And since the Olivet Discourse is directed at Israel, thereís no mention of it there either, even though the end times is in view. Israel will not participate in the rapture.

Now Iíll be the first to admit that doing this requires that you already have a working knowledge of the pre-trib position, because without it you wouldnít recognize some of these references as being pertinent to the subject. But ever since Paul revealed the rapture, scholars have been seeing hints of it here and there, even in the Old Testament.

Before we begin, in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 Paul explained why Godís plans for the church had been kept secret until after the crucifixion. He said that if the rulers of this age (Satan & Co.) had understood all that God intended for us they would not have crucified the Lord. Not that they could have stopped it, of course. But had they known God was going to use the murder of His Son to save us all, they wouldnít have gone ahead with it, and in fact would have tried to prevent it. It wasnít until He was on the cross that they discovered the Lordís death was going to become payment in full for all our sins, so instead of it being cause for a great celebration it totally disarmed them and made them into a public spectacle (Colossians 2:13-15). Then, 20 years later, they learned about the rapture. These were both things that God had planned from the beginning, but a good general keeps his strategy a secret in order to take his enemy by surprise, so God didnít let Satan (or anyone else) know about these things until it was too late for him to react. Even now, Satan doesnít know when the rapture is coming. All he knows is what we know, that each new believer could be the last one, the one that takes us all out of here and beyond his reach forever.

Iím convinced that Godís plan requires the Church to disappear before Danielís 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24) At the end of 69 weeks (483 years) Jesus was crucified, the clock suddenly stopped, and Israel disappeared along with its Temple and Old Covenant worship. Danielís prophecy was left incomplete and from that time on, Godís focus was on the church.

The reappearance of Israel in 1948, the promised rebuilding of a Temple, and resumption of Levitical sacrifice during the 70th week make it clear that the Church didnít end the dispensation of Law but only interrupted it seven years short of its intended duration. We would all agree that if the introduction of a dam into a stream of water interrupts its flow, then itís reasonable and logical to conclude that removal of the dam will be necessary for the flow to resume. Therefore if the introduction of the Church after the 69th week of Daniels prophecy caused the interruption in its fulfillment, itís reasonable and logical to conclude that the Church will have to be removed before the final seven years of the dispensation of Law can run their course and Danielís prophecy can be fulfilled.

Of course there are other sound reasons why the church has to disappear before the End Times begin in earnest. Not having a destiny on Earth, our presence here would serve no purpose during the time of Earthís liberation from bondage (Romans 8:19-21). Not being subject to judgment the Church has no unfinished business with God that could be concluded during the End Times. Unlike Israel we donít need to be made righteous because weíre already as righteous as God is (2 cor. 5:21).

Jeremiah 30:11 says the End time judgments will serve a two fold purpose, to completely destroy all the nations among which Israel has been scattered and to discipline Israel. Since God does not consider the Church to belong to either group our presence on Earth during that time would be irrelevant.

But the most important reason, as weíll see, is that God said we wonít be here. Those who teach the Churchís presence on Earth during any part of Danielís70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.

With that introduction, letís look at some of the clearest hints God placed in the Scriptures to show He has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Naturally, weíll begin in the Old Testament.
Enoch Disappeared

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away. (Genesis 5:24)

In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46)

But if you give the Lordís statement its widest possible application, you can see that as the time of the Great Flood drew near there were 3 kinds of people on Earth. There were the unbelievers who perished in the flood, Noah and his family who were preserved through it, and Enoch, who was taken by the Lord well before it.

Just so, as the End of the Age draws near there will still be three kinds of people on Earth. They are the unbelievers of our time who will perish in the End Times judgments, modern Israel who will be preserved through them, and the Church who will be taken by God well before they begin.

There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, ďGo and make disciples (students) of all men.Ē (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. Itís the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.
Lot Had To Leave Sodom

But flee there quickly, because I can not do anything until you reach it. (Genesis 19:23)

Abraham had struck a bargain with the Lord that if even 10 righteous people could be found in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the cities. The fact that the cities were destroyed indicates 10 righteous people could not be found there. But there was one, and though He wasnít bound to do it, the Lord instructed the angels to get Lot out of town before commencing their judgment. Peter referred to Lotís rescue from Sodom as evidence that the Lord does not judge the righteous with the wicked (2 peter 2:7-9) Lot therefore becomes a model of the Church, who with a righteousness imputed by faith, has to be removed from the time and place of judgment before it begins.
Where Was Daniel?

Daniel 3 contains one of the most popular childrenís stories of the Old Testament. Many donít realize that itís also one of the clearest models of the End Times anywhere in the Bible. King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Danielís three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon.

