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Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?

 
mathetes

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02/25/2010 03:59 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I never said I rejected the Bible. We are talking about Paul in particular.


 Quoting: Riker

Your missing the point...Luke who wrote the Gospel bearing his name and The Acts of the Apostles testified that Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ..Peter said that Paul's epistles(letters) are scripture.

You have a very personal bias against the writings of Paul,if you were honest you would say so.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:00 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Is there another witness's testimony written that can confirm the vision was authentic?



No.
 Quoting: Riker

A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:00 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Oh thats so cute, the little girl thinks she's a grown up.
Do you need a diaper change dear? Shall I continue with your lesson in humility?



If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.
 Quoting: Riker



Your new age bullshit beliefs are tiring.

You believe in all that and that is good but when someone says the TRUTH and say those that don't believe in Jesus Christ are all going to hell, then you call them a liar, when the BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS THIS.

So again your exposed to the bullshit so-called christians you claim to be giving lip service to God because you only want to believe the "nice" parts about God.

I guess you don't believe in sin either and how everyone in the world basically fails your test eh?

Do you understand that? That all people no matter how "nice, compassionate, or kind" have sinned and are all going to hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord?

Is that HARD TRUTH not acceptible to you so you go off in your jaded little world of make believe christianity?
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:02 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I am not here to argue. In fact, YOU are hijacking an interesting thread with your rudeness which is quite annoying.



oh pooh pooh, why don't you cry some more?
As I said, if you can't handle what you dish out, don't serve it up.


What did I do to insult you so badly? Did you have a bad day or something?

Cause frankly you're being a fucking dickhead and that makes me think you deserved whatever you got in the past.



oh and what did I get in the past? Now you've stooped to cursing people. That's pretty low. How low can you get?
Shall we find out?


Are you threatening me?
 Quoting: Riker



Woah do you not comprehend the english language? That a huge leap you took there. Its kinda scary how you got to that place.

Makes me wonder how your really wired inside?
ZTE

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02/25/2010 04:02 PM

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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Before he had the vision, he stoned Christians to death.

After he had the vision, he dedicated his life to delivering the message of Yeshua.

Chances are his vision was more "authentic" then anything the pope has ever seen or done.

This is the image that the writers of the bible would have you believe........but it's very far from the truth!

Your first sentence, is actually more accurate to the nature of the kind of man Paul was! "Murderer of Christians" :(
 Quoting: ObeWayneKenobe



Being a Benjamite, I feel compelled to defend Paul. But I also know that he was a sinful man who made mistakes. He was not perfect. That said, I still believe he tried to live life by following the steps of Jesus. If Rome loved him so much, they probably wouldn't have fed him to the lions.
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:03 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Close. I believe in Christ and his word... but knowing what we do about govt's, politics, religions, etc. I do not blindly trust that we have the full truth. In fact, our Creator said that we are not capable of understanding, and I am very wary of anyone who claims to understand/know it all.



hahaha So you don't blindly trust and you don't believe in the Bible.

Then tell me smartass how do you find God without direction?
What pray tell do you hold as a standard to understand who Jesus Christ and God is if you REJECT THE BIBLE?


I never said I rejected the Bible. We are talking about Paul in particular.

Psalm 19:1-6

“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof”.


If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.
 Quoting: Riker


And what you don't get is IF YOU REJECT ONE PART OF THE BIBLE, YOU REJECT IT ALL.

God didn't give you a pick and choose book. He gave us a WHOLE BOOK, FULL OF HIS WORDS.

You accept ALL OF GOD or NONE.

Thats how it is sister.
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:04 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I c the little princess is now an authority on who Jesus Christ talks to.

My my is she putting herself on a high pedestal.



If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.
 Quoting: Riker



When someone rejects the Word of God as TRUTH, I kinda have a problem accepting that they are true believers in Christ :)
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:06 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
And what you don't get is IF YOU REJECT ONE PART OF THE BIBLE, YOU REJECT IT ALL.

God didn't give you a pick and choose book. He gave us a WHOLE BOOK, FULL OF HIS WORDS.

You accept ALL OF GOD or NONE.

Thats how it is sister.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


That is exactly what they did at nicea pick and choose which books to keep.
Rev. Spiralgazer

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02/25/2010 04:06 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
And you assume the Catholic Church back in 363 AD is the same as the Catholic Church NOW?

Aren't we a little biased here? As far as I can tell the Catholic Church back then was actually in line with the Word of God back then.

