Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?

Gal. 1:20 - Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I LIE NOT.


Rom. 9:1 -I say the truth in Christ, I LIE NOT, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost

II Cor. 11:31 - The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I LIE NOT.

I Tim. 2:7 - Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and LIE NOT;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

LIARS always try to convince people they aren't lying.

Paul was a evil asshole...even condoned the murder of those that opposed him.
I Cor. 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I Tim. 1:20 -Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

It's no wonder many christians are bloodthirsty warmongers wanting to wage war on those that oppose their beliefs.

Studying the many, many contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and Paul was the first step that led me to exiting the evil religion of christianity. There is a total disconnect between Paul and Jesus as there is between Jesus and the evil god Yahweh. Peace.

Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ and profess to it is no friend of yours. He or She is on Satan's payroll. After all they like where they are headed -> toward eternal death.

Anyone who refutes the validity of the Word of God, The Bible is no christian for we base our beliefs first on FAITH and then on the Word of God that teaches and shows us who He is.

Remember well and mark well the wolves on this board and thread that show their true colors.

You will know them by their fruit.

Those who deny the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Creator and God and those who Deny the Word of God and the written Word, The Bible.

These will be tests for you to show who are the liars and evil-workers who spread iniquity and deceit.

I have noticed over the last 10 years or so that those who attack Paul, usually go on to attack the rest of the bible. In other words liars, who are only pretending to be Christians.

Using the brain God gave you and questioning the validity of certain things in the bible is NOT the same as questioning the divinity of Jesus.

Get it right. Has it ever occurred to you that you may be worshiping a book and not Christ, the Creator?

You're not making any sense, Gradient. I am questioning the writings of ONE MAN. Not the gospel or the OT or the rest of the NT.

You are holding up a book to have the same force as the actual words of Christ. I say that it is heartbreaking and borders on idolatry when people worship the Bible instead of the Creator.

I agree about the folly of Bible worship. Jesus had the gift of prophecy, and he never said anything about accepting the final mishmash presented (in English) before the endtimes as God's word.

Decisions over which books to include and exclude were political. As we grow closer to God, we can develop discernment, and sense the presence or lack of spiritual truth. God willing.

Of course, everyone will always argue about it. It's like peace in the Middle East--don't hold your breath.

I like Paul.

Myth # 7. To know the Bible is to understand it.
The Bible is probably the most misquoted book in existence. Paul is probably the most misquoted person ever. The Bible was written by living oracles of God to people who were accustomed to and accepting of the principle of contemporary revelation from God. The counsel and guidance the apostles gave were to people who had a shared understanding. It makes no sense to preach grace to those who haven't repented, been baptized, and had a remission of their sins. It doesn't add up to teach about spiritual gifts and the fruits of the spirit to those who have no right to them. The scriptures don't ask the reader to accept Christ as a personal Savior or to make a commitment for Christ, because it is addressed to those who had already accepted Christ by covenant.

The cafeteria-style doctrinal approach of contemporary Christian churches is the result of their rejection of modern revelation as a possibility. Without revelation to guide, one must try to cobble together some theology by picking and choosing what fits into one's world view and reject the rest as "metaphors" or "symbolism.

Thread: Myths About the Bible - UPDATE = Add Myth # 8 - doctors of Mythology respond?

3*8**

Thanx Riker. My sentiments. God is too big to be put in a Book called the Bible.

OP doesn't you don't have your facts.

There were 12 Desciples who followed the Lord Jesus Christ and there were many Apostles read the N.T.

I could use another batch of
those fabulous cannon balls.


Myth 8. The Bible is common ground in missionary work

[link to www.youtube.com]


This statement applies especially to Latter-day Saints. We often assume that the Bible is the common ground from which we can build understanding. If there was any semblance of agreement in modern Christianity, do you think there would be a thousand quarreling sects and denominations?  Joseph Smith went into the grove to pray because he came to the conclusion that it was impossible to find out which Church he should join by studying the Bible alone. This is a true statement.

In this "war of words" and "contest of opinions" that rages in Christendom, the only way to find the truth is to "ask of God." (James 1:5) Thus the Book of Mormon becomes the preeminent tool for conversion. It offers clear and plain gospel teachings free of sectarian interpretations. It clarifies the Bible's teachings and helps identify the interpolations of men. 

It also identifies to the sincere seeker, where and how to locate the conduit of personal revelation for himself, independent of anyone or anything else. - [link to www.examiner.com]

3*8**

Yahushua (Jesus) said that false prophets come in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. He said we would know them by their "fruit". (Matt 7:15-20) The fruit of a true prophet or apostle is their teaching. The Bible is a book of words or teachings. The True Word is the fruit of the true prophets.