But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you donít know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you donít know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story itís as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.
Isaiah Said It Best

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. (Isaiah 26:19-21)

Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lordís intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It canít be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it canít be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of Godís wrath, not before it. (Daniel 12:1-2)

Some day soon a group of people will suddenly rise from the dead. Another group, still living, will be whisked away to rooms prepared for them to be hidden from the time of Godís wrath. Then the Lord will punish the people of the Earth for their sins. The fact that the groups being resurrected and hidden are not objects of his wrath is indicated by the switch from second person (resurrected and hidden) to third person (punished). Notice how similar the wording is to 1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paulís teaching on the rapture.

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

Itís appropriate to insert John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about.

In my Fatherís house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His fatherís house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)

Iím convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said ďAccording to the Lordís own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.ď (1 Thes. 4:15). I say this because with the exception of 1 Thes 4:16-17 there is no passage in all the Bible that so clearly describes the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

This is not the sum of Old Testament verses that point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But itís a good sample of the clearest ones, to help you see that God always intended to take us to be with him before He unleashes the End Times judgments upon the unbelieving Earth. Next time weíll take a similar survey of the New Testament. See you then.

Last Edited by Dread Pirate Roberts on 01/31/2010 03:39 PM
"From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
 Quoting: HardTruth

I would submitt that there were many who died before Christ came to earth that were of God and will be in that group.
HardTruth

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!

I would submitt that there were many who died before Christ came to earth that were of God and will be in that group.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676


I don't know about you, but I personally can count way beyond the trillions!!

Zillions, gazillions, I could make up many words to be symbolic of whatever number needed to be achieved!!


teeeehee

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
homemommy

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01/31/2010 03:57 PM
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Are you sure the person they are telling is coming back is Jesus?

That much I am sure of! Jesus Christ will return.


Why did Jesus tell his disciples that they would see him return?

Jesus did not tell his disiples that they would see him return that I know of. I could be wrong.

This is the closest that I am aware of. And it does not say that they will see it.

Acts 1:9-11 (King James Version)

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676

Matthew 10:23

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man comes.
homemommy

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9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!

I would submitt that there were many who died before Christ came to earth that were of God and will be in that group.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676

YES!!
Elijah

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!

I would submitt that there were many who died before Christ came to earth that were of God and will be in that group.


I don't know about you, but I personally can count way beyond the trillions!!

Zillions, gazillions, I could make up many words to be symbolic of whatever number needed to be achieved!!


teeeehee

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
 Quoting: HardTruth


While you make a good point about comprehension of numbers, the engineer in me wants to point out the time involved in actually numbering or counting people is finite.

A single person counting 1 person a second as an example could spend an entire biblical cap lifetime of 120 years and only count 120*365*24*60*60 = 3.784 billion.

Realistically, a number that no man could number is not but so big.
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE "RAPTURE"
the rapture is pre-tribulation. There is no doubt about it. Those who think it will be post trib or even mid-trib secretly just think they deserve to have God's wrath poured out on them. But we are not appointed to wrath. We are justified in His image.

"Who wouldn't want to escape the wrath of God?" All of us, of course. Who deserves to go through all of it? All of us of course. But His blood sanctified us and made us whole with Him, those of us who have called on His blood to be saved, that is. THOSE folks will not go thru the tribulation for even one moment. The bible is crystal clear on this.

Jack Kelley posted part one of a thorough examination of the Pre-Trib rapture from Old testament scriptures this week.

Next week will be the same, but from New Testament. But the most important reason we will not be here, as weíll see, is that God said we wonít be here. Those who teach the Churchís presence on Earth during any part of Danielís70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.


Rapture References
This Weekís Feature Article by Jack Kelley
[link to gracethrufaith.com]

Recently I was challenged to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-trib rapture. As you may know I believe Paul was the first person on Earth to present a clear pre-trib teaching, about 20 years after the cross. Before that time it was unknown because Jesus didnít teach it to His other disciples during their time together. And since the Olivet Discourse is directed at Israel, thereís no mention of it there either, even though the end times is in view. Israel will not participate in the rapture.

Now Iíll be the first to admit that doing this requires that you already have a working knowledge of the pre-trib position, because without it you wouldnít recognize some of these references as being pertinent to the subject. But ever since Paul revealed the rapture, scholars have been seeing hints of it here and there, even in the Old Testament.