Do not blame that generation with the corrupt one you see now in the Catholic Church of TODAY.



The Catholic church was apostate from it's inception.



Ah and you get this from good authority I assume.

Did Jesus Christ Himself tell you this? Then if He didn't tell you, if I were you, I'd re-evaluate that conclusion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450




Thank you for your perspective.

I have been on a personal quest for the initial beliefs of the first followers of Jesus. During the process of this search, I have found the falling away to have begun before the end of the first century so, the great apostasy was fully established by the time Constantine founded the Catholic (universal) church.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

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Jodido

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02/25/2010 04:07 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I think God made Paul his bitch.

Think, what has been the purpose? Is it not to spread the word of god throughout the world? Was Paul not instrumental in that? Did Paul not suffer alot in doing it?

And its poetic justice that God did this not to one of the 12 apostles, but to an 'outsider'.

Do you not see the hand of God in that?

But one thing we are about to learn is that its not about worship, but love.

You see, we are about to go up, taking a step closer to god. This includes having more godlike knowledge.

God is real, and exists at all levels. Why, we even have the Bible at our level!

But realize we exist within God's creation. We are a part of it. Infact, existing on this planet, Earth, we are a bigger part than even you seemingly Jesus/Word of God believers realize.

I give you this: If Jesus, then Earth. What was Jesus?
3*8** aka MagiChristmas

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02/25/2010 04:08 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Paul was called by Jesus Christ as his testimoy specifically says so and it is included in the Word of God, The Bible.

Even the original Apostles acknowledged and accepted Paul.

I'd rather believe the original apostles than any of YOU people who were the authority, set up by Jesus Christ, for the Church.

Who exactly are YOU people to question this? To question the authority set up by Jesus Christ, God and Creator?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


Good observation by the OP yep

Organizational Structure of the Church

The Church is led by 15 apostles. The most senior apostle is the president of the Church, and he selects two other apostles as counselors. These three function as the First Presidency, which is the highest governing body of the Church. Twelve others form the Quorum of the Twelve — the second-highest governing body of the Church. Together, the First Presidency and the Twelve oversee the entire Church. Church members trace this organizational structure to the New Testament. - [link to newsroom.lds.org]

3*8**
The deception continues to crumble.
Thread: Tips for improving the GLP experience.
Christ was mischaracterized to the point of Crucifixion.
ObeWayneKenobe

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02/25/2010 04:09 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Being a Benjamite, I feel compelled to defend Paul. But I also know that he was a sinful man who made mistakes. He was not perfect. That said, I still believe he tried to live life by following the steps of Jesus. If Rome loved him so much, they probably wouldn't have fed him to the lions.
 Quoting: ZTE

You have a good point: however, Satan always gets rid of his servants, once he's through with them! IMHO :(

No, Paul(to this day) remains still confused.....and at the time of Jesus, no one man did more to confuse the real teaching of Christ, than did Paul! :(
Jodido

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02/25/2010 04:09 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Why, we even have the Bible at our level!


 Quoting: Jodido


But, and this should be enlightening, once we reach that next closer level to god, we will not longer need the Bible...
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:10 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
And what you don't get is IF YOU REJECT ONE PART OF THE BIBLE, YOU REJECT IT ALL.

God didn't give you a pick and choose book. He gave us a WHOLE BOOK, FULL OF HIS WORDS.

You accept ALL OF GOD or NONE.

Thats how it is sister.


That is exactly what they did at nicea pick and choose which books to keep.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016



The Church has the authority of Jesus Christ behind it. It is the Jesus Christ's own words that whatever is done on earth will be done in heaven. He gave that authority to the Church.

I'm sure Jesus was there personally picking out which books would go in the Bible, after all is not the one ruling the Church Jesus Christ? Is HE not the one that is the power behind us, who are the Church.

For it is by the authority given by the Son, Jesus Christ that the Church even exists.
Riker

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02/25/2010 04:10 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Did Paul ever really even meet Jesus other than his "vision"?

Is there another witness's testimony written that can confirm the vision was authentic?


Before he had the vision, he stoned Christians to death.

After he had the vision, he dedicated his life to delivering the message of Yeshua.

Chances are his vision was more "authentic" then anything the pope has ever seen or done.
 Quoting: ZTE


Perhaps he just found another way to attack true Christianity?
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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Riker

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02/25/2010 04:12 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Oh thats so cute, the little girl thinks she's a grown up.
Do you need a diaper change dear? Shall I continue with your lesson in humility?