However, the Bible has also been influenced by man. It's not "infallible". The Bible is not to be an idol of worship. There are both wheat and tares in the Bible, and our Father in Heaven expects us to carefully examine the fruit (words) to determine the original source -- whether the doctrine is from Yahweh (God) or man. Interestingly, the exact center verses of the entire Bible state it is better to trust in Yahweh (God) than in man and princes. (See Psalms 118:8-9)

Yahweh Elohim (LORD God) told Moses we are to check the teachings of the prophet against what Moses received. If the prophet teaches something different than what was told to Moses, promoting others gods, then were are to reject him, even if miracles occur or prophecies come to pass (See Deut 13:1-5). Yahushua' (Jesus') teachings pass that test as the Messiah. He obeyed the instructions of the law and prophets and taught others to do the same. (Matt 5:17-19) His doctrine is to keep the commandments of the Father given to Moses.

Regarding false teachers in "sheep's clothing", Yahushua (Jesus) says grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles. A good tree does not bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree does not bring forth good fruit. (Matt 7:15-20) Likewise, James said a spring does not produces salt water (James 3:12) It is quite clear in context of James Chapter 3 that James is using the teachings of Yahushua on the fruit of our words to identify the false apostle Paul. He is writing about Paul’s uncontrollable tongue and the war of words in the body. He paraphrases Yahushua (Jesus) teaching on false prophets: “Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?” (James3:12) Certainly, James is referencing the doctrines of Paul that were being hotly contested in the body. However, being instructed by the Master to not pull out the tares lest the young wheat be hurt, he carefully words his teachings without making accusations directed toward Paul.

Apparently, members were fighting over the Word and verbally “cursing” others based on Paul’s direction. Paul wrote, “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:9) This cursing behavior of the tongue is clearly something Paul taught regularly, since he is repeating what he said before. In contrast, James says that cursing and blessing should not be coming out of the same mouth. (James 3:10)

Thus, the words/doctrine that someone teaches (or speaks) either comes from Yahweh Elohim (LORD God) or it does not. It is black and white. There are no grey areas. By their fruit, or by the teachings and doctrines they promote, we shall know the true prophets from the false ones. Based on that standard, Paul's teachings fail the test of a true prophet or apostle. His doctrine is salt water, not fresh water.

To come in "sheep's clothing" obviously means the false prophet or apostle claims to be a follower of the Messiah and our Heavenly Father, the Elohim of Israel. They reference scripture. Yet, the false teacher inwardly is mostly interested in using believers for his own purposes. Thus, Paul continually claims to be "an apostle" (sheep's clothing) but inwardly he had an agenda to feel better about himself by making more converts believe in *his* view of scripture. That is clearly seen in his writings. He uses the pronoun "I" three times more than any other Biblical writer, for example.

One need only check each quote Paul uses from the Old Testament and then compare it with what the scripture actually says in context to conclude his interpretations do not pass the test of truth. He obsessively misquotes scripture. For example, Paul quotes Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3 "..there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:12). The True Scripture is referring to the wicked who do not believe in God (read it yourself--the context). Paul, however, perverts and twists the original Word to mean "all people" are unrighteous. Another example is Hab 2:4. Paul writes: "The just shall live by faith". The Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint record: "The just shall live by *My* faith." By omitting the pronoun *My*, Paul converts the true meaning of scripture from Yahweh's faith to man's faith.

This is only two examples of many. In almost all his references to the Old Testament, he either misquotes or misinterprets the truth of the Word. Thus, his teaching is salt water, not fresh water.

Don’t take my word for it. Compare Paul’s salt water with the pure water of Old Testament Hebrew and/or Greek Septuagint translation. A good tree does not produce bad fruit.

Paul stands on his own false teachings. His bad fruit is from his own misguided views. Yahweh put Paul's teachings in the Bible to test his people whether they will obey his Word or man's teachings, even sending signs and wonders with the teaching. He said he would do this in Duet 13:1-5. We are commanded by Yahweh to be circumcised. Paul says its optional. Who do we follow?

I'm sorry maybe I'm dumb, but what does that pic have to do with anything. In fact I see you post pictures of women all the time, your not a dike are you?

Amen,

From what I've seen we are arguing about whether certain were in fact called by Jesus. Remember brethren, it is through Jesus and Jesus alone that we are saved. None of us can make claim to being perfect. We are only saved by the the sacrifice of the Lamb. Does that negate the Law, no, but none can fully follow it, otherwise there would be no need for the Sacrifice.
Do not worship the Book, reference it. The Book does not save. It is the word on how to and to sustain in some ways, some of us have bad memories.
The Spirit is here to really help us along and to guide us, so if I have a question I ask.