Before we begin, in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 Paul explained why Godís plans for the church had been kept secret until after the crucifixion. He said that if the rulers of this age (Satan & Co.) had understood all that God intended for us they would not have crucified the Lord. Not that they could have stopped it, of course. But had they known God was going to use the murder of His Son to save us all, they wouldnít have gone ahead with it, and in fact would have tried to prevent it. It wasnít until He was on the cross that they discovered the Lordís death was going to become payment in full for all our sins, so instead of it being cause for a great celebration it totally disarmed them and made them into a public spectacle (Colossians 2:13-15). Then, 20 years later, they learned about the rapture. These were both things that God had planned from the beginning, but a good general keeps his strategy a secret in order to take his enemy by surprise, so God didnít let Satan (or anyone else) know about these things until it was too late for him to react. Even now, Satan doesnít know when the rapture is coming. All he knows is what we know, that each new believer could be the last one, the one that takes us all out of here and beyond his reach forever.

Iím convinced that Godís plan requires the Church to disappear before Danielís 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24) At the end of 69 weeks (483 years) Jesus was crucified, the clock suddenly stopped, and Israel disappeared along with its Temple and Old Covenant worship. Danielís prophecy was left incomplete and from that time on, Godís focus was on the church.

The reappearance of Israel in 1948, the promised rebuilding of a Temple, and resumption of Levitical sacrifice during the 70th week make it clear that the Church didnít end the dispensation of Law but only interrupted it seven years short of its intended duration. We would all agree that if the introduction of a dam into a stream of water interrupts its flow, then itís reasonable and logical to conclude that removal of the dam will be necessary for the flow to resume. Therefore if the introduction of the Church after the 69th week of Daniels prophecy caused the interruption in its fulfillment, itís reasonable and logical to conclude that the Church will have to be removed before the final seven years of the dispensation of Law can run their course and Danielís prophecy can be fulfilled.

Of course there are other sound reasons why the church has to disappear before the End Times begin in earnest. Not having a destiny on Earth, our presence here would serve no purpose during the time of Earthís liberation from bondage (Romans 8:19-21). Not being subject to judgment the Church has no unfinished business with God that could be concluded during the End Times. Unlike Israel we donít need to be made righteous because weíre already as righteous as God is (2 cor. 5:21).

Jeremiah 30:11 says the End time judgments will serve a two fold purpose, to completely destroy all the nations among which Israel has been scattered and to discipline Israel. Since God does not consider the Church to belong to either group our presence on Earth during that time would be irrelevant.

But the most important reason, as weíll see, is that God said we wonít be here. Those who teach the Churchís presence on Earth during any part of Danielís70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.

With that introduction, letís look at some of the clearest hints God placed in the Scriptures to show He has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Naturally, weíll begin in the Old Testament.
Enoch Disappeared

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away. (Genesis 5:24)

In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46)

But if you give the Lordís statement its widest possible application, you can see that as the time of the Great Flood drew near there were 3 kinds of people on Earth. There were the unbelievers who perished in the flood, Noah and his family who were preserved through it, and Enoch, who was taken by the Lord well before it.

Just so, as the End of the Age draws near there will still be three kinds of people on Earth. They are the unbelievers of our time who will perish in the End Times judgments, modern Israel who will be preserved through them, and the Church who will be taken by God well before they begin.

There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, ďGo and make disciples (students) of all men.Ē (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. Itís the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.
Lot Had To Leave Sodom

But flee there quickly, because I can not do anything until you reach it. (Genesis 19:23)

Abraham had struck a bargain with the Lord that if even 10 righteous people could be found in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the cities. The fact that the cities were destroyed indicates 10 righteous people could not be found there. But there was one, and though He wasnít bound to do it, the Lord instructed the angels to get Lot out of town before commencing their judgment. Peter referred to Lotís rescue from Sodom as evidence that the Lord does not judge the righteous with the wicked (2 peter 2:7-9) Lot therefore becomes a model of the Church, who with a righteousness imputed by faith, has to be removed from the time and place of judgment before it begins.
Where Was Daniel?

Daniel 3 contains one of the most popular childrenís stories of the Old Testament. Many donít realize that itís also one of the clearest models of the End Times anywhere in the Bible. King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Danielís three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon.

But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you donít know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you donít know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story itís as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.
Isaiah Said It Best

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. (Isaiah 26:19-21)

Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lordís intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It canít be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it canít be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of Godís wrath, not before it. (Daniel 12:1-2)

Some day soon a group of people will suddenly rise from the dead. Another group, still living, will be whisked away to rooms prepared for them to be hidden from the time of Godís wrath. Then the Lord will punish the people of the Earth for their sins. The fact that the groups being resurrected and hidden are not objects of his wrath is indicated by the switch from second person (resurrected and hidden) to third person (punished). Notice how similar the wording is to 1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paulís teaching on the rapture.

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

Itís appropriate to insert John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about.