If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.



Your new age bullshit beliefs are tiring.

You believe in all that and that is good but when someone says the TRUTH and say those that don't believe in Jesus Christ are all going to hell, then you call them a liar, when the BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS THIS.

So again your exposed to the bullshit so-called christians you claim to be giving lip service to God because you only want to believe the "nice" parts about God.

I guess you don't believe in sin either and how everyone in the world basically fails your test eh?

Do you understand that? That all people no matter how "nice, compassionate, or kind" have sinned and are all going to hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord?

Is that HARD TRUTH not acceptible to you so you go off in your jaded little world of make believe christianity?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450



New Age? Because I am speaking of the fruits of the Spirit?

How does that make sense?

I did not say being nice was the way to be saved. I said that the fruits of the Spirit are a way to know if someone is truly a follower of Christ.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:12 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Did Paul ever really even meet Jesus other than his "vision"?

Is there another witness's testimony written that can confirm the vision was authentic?


Before he had the vision, he stoned Christians to death.

After he had the vision, he dedicated his life to delivering the message of Yeshua.

Chances are his vision was more "authentic" then anything the pope has ever seen or done.


Perhaps he just found another way to attack true Christianity?
 Quoting: Riker

+1
SoldierofYah  (OP)

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02/25/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Yes, and if you were to 'get rid of Paul' then you would have to get rid of Peter, and Luke, and John Mark. And you would be left with somesystem that could very easily turn into a very great deal for the Christ rejecting Legalisms of not only the Law of Moses but also the emmense bondage and compliations of a ramp growth of law as per the Pharisees.

Oh, and if you get rid of Luke then you have to void Acts.

In other words you have gutted Christianity.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 715509


As mentioned before, there is strong evidence that Saul/Paul actually wrote the books of 1Peter and 2Peter.

And last I checked Mark and Luke were not Apostles....ie, not of the 12. That's not to say their accounts are not valuable. But to the extent that they may support Saul, that's damning to their credibility.

Yes, Saul/Paul wrote over half of what is now called the "New Testament". But if he is a false apostle, which all the evidence clearly demonstrates is the case, then all those books SHOULD be discarded.

It is NOT true that this "guts Christianity". What it does is PURIFY it, by removing the false doctrines.

Without Saul/Paul's books, you still have Matthew, John, 1John, James, Revelation, etc.

Whatever goes against what Yahshua taught should be discarded. End of story.

By the way, perhaps there were writings from many of the GENUINE Apostles that have been suppressed/destroyed, and obviously not included in the New Testament (ie, by Constantine and the Romans at Nicea, etc)

Last Edited by SoldierofYah on 02/25/2010 04:16 PM
Riker

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02/25/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I never said I rejected the Bible. We are talking about Paul in particular.



Your missing the point...Luke who wrote the Gospel bearing his name and The Acts of the Apostles testified that Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ..Peter said that Paul's epistles(letters) are scripture.

You have a very personal bias against the writings of Paul,if you were honest you would say so.
 Quoting: mathetes


Are you claiming to know my mind better than I do myself, mathetes?

hf

I've asked for specific quotes/verses very sincerely; I am just waiting for someone to follow through.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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Jodido

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02/25/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Is it my fault you do not know who/what I am?
Anonymous Coward
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02/25/2010 04:13 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Oh thats so cute, the little girl thinks she's a grown up.
Do you need a diaper change dear? Shall I continue with your lesson in humility?



If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.
 Quoting: Riker


Nobody becomes mature overnight. What you are saying is that if we're not perfect, we must not love Jesus. That is exactly what Paul talked about when he talked about the spirit vs. the flesh. It takes time to build the spirit enough to defeat the flesh, and then it takes constant upkeep.

None of us are perfect and never will be. Nor should we expect others to be perfect.
Riker

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02/25/2010 04:14 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Oh my we have a REVELATION. That's exactly right my dear, I and no one on this thread knows what you believe in because you've rejected the Bible and though you profess that you believe in Jesus, you don't exactly say how?

So far you've only told us what YOU believe in your made up little world about who Jesus is.

So how much of your actual believe in "made up" from you psychopathic ideas?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


Again, I never "rejected the Bible" and I do not believe that I am obligated to tell you "exactly how" I believe in Jesus when you have continually insulted me and you've been a total jerk.