Grace to you all and peace be with you. Glory to the Son of God

Well your friend is wrong. Check history. The ROMAN EMPORER Constantine is who changed the sabbath.

However it sounds like YOUR FRIEND is seeking to "mislead goy from workshipping YHVH in full"...

Amen, Glory to God and to his Son

I'm not sure what all the clapping is all about, using black and white pictures...but I can say, that Paul did not quote the Old Testament correctly, and the two examples provides demonstrates his doctrines are not in harmony with what Moses received, and therefore, we should reject him as a representantive of Yahweh based on Deut 13:1-5. The correct doctrine is "The just shall live by MY faith". It is a black and white answer. A spring does not produce both fresh water and salt water. Yahweh does not command his people to be BOTH physically and spiritually circimcised in the Old Testament, and then, change it with Paul's teachings. The Messiah was circumcised by physically and spiritually.

Also, the Bible records instances in which Yahweh called men righteous (200 places in scripture) before the Messiah's death payment. Only unbelievers are "wicked" and "do not do good", as the scripture records..."no one (the wicked) do good..." It does not say "all people" like Paul claims.

Mercy existed for man before the death of the Messiah. Mercy has always existed in the heart of the Father.

The fruit of a prophet or apostle is their teaching, and Paul's teaching is not the same as Moses. Thus, Paul excuses his own sin (Romans 8) and teaches circumicision is optional. The early Yahushua Assembly in Jerusalem were zealous at keeping the law of Moses, including circumcision, and the temple rites and festivals as recorded in Acts 21.

We are not "justified by faith" as Paul taught. Rather, we are justified by **Yahweh's** faith and His promises in His covenant. The covenant itself is righteous, not Abraham's faith.

Abraham's faith failed him when he finally was told he would have a son through Sarah. (See Gen 15-18) In fact, he suggested to Yahweh that Hagar's son Ishmael should be the heir instead. Yahweh had to correct Abraham's unrighteous "belief" and remind him of the righteous COVENANT he had made. A year later, Yahweh birthed the promised child Isaac in spite of Abraham's unbelief. Thus, Paul's teachings in Roman's 4 is not an accurate intepretation of what is written in the Old Testament.

Gen 15:6 should be translated: "Abraham believed Yahweh, and the promise was accounted unto Yahweh as righteousness." Then later in the chapter, Yahweh cuts the covenant with a dead animal and proved where the righteousness resides -- in his promised covenant, and not in Abraham's belief. Abraham was sleeping during the cutting of the covenant, represening his own death. THus, Yahweh promised him a resurrection based on Abraham's obedience up to that point in time. Thus, he made the "death and resurrection" covenant with Abraham. Abraham then rested in that promise after the dream/vision.

And thus, Paul's teachings of "justification by man's faith" is false. He was a false apostle.

That last post was from me. Sorry, I forgot to put my name on it.

If you have an issue with riker or females ,and if you have been born again, then you should know what to do.... fix it.

Paul was a false apostle yes, he told false shit. the apostles were not the beings the church made them to be. They were the friends of jesus, not great teachers, they were LOUSY teachers in fact. Jesus brother James was a far better teacher.

And Judas was his BEST friend who went to India after the crucifixion with him. Judas was his scribe. He was NOT the betrayer. the betrayer had a similar name and the church blew that up the wrong way. There were NO betrayers amongst his friends.

And who WROTE the bible??
the CATHOLIC church, a.k.a.: The Holy Roman Empire!!

they used a religion to attempt ruling the world, an Empire that you folks wish to still be slaves in, and that is truly sad!

Ananias also had a vision telling him that Paul will be Visiting him. So when paul was told to go to Ananias house , they were already waiting for him. It is in acts 9.

Paul spread the gospel message of freedom in Christ, which
UPSET the Judaizers, and they did what they could to
DISCREDIT Paul. Although at the Jerusalem Council in
Acts 15, it was decided that Gentiles did not need to live
as Jews to follow Christ, there still was conflict on the
issue.

These are some of the beliefs the Judaizers used to
give the image of Paul preaching a false message, and what
Paul said in his own defense of the gospel message.