In my Fatherís house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His fatherís house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)

Iím convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said ďAccording to the Lordís own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.ď (1 Thes. 4:15). I say this because with the exception of 1 Thes 4:16-17 there is no passage in all the Bible that so clearly describes the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

This is not the sum of Old Testament verses that point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But itís a good sample of the clearest ones, to help you see that God always intended to take us to be with him before He unleashes the End Times judgments upon the unbelieving Earth. Next time weíll take a similar survey of the New Testament. See you then.
 Quoting: Dread Pirate Roberts

This is intersting and makes me think. But what do we make of this scriptures then?

Matthew 24:29-31 (King James Version)

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
HardTruth

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9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!

I would submitt that there were many who died before Christ came to earth that were of God and will be in that group.


I don't know about you, but I personally can count way beyond the trillions!!

Zillions, gazillions, I could make up many words to be symbolic of whatever number needed to be achieved!!


teeeehee

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


While you make a good point about comprehension of numbers, the engineer in me wants to point out the time involved in actually numbering or counting people is finite.

A single person counting 1 person a second as an example could spend an entire biblical cap lifetime of 120 years and only count 120*365*24*60*60 = 3.784 billion.

Realistically, a number that no man could number is not but so big.
 Quoting: Elijah


Sure, but time is an Earthly matter, time is irrelevant in the spiritual realms!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
IM4GOD

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9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Hmmm, this doesn't sound like a destination for the masses from a religion that preaches that the road to salvation is such a very, very narrow path!!

Which no man could number, this sounds very much like everybody gets there!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!


Addendum:

The numbers of the christian religion surly can be counted by men, as well as all the peoples of Earth at this moment!!

So the statement of "no man can number" must be millions of years still to go!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
 Quoting: HardTruth


Ah but HT who said that GOD was only talking about the living? Don't forget that the dead will also rise from the ground as well
Praise GOD almighty
Elijah

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Sure, but time is an Earthly matter, time is irrelevant in the spiritual realms!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!
 Quoting: HardTruth


Also a relevant point, but thought I'd throw that in there.

I think the number of people that disappear between the 4th seal and the 1st trumpet is 25% of the total population at the time which if it happened today is about 1.5 billion. That number alone would take a lifetime to realistically count given the constraints of time.

I think it's important to look at it from the perspective we know, but you are right; we can't use that idea as any form of proximity sensor.
Anonymous Coward
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metaphors! metaphors! u people keep on taking the bible literally... there is no rapture! the bible is talking about a dna upgrade. the bible is a book about astrology dear dear me!
homemommy

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Are you all saying there is no one in Heaven right now?
IM4GOD

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I would welcome feed back on this subject. Thanks


totally wrong and yes it appears that you are in the mindset of a JW But to help clear thingss up a bit for you, the 144.000 is not the ones to be raptured but those chosen to keep the word of GOD going on the earth.If you learn to read and understand the Bible you would see that! I will quote a few passages for you to show your error

Interesting! A couple of questions though. starting with (1) Where does the the bible tell us that the 144,000 is to keep the word of god going on the earth? other than as I mentioned would return with god to establish his thosand year reign on earth? (2) Are you suggesting the Rapture is for all saved and is a pre-trib event? Thanks for your feed back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676


I wish to extend an apoligy about that fact but yet to show there is nothing in the Bible that points to only 144,000 only ascending to heaven but I did take note that those sealed by GOD of the 144,000 are the ones that remained pure and without blemish those who haven't given in to carnal lusts such as for sex or money but also I could provide evidence to state that the believers in whole will meet up with GOD in the clouds.
But as for the passage of what you were referring to I have that too

Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Praise GOD almighty
Anonymous Coward
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Are you all saying there is no one in Heaven right now?
 Quoting: homemommy

I do not believe that anyone is in hevean other than the angels at this point and time.
IM4GOD

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Interesting! A couple of questions though. starting with (1) Where does the the bible tell us that the 144,000 is to keep the word of god going on the earth? other than as I mentioned would return with god to establish his thosand year reign on earth? (2) Are you suggesting the Rapture is for all saved and is a pre-trib event? Thanks for your feed back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796676


Here is what I found for you pertaining to your search for right answers

Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Praise GOD almighty
IM4GOD

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Are you all saying there is no one in Heaven right now?

I do not believe that anyone is in hevean other than the angels at this point and time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 879019


There are more than just angels in heaven what about the souls of the dearly departed? How about GOD and the Holy trinity? How about the saints in heaven? You see angels are angels but souls that have passed from the plains of earth are diffferent! Souls aren't actual angels they in a sort are above angels.
Praise GOD almighty
HardTruth

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Are you all saying there is no one in Heaven right now?

I do not believe that anyone is in hevean other than the angels at this point and time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 879019


The universe has always been here and it's full of life and always has been!!

What you're saying is that heaven only awaits humans from Earth, I don't think so!!

___________

If it expects or demands worship, it is not divine!!





GLP