Again:

If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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ZTE

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02/25/2010 04:14 PM

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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Being a Benjamite, I feel compelled to defend Paul. But I also know that he was a sinful man who made mistakes. He was not perfect. That said, I still believe he tried to live life by following the steps of Jesus. If Rome loved him so much, they probably wouldn't have fed him to the lions.
You have a good point: however, Satan always gets rid of his servants, once he's through with them! IMHO :(

No, Paul(to this day) remains still confused.....and at the time of Jesus, no one man did more to confuse the real teaching of Christ, than did Paul! :(
 Quoting: ObeWayneKenobe



Well, if you say that, then you could argue Peter was working for Satan, because he was crucified, or even Jesus. To me, I don't see anything wrong with Paul's writings, because I realize who his intended audience was.

Many people cannot read scientific articles, published in scientific journals. This is because those articles were not intended to be read by the public, but rather by their peers. So if you don't know to whom something is addressed, then there is a good chance you will not understand it, or misinterpret it.
drevenkaine

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02/25/2010 04:14 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
The only people who say this kind of garbage are the ones hell bent on paving their own road to heaven. Salvation is not works based get over yourselves. There is not one who does not fall short of the glory of God. Jesus himself is the propitiation, he's the ransom his blood bought and paid for. If you think there is something you can personally do to garner favour in Heaven than you personally are spitting Christs own Blood in his face.

Last Edited by drevenkaine on 02/25/2010 04:16 PM
All matter is energy condensed through vibration.
Riker

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02/25/2010 04:15 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Is there another witness's testimony written that can confirm the vision was authentic?



No.

A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554016


Exactly.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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Riker

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02/25/2010 04:16 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
oh and what did I get in the past? Now you've stooped to cursing people. That's pretty low. How low can you get?
Shall we find out?


Are you threatening me?



Woah do you not comprehend the english language? That a huge leap you took there. Its kinda scary how you got to that place.

Makes me wonder how your really wired inside?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


Pretty reasonable question, since you are an Anonymous Coward who has been trolling me and insulting me this entire thread.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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Riker

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02/25/2010 04:16 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Close. I believe in Christ and his word... but knowing what we do about govt's, politics, religions, etc. I do not blindly trust that we have the full truth. In fact, our Creator said that we are not capable of understanding, and I am very wary of anyone who claims to understand/know it all.



hahaha So you don't blindly trust and you don't believe in the Bible.

Then tell me smartass how do you find God without direction?
What pray tell do you hold as a standard to understand who Jesus Christ and God is if you REJECT THE BIBLE?


I never said I rejected the Bible. We are talking about Paul in particular.

Psalm 19:1-6

“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof”.


If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.


And what you don't get is IF YOU REJECT ONE PART OF THE BIBLE, YOU REJECT IT ALL.

God didn't give you a pick and choose book. He gave us a WHOLE BOOK, FULL OF HIS WORDS.

You accept ALL OF GOD or NONE.

Thats how it is sister.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


When did God or Jesus say that? Outside of the NT.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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ZTE

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02/25/2010 04:17 PM

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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
Perhaps he just found another way to attack true Christianity?
 Quoting: Riker



If he really wanted it to "die off" he just would have kept his mouth shut. It's like any thread on this forum. If there's a thread I don't like/agree with, I don't post on it. Because just by posting, you will draw more attention to the thread.

Even if you intentionally post disinformation on a thread, it will encourage people to search for the true information, because we are naturally curious.
mathetes

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02/25/2010 04:17 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I never said I rejected the Bible. We are talking about Paul in particular.



Your missing the point...Luke who wrote the Gospel bearing his name and The Acts of the Apostles testified that Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ..Peter said that Paul's epistles(letters) are scripture.

You have a very personal bias against the writings of Paul,if you were honest you would say so.


Are you claiming to know my mind better than I do myself, mathetes?

hf


 Quoting: Riker

Not at all...thats between you & God. But you do have a particular bias against Paul. Its up to you if you want to expound on the subject.

hf
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Riker

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02/25/2010 04:19 PM
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Re: Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?
I c the little princess is now an authority on who Jesus Christ talks to.

My my is she putting herself on a high pedestal.



If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.



When someone rejects the Word of God as TRUTH, I kinda have a problem accepting that they are true believers in Christ :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 882450


Now you're smiling at me? Weird.
You shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall set you free.
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