The Judaizers said that Paul had no regard for the Law of
Moses. Paul responded by explaining the purpose of the law.
The law shows people where they have sinned. In realizing
their sin, his message of the gospel encouraged the people
to depend on Christ and not on themselves, because if they
thought they could be sinless by living right, they were
mistaken. They were unable to live a sinless able because
of their humanity. (Galatians 3)

The Judaizers said that Paul was a traitor to the Jewish
faith. Paul responded by explaining his zeal for the Jewish
faith. It is because of his zeal for the Jewish faith that
he was put in the position where God met him on the
Damascus Road and was transformed. Paul took great pride in
persecuting the church of The Way putting people in prison
and sending them to their deaths. He fought hard against
Christianity because he was raised in the Law of Moses and
believed it thoroughly.

The Judaizers said that Paul stretched the truth of the
gospel so more people would follow him. The apostles
responded by supporting the truth of Paul's message by
giving him the right hand of fellowship. They entrusted him
with the evangelizing of the Gentiles. Also, Titus, who was
a Greek, would not get circumcised showing alliance with
the true gospel message that Paul preached.
(Galatians 2:1-10)

The Judaizers said that Paul was taking the truth and
changing it to meet his own goals. He was accused of being
a man pleaser rather than a God pleaser. Paul responded by
saying that he received the gospel message directly from
Jesus. (Galatians 1:11-12)

Nope. The scriptures were in circulation long before the catholic church.

AWESOME POST!

Actually that is a utterly horrible translation. The Greek makes it very much more Clear.

Shimon Keffa warns "Brothers, I am warning you before you even read his letters. Be on your guard! Lest you are carried away by the error of TORAHLESS NESS.

Keffa was giving a warning that if you take one word of Paul's letters as a excuse to not keep the Torah you could kiss your ticket to heaven goodbye.

I just saw this Morons reply to my post and thought I would take a minute to address this. This is a perfect example of the utter stupidity that is going on within mainstream christianity. People have built their "Faith" on a foundation of Sand, and have zero idea why they believe what they believe. They just believe something because that is what their moronic preacher has told them. And the majority of these idiots have never even sat down and read the Scriptures (Besides the verse or two their religious leaders have them read)

My replies will be in red. The religious brain dead person's comments will be in black.

Nonsense..I couldn't bear repeating that legalistic diatribe..your kosher meat" is "teaching" that God has given and empowered..that feeds your spirit man and transforms you. Even your carnal childlike interpretation flies in the face of Peter's dream..when he would eat "unclean" food when instructed to do so. Food is knowledge.."I am the bread of life,eat of me,I am the manna of heaven, God has prepared a banquet for me in the midst of my enemies"..etc. etc. etc.

Nonsense? Did you even bother to read my post? I speak and read Koine Greek you moron. Secondly if you would bother to read Shimon Keffa's entire vision you would see it is about CALLING OTHER RACES UNCLEAN, THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH UNCLEAN FOODS. IN FACT THE ACCOUNT PROVES KEFFA NEVER ATE UNCLEAN FOODS WITH THE MESSIAH, AND STILL REFUSED TO EAT THEM AFTER HE DIED! HE EVEN REFUSED TO EAT THEM AFTER SEEING THIS VISION!

This is a perfect example of religious control. When a christian reads the Torah and the Prophets and is convicted about unclean foods, instead of just obeying the Creator and eating what he says to eat, they run to their religious guru who tells them to look up just a few verses. THE ENTIRE PREMISE IS BASED UPON YOU BEING TOO STUPID TO READ THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT.

You said "I am the bread of life", let me let you in on something. For thousands of years Hebrew people every time they broke bread would say "Blessed are you O YHWH our Elohim, King of the Universe, who makes bread come from the Earth". This prayer was taught to Abraham and passed down. When the Messiah said "I am the bread of life", and then broke bread in their presence, he was teaching them he was the fulfillment of something they practiced for thousands of years.

Paul had the mind of Christ..he knew the parable,the metaphor,the underlying truth in the stories. Literal interpretation is the way of legalism and fanaticism. So pray that God sends someone to seal you against religious error.

The word "Christ" never appears in the oldest text. There was always a placeholder. Christ means to drug someone. That is why the RX symbol is on every pharmacy you see. Chrestus is the proper greek term which means "A upright servant who does the will of his Master". They same as Mesa'Yah. Christ is a term THAT WAS USED BY THE PAGAN GREEKS, THEY CALLED ALL THEIR FALSE GODS CHRIST.

Secondly OBEYING THE CREATOR IS NEVER LEGALISM

1 John 3:4 defines sin as "Transgression of the Torah". Legalism is OBEYING MAN MADE RELIGIOUS FLAMING HOOPS RATHER THEN OBEYING THE CREATOR. You might want to take a gander over and actually pick up and read the Book of Revelations. 3 Times it lets you know ONLY THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF MESSIAH ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE.

God would have preserved His word accurately. It's a promise and He wouldn't be God if He couldn't do it and would lie. This is despite anyone's intentions when translating..whatever any translator's hidden motives were, God would make the end result to be true. Logically, this would be true in the translation that God knew most people throughout history would read..so that the maximum souls would be taught correctly. That's why I use the King James version to confirm what God says to me.
(Worthy is the Lamb to open the book, I Myself will shepherd My sheep, He has sent the Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth, My sheep hears My voice..etc. etc..etc.)

Some how it does not surprise me you are a KJV only idiot. You will remain in spiritual stupidity your entire life with a King James. In fact one reason alot of these people on this very thread are questioning Paul is because of the utter translation bias in Paul's letters in the KJV. It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not speak, cannot read, nor even take a the time to do some in depth study with a Concordance or Lexicon insist the KJV is perfect. Let me let you in on something. In Matthew Chapter 7 when your Bible says "Depart from me you workers of Iniquity", THE GREEK SAYS "DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO ARE WITHOUT TORAH

It is that infiltration of Pharaism (now known as Judaism) that has made organized religion the new "lost sheep" of the nation that Christ remade..not substituted..remade!

This really shows your ignorance. Pharisaism has zero to do with the Torah. Pharisaism is about the Talmud. They called it the Oral Torah. They added and subtracted to the Scriptures with thousands upon thousands of man made religious laws and traditions. Until you understand the religious battle between these men and the Messiah YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE RENEWED COVENANT

Like most brain dead uneducated christians though, you equate the Talmudic writings with the Torah, and you equate the religion of the Pharisees with the religion that YHWH established.

"And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Jeremiah 18:4 ...

Once again you show your ignorance. There is one prophecy for the renewed Covenant. THE RENEWED COVENANT IS THE TORAH WRITTEN UPON YOUR HEART. IT IS THE EXACT SAME LAW, IT IS JUST WRITTEN ON YOUR HEART INSTEAD OF ON STONE.

The mother of Harlots is not Rome..it's ancient Babylon. The captive Jews picked error up during the captivity..or at least their religious leaders led them into this cabala apostasy. (remember Ezekial's vision) Acts tells us the church in Jerusalem let judaizers in..Paul cursed them..(a different gospel,another Jesus) and that church was destroyed in 70 A.D. The reemergence of "Judeo-Christianity" came with the establishment of Catholicism. (dagon hats,colored robes,goddess worship,skullcaps..a history of formenting crusades,inquisitions,etc.-get the picture,it was a disguise from the beginning)Protestantism was then infiltrated in 1830 when they embraced a rapture fairy tale. That lie is based on exalting the aforementioned Pharisaic/Babylon religion as "God's chosen" (someone has to be saved after the "christians" float off.) They gave up their birthright as the Israel of God.

Once again you show your utter ignorance. Rome is virtually pure Babylonian sun god worship. Protestants are "Protesting Catholics" You might want to figure out just what Babylonian sun god worship is. Once you do I can guarantee you will never set foot in a christian church again in your life. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE MESSIAH WAS A TORAH OBSERVANT JEW, WHO ATE KOSHER, KEPT THE SABBATHS, KEPT THE FEAST, WORE TZITZITS, AND COMMANDED HIS FOLLOWERS TO DO AND TEACH THE LEAST OF THE TORAH. Messiah Yahuwshua rejected the man made religious traditions of man, HE DID NOT REJECT THE TORAH.

They went against the teachings of Paul.("He who is a Jew is one inwardly",to believers "we are the Israel of God"
They went against Jesus who told the teacher with the "correct" lineage and background "know you not that you must be born again".

There are 2 words in the Greek that are both translated as "Born" The first means the moment a man inseminates a woman. The second means the moment the baby passes through a birth canal. You are BEGOTTEN again. You are not "Born again" until you receive a new body. Just like Messiah was the "First Born" from the dead in his new body.

Accept Christ died for you,then let Him live for you.

I not only accept the Messiah. I obey him. I obey his command to DO AND TEACH THE LEAST OF THE TORAH. If you reject this command and call people who obey the Messiah a "legalist" do not sit around and pretend you a followers of the Messiah. Just admit you are in fact Anti-Messiah and reject his teachings and obey your religious leaders instead

Sir I suggest you take the time to get informed, to educate yourself, and to stop drinking the religious koolaid served by your favorite christian church.

Modern Christianity = Paulism period. Learn your history